RE: Feminism

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ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism (10/15/2009 5:39:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer OK. Point of info: At what age do kids become cheerleaders in the US/Canada? Are we talking high school, or earlier? Junior high school. Typically a girl joins her first pep squad and starts wearing the super short skirts and showing people her panties on the playing field and at school assemblies when she's 12 or 13 at the latest. Perverse and hyper-sexual as it is, cheerleading is an athletic pursuit and the majority of athletes begin training and playing very young in this country. Most girls who become cheerleaders will have a background of ahtleticism even younger, with slightly more innocent activities like dance and gymnastics. In short--I don't consider this issue to be about adult women and their choices only. Cheerleaders ARE children to start with, and they remain underage for the majority of the time they will spend as cheerleaders, if you consider 18 a valid cut-off point for adult responsibility--I know that some people do not consider even people 18 or older to be "adults" around here, so I'm not going to get into that argument again. It's a whole separate discussion to talk about the messages about sexuality and human worth that are being sent to all women by an institution like cheerleading and the dynamic you see between men and women on the playing field. I am not the sort of person who bashes male dominance and female submission in the private lives of consenting adults (or female-female adult D/S either, for that matter). But as a feminist I do object to a national passtime that basically instutionalizes female inferiority and sexist exploitation in such a very crude and obvious way. Especially when people refuse to "see what they're seeing" effectively, and actually think about what this spectacle says about them and their society.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Feminism (10/15/2009 5:41:44 PM)
Aren't they starting cheerleading around fifth grade or so nowadays? That creepyyoung age where they go into gymnastics and figure skating...

ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism (10/15/2009 5:45:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Aren't they starting cheerleading around fifth grade or so nowadays? That creepyyoung age where they go into gymnastics and figure skating... nods Yep. "Creepy young" is a great description for the age at which some parents begin teaching their daughters to be objects. "Baby Beauty Pageants" for tiny little girls are very popular in the States, especially in the South. I accidentally stumbled into a local community center once while they were running one of these things. It made me physically ill to see a child that small wearing the frozen "happy eyes" and stiff smile of a stripper on stage.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Feminism (10/15/2009 5:54:38 PM)
Oh there is that "toddlers and tiaras" show on one of the discovery channels! The trailer literally nauseated me.

LaTigresse -> RE: Feminism (10/16/2009 6:30:11 AM)
LadyHib, I cannot even stand watching that add. It disgusts me so much.

Andalusite -> RE: Feminism (10/16/2009 8:42:30 AM)
Actually, the "Mini" level of cheerleading competitions (no sports teams to root for) are 4-8 years old! The costumes can be just appalling! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2a_p2vwzOI I went to cheerleading practice when I was 7, along with a couple of other little girls, as "junior cheerleaders." We wore our normal PE clothes (sweats and t-shirts), waved around miniature pom-pom streamers, learned the cheers, and did some stretching and stuff, but nothing like that! I compete in a form of gymnastics, and we have kids as young as 2 and adults in their 50's both come to the classes, and sometimes compete at the most basic level. The outfits are much more appropriate, though, and I don't feel it encourages a "sex object" frame of mind.

Lucienne -> RE: Feminism (10/16/2009 8:43:04 AM)
quote: Eagle quote: ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy Is it ever really possible to ask specific questions and get answers to those specific questions? {Admits not reading through to end of thread before posting} Yes. It is possible. But in my experience, it involves issuing subpoenas and hiring a court reporter. And it feels great!

PeonForHer -> RE: Feminism (10/16/2009 10:02:35 AM)
It's not even the sexism of cheerleading that bothers me, at root, so much as the superficially wholesome, exuberant, star-spangled, white-toothed, sweet-smilingness of it all. For me, cheerleading is somewhat redolent of the Nazi view of women, the "give them tits and bums and keep them happy" type of fascism of Berlusconi's present-day Italy . . . the general, blasting, brass-band-and-saluting, happy-clappyness under which extremely nasty things are going on . . . OK, OK, I'm not going to argue that cheerleaders are all proto-fascists - but the couple of ex-cheeries I've met in the past have given me the shudders all the same. They were joyfully, therefore unnervingly, right wing. People who think that they're 'unhampered' by ideology are invariably stuffed full of it. They have brains like empty buckets into which goosesteppers are only too glad to pour their liquid horseshit. Right, my rant over. And admittedly I have feck all experience of the culture of it. No doubt I'm jaded by secondhand portrayals of it in the UK media.

DemonKia -> RE: Feminism (10/16/2009 10:45:08 AM)
Now, tell us how you really feel, Peon .. . . .. lol

PeonForHer -> RE: Feminism (10/16/2009 11:09:41 AM)
No. As a Brit I'm much too reserved and, frankly, it was rather rude of you to ask, Kia. [;)]

AcademyForSlaves -> RE: Feminism (10/16/2009 8:36:19 PM)
Feminism is about no one, male or female, telling a woman what she should be like, what she should do, say, wear, do for work, etc. Allow every woman the right to do what she wants with her own life. I've read some really great articles on feminism on GoddessClub.com Hope this helps.

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (10/17/2009 12:23:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama super short skirts and showing people her panties Those aren't panties. They're dance pants. And the skirt isn't a functional skirt, it's a bit of decoration over the dance pants. Having the dance pants short like that allows for maximum rotation of the hip socket. Like it or not, it's a functional design. quote: Perverse and hyper-sexual as it is That depends on the routine. The hypersexual ones show a lack of talent, IMO. The talented cheer squads focus on gymnastic moves and dance. quote: cheerleading is an athletic pursuit and the majority of athletes begin training and playing very young in this country. Most girls