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RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 7:22:52 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Did you hear that the University laboratory has started advertising for lawyers for their experiments?....apparently there are some things a rat won't do.

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(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 7:23:07 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Don't worry, I don't take cases I cannot do. The thing about divorce law as a field, is that the law itself is much less important than the facts, the situation, and the personalities involved. In other words, what Gauge said is very pointed, "There's a biase against the man." What winchimes said about alimony in NJ was also illuminating. Its important to know how the facts are digested, because the courts have a huge range of discretion.

In family law you have what is known as a "factual pissing contest." What does this mean? Welll for one, think of child custody and visititation: the law is "the best interests of the child" with varying parameters under that. What real guidance does this offer a judge in making a decision? Well, it offers broad, broad guidance such that almost anything could conceivably happen.

In sum, domestic law is an area light on law, and heavy on facts and personalities.

I understand the resentment here v. lawyers, because they can exaserbate cases to drive up fees and litigation, but I also like to point out that clients call the shots, not lawyers. Lawyers advise and represent the client. Oftentimes lawyers are the most reasonable people involved, but I would never deny their financial interest in creating litigation in domestic cases.

What I said to the person in question here was, you need to get a resolution your spouse can live with, otherwise he won't honor it and you'll be back in court, which is a lose-lose situation. My focus in this area would be a viable long term solution for the person in question. The last thing one wants is a "Treaty of Versaille" divorce settlement."

Thanks for the feedback.

(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 8:01:49 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PenelopePitstop

I'm gatecrashing this thread as the child of a nasty divorce which gave both my parents nervous breakdowns. As result of the Divorce proceedings I did not see my father for 24 years and have only recently got in contact with him now.

What i want to say is please, please don't let egos get in the way of things. What happened was my mum's solicitor urged her not to grant my dad access until maintenance was paid, and my dad's solicitor urged him not to pay maintenance until access was granted. I expect you can see the outcome here: the lawyers got paid, forgot about us, my parents suffered independently and I lost a huge chunk of my childhood.

I'm sorry but it's going to take a lot to convince me that Lawyers care what's best for anyone except themselves.



This is a scenario that really makes my ass burn, when parents use the kids to punish the other parent. I'm really sorry you had to go through that, Penelope.

And yes, the lawyers kept that fire fueled well, to keep the money coming in.

(in reply to PenelopePitstop)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 8:10:06 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Don't worry, I don't take cases I cannot do. The thing about divorce law as a field, is that the law itself is much less important than the facts, the situation, and the personalities involved. In other words, what Gauge said is very pointed, "There's a biase against the man." What winchimes said about alimony in NJ was also illuminating. Its important to know how the facts are digested, because the courts have a huge range of discretion.

In family law you have what is known as a "factual pissing contest." What does this mean? Welll for one, think of child custody and visititation: the law is "the best interests of the child" with varying parameters under that. What real guidance does this offer a judge in making a decision? Well, it offers broad, broad guidance such that almost anything could conceivably happen.

In sum, domestic law is an area light on law, and heavy on facts and personalities.

I understand the resentment here v. lawyers, because they can exaserbate cases to drive up fees and litigation, but I also like to point out that clients call the shots, not lawyers. Lawyers advise and represent the client. Oftentimes lawyers are the most reasonable people involved, but I would never deny their financial interest in creating litigation in domestic cases.

What I said to the person in question here was, you need to get a resolution your spouse can live with, otherwise he won't honor it and you'll be back in court, which is a lose-lose situation. My focus in this area would be a viable long term solution for the person in question. The last thing one wants is a "Treaty of Versaille" divorce settlement."

Thanks for the feedback.


I agree with you here, cloudboy. The problem is that so many people rely on their attorneys to do all their thinking for them. They almost elevate them to "god" status..."My lawyer said"..."I'm going to call my lawyer"...."You'll be hearing from my lawyer"....

Unfortunately, if you need a lawyer to begin with, you are probably under a lot of mental stress, for whatever reason, and it's a relief to LET someone do a portion of your thinking for you. You become easy prey for the unscrupulous.

I know it's not fair to bash all lawyers, that a few make a bad name for everybody. I wish you luck, should you decide to persue this case.

Here are a couple links that might be helpful:

www.divorcesource.com/info/divorcelaws/states.shtml

www.divorcecentral.com/states/laws

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 8:13:52 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, cloudboy, I just read your profile and noted your location as Papua, New Guinea. Guess the U.S. divorce law sites won't help you much Should never make assumptions....

(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 8:54:40 AM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I understand the resentment here v. lawyers, because they can exaserbate cases to drive up fees and litigation, but I also like to point out that clients call the shots, not lawyers. Lawyers advise and represent the client. Oftentimes lawyers are the most reasonable people involved, but I would never deny their financial interest in creating litigation in domestic cases.


I am not here to bash lawyers as I have known throughout my life many a good and kind lawyer. Lawyers are a necessary evil in most cases. The financial interest on their end may be a motivating factor but if that is the case, that may not always be in the best interest of their clients.

I have followed my lawyers advice most of the time. I have tried to settle things with my ex (who is a few fries short of a Happy Meal) on my own and not bother with lawyers and court and expenses and shit like that. She has it in her head that anything my lawyer suggests or that I suggest is the worst thing for her and when she talks to her lawyer, they see it as an opportunity to squeeze more money out of her.

One last statement about lawyers. Lawyers are supposed to work for their clients, not for their bank accounts. It would seem that they have forgotten that.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 9:11:25 AM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

This is a scenario that really makes my ass burn, when parents use the kids to punish the other parent.


This really pisses me off. It happened to me when my parents divorced and it took a huge toll on me for decades after it.

When I got divorced I warned my wife not to involve the kids. I really do not want to trot out details here but this kind of forces my hand a little. There was a "Mediation" in my divorce. Things were brought up and it was pretty clear that the mediator was going to feed me to the wolves. When we got the decision by the mediator I found out that the court had stripped me of my parental rights. Parental rights and custody were never discussed in the mediation. I appealed the decision and the judge didn't want to hear anything about the case and he said it should go to a custody trial. I asked my lawyer what that meant and he told me. The second he said that the kids would have to testify I told him to drop it right there. My kids do not belong in the middle of my arguments with their mother. My issues are with her, not them. To this day the decision stands and I couldn't sign my kid into the hospital for an emergency legally if I wanted to.

It is a damn shame that adults will act like spoiled brats and the ones that really suffer the greatest trauma from that is the kids. I have never talked poorly about my ex to my children. When they have come to me and told me about one thing or another I have swallowed what I wanted to say in favor of supporting my ex in saying that she is their mother and they should respect her wishes.

I am going to stop writing because I am becoming frustrated.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to windchymes)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 10:05:47 AM   
pinioned14Me


Posts: 50
Joined: 1/22/2006
Status: offline 		I will only offer that the current systems framework is geared towards creating an adversarial climate in most cases. It fosters competition, greed, revenge and in many cases hatred .....(and that's just amongst the lawyers).

There is no indication in a majority of the cases that justice, "fair and equitable settlements" or the interests of the child are more than the mouthings of insincere journeymen legal tradespeople. I offer a sincere apology to all who practice law and do not dive into the septic tank in search of more ways to screw yet another unwary and oft times vulernable walking ATM.

I believe that lawyers, barristers, advocates, judges and mediators should all adopt the medical practices first tenet...."above all else do no harm".

Pardon Me as I collect the soap box and leave the floor open to A/anothers voice.

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 11:43:33 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I am curious if you have gone through a nasty divorce wherein either the financial or child support issues had to be resolved in a trial? If so, might you please describe your experience? If possible, please describe the role of the lawyers and the playout of the legal proceeding. What did you think swayed the court one way or the other about disputed areas such as child suppport, rehabilitative alimony, permanant alimony, and size / distribution of spousal monetary awards.

I am a lawyer, and I have not taken any domestic cases ---- but I may soon take one destined for trial where one spouse is being deceitful about his/her income, finances, and role in the family. So, although I may not be able to prove how much money the person has hidden away, I might be able to prove that in general, he/she is not particularly "honest" & "trustworthy" --- the goal being to get a higher than normal monetary award for the more honest spouse in the divorce.



Heh. Nasty divorce. I went through one where My wife tried to take Me for everything I owned. She tried taking the kids, My possessions, leaving Me with all the debt, etc.

She had a wicked, mean lawyer. Their whole case was built around what kind of an abusive jerk I was (of which I would say maybe 20% of it was actually true). She had run off to another city, hiding out with the children and had removed them from all their special services that they needed. She wanted to take the house and most everything in it from Me and leave Me with all the family debt. As you may or may not be aware, if you want half the marital assets you must also assume half the marital debts. She was not willing to do this, so I kept the house and everything in it.

The Judges do not buy this "My husband was an asshole" crap. I am warning you of that right now. They will want to know if he was such a terrible prick why you were with him for so long to begin with. Do not even play that angle. Take the high road. That is the one biggest piece of advice I can give you.

My ex was a useless bitch, but never once did I bring that up in trial. I made the stupid decision to marry her and have kids with her, I had to eat it. Simple as that. I had a fantastic lawyer, and he sidestepped all their bitter accusations and focused on the one main issue.. The kids. Here is My second biggest piece of advice I can give to you and heed it carefully please. The Judge does NOT care that you think your husband is a jerk and your kids are best with you. The Judge does NOT care that you think the husband is going to waste all his money on beer. The Judge cares what is in the best interest of the kids Period. You have to prove, 50%+1, that it is in the children's best interest to be living with you.

I have fought cases like this for other people as well, and it is always the same thing. You get back out of the relationship what you put into it. Further, you get half of what you accumulated together, both asset and debt, and the kids will spend the majority of their time with the parent that can provide best for them. In My case, it was a man. In other cases I have seen it is the woman. It does not matter today. It is who can provide best for them, and it does NOT matter if one of them is a stay at home parent or not. Look at services the children need. This is where the Judge looks. I promise you the Judge does not want to turn either parent away from the kids, so quite often it is 50:50 or weekends to the father. My case was rare. I got her down to one weekend a month..... But there is very good reason why I say that it is not wise to screw with My head. Heh.

Anyways, if you have more questions I will answer them if I can. Canadian Law may be a little different in some aspects, but the fundamentals will remain the same.

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(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 1:39:56 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

And candystripper - are you really willing to risk your license to provide legal advice and direction to someone you met on an internet BDSM board? What are you thinking?!?!?

krys


No, i am unwilling to risk my license, so i don't smoke pot, etc. Whatever i may do regarding this case will be handled professionally.

candystripper

(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 1:51:43 PM   
Misstoyou


Posts: 1149
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

My advice - stay out of the case. Family law is complicated. You can really screw up someone's life by not knowing what the hell you are doing. Let me put it in perspective.

"Im a doctor. I haven't actually performed surgery yet, but I am going to perform a heart transplant. Can anyone on this BDSM board provide me with advice?"



Very very true. Family law is as technical an area of law as any other. As a former domestic relations attorney, I can't tell you the number of times I went up against attorneys who took a divorce case to "help out" someone, even though they would never take a different type of case outside of their area of expertise. It didn't help their client.

_____________________________

~ Miss Marie

a.k.a. "mean Lady"


(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 5:45:59 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		hi MisstoYou; what the hell? is the bar full of kinksters? LOL.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 3/4/2006 5:46:41 PM >

(in reply to Misstoyou)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/4/2006 7:27:10 PM   
Misstoyou


Posts: 1149
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Hi candystripper,

Gawd only knows. lol But I've evolved! I teach now.

_____________________________

~ Miss Marie

a.k.a. "mean Lady"


(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/5/2006 8:47:28 AM   
krys


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The thing about divorce law as a field, is that the law itself is much less important than the facts, the situation, and the personalities involved.

In sum, domestic law is an area light on law, and heavy on facts and personalities.



These two statements make me feel very, very sorry, for your future client. You have no idea how very wrong you are.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/5/2006 10:38:42 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		When my former Master and I parted way... it was not a nice seperation. He moved everything lock stock and barrel from the house. Leaving not only myself, but our kids sleeping, eating and sitting on the floors. Needless to say... I was bitter. Did I take this bitterness to the court room? No, i did not.

He never asked for.. nor now has asked for.. visits. He just simply wants full custody. first go around in court in 96. The judge ordered him to pay $710 a month child support for two kids. CA laws here now we're talking, based on his income. I started laughing.. told the judge to stop puffing on that pipe in chambers. For $719 a month, he might as well have kids. It's Child support... he's suppose to help support.. not support totaly. Judge asked me wht I thought was fare at this time.. I had it lowered and we agreed on $465 a month. (Hell I knew I was moving back East and could live with that, plus paychecks)

Now in May of 2003, CA redid the child support... and upped it to $600 a months... kids were of course older and needed more. Now mind you.. CA did this.. not me.

Just as early as Feb 28th of 2006.. CA again stepped in.. re did the child support and he now pays $50 a month for both our teenage kids! Subject to be reviewed again in July.

Now I asked ................................. Should I be pist off??????????????????????


In 9 and 1/2 years... this man has seen his kids 2 times... as far as spendng summers with him. He's done drive bys (Being a cross country trucker) a few times over the years. (once or twice a year for 24-48 hours) His last eye site of his kids was July 26th of 2002. His last phone call was in 2004. He doesn't send birthday or Christmas gifts... (I never let them forget him on days like this, though my patients are running thin)

I even offered him if he spend 1 week of his 3 weeks a year vacation with his kids. I would give him back 1 full months Child Support ($600).... his comment was... I do not live in NC.. I will not take anytime off in NC.. and as long as they stay in NC.. they're not my responsibility...

Again I ask........ should I be pist off??????????????

Right now my kids have no respect for what I refer to is th sperm donor (never in their presence though) I refuse to allow any bashing of him in front of them. But it gets harder to teach them to show their father respect.. when he clearly has none for them.

So now we're back in court... back in battle.. of custody and child support. For over 9 years, I have had to listen to my kids crying... because their father bad mouths me when he does talk to them... makes promises of visits that never arrive.... etc... he sits in CA and insist they come there... even though he knows they don't want to be there. He's a cross country trucker.. he's home 2-3 days ever 6-8 weeks. Yes he's remarried... his wife had a nervous break down last June.. (jumped outta 18 wheeler as it was going 65mph down highway)

But yet i'm not suppose to be worried about them moving out there with them???????

So cloud... hope some of this will help you of yet anothers long drug out battles dealing with ex's.. divorce.. child support... etc.... Now I've stated in a few other post.. that when Master and I split.. it was due to fact that he wished to live a vanilla life again. And that started the problems with us. He did and still tries to use my lifestyle against me in court over custody. So far, it's backfired. But it's been taken under consideration by a Judge or two and I've been lashed out by Judges, Lawyers, Child Protection workers... etc.. (Hense having to hide my true self so often)

Oh one thing I forgot to mention... we were never married... according to most state laws (not all).. because we was never married.. neither of us had custody of kids at all in the begining. even though I gave birth, they were not mine right away. I only had custodial gaurdianship because they lived in my home. So NC gave me full custody of kids in court battle in 2002. This is a bi-state situation. Child support is court orfered in CA.. but custody is NC.. because they live here with me. He can't do custody from CA.

So another battle of the sexes so to speak... good luck to you.. because in the end.. no one really wins.. specially when there's children involved.

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/5/2006 11:22:05 AM   
Lurking


Posts: 5
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline 		No justice for men in divorce proceedings.

Think a spouse is hiding "his/her" income, finances, and role in the family?
lol lol lol.
You represent the wife.

lol.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/5/2006 11:36:47 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurking

No justice for men in divorce proceedings.

Think a spouse is hiding "his/her" income, finances, and role in the family?
lol lol lol.
You represent the wife.

lol.


Sure there is. Do not let anyone tell you any different. I am living, talking, walking proof of it.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Lurking)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/5/2006 12:00:27 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Now there's a bolt of common sense. Cloudboy, does your client know that you're asking for advice on a BDSM message board? I'm kind of stunned that a lawyer would discuss an ongoing case like this with STRANGERS--even if he doesn't mention any names.

quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

My advice - stay out of the case. Family law is complicated. You can really screw up someone's life by not knowing what the hell you are doing. Let me put it in perspective.

"Im a doctor. I haven't actually performed surgery yet, but I am going to perform a heart transplant. Can anyone on this BDSM board provide me with advice?"

And candystripper - are you really willing to risk your license to provide legal advice and direction to someone you met on an internet BDSM board? What are you thinking?!?!?


(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/5/2006 12:17:16 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurking

No justice for men in divorce proceedings.

Think a spouse is hiding "his/her" income, finances, and role in the family?
lol lol lol.
You represent the wife.

lol.


Sure there is. Do not let anyone tell you any different. I am living, talking, walking proof of it.



Perhaps in Pennsylvania things are different. I will tell you that there far more horror stories than there are genuinely equitable solutions. The tendency of the court is to give everything regarding the children to the mother. When I was stripped of my parental rights, I had done nothing to deserve that. I was not in a position to take custody of my kids either. While I differed to my ex on the physical custody, there were no grounds for me to have nothing to say about my children's health care, schooling, religion. At the time my oldest was in counseling and the psychologist said there should be a unified parental front and that we had to work together to help the kids. Well, the court placed us on uneven ground even though the court knew what the psychologist had said. How is this right and fair?

I would say that your situation was the exception rather than the rule. More often than not the man gets shafted. Maybe in Canada it is different... I hope that it is.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Nasty Divorce -- Your Experience - 3/5/2006 2:50:59 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		deleted.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 3/5/2006 3:00:44 PM >

(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 40
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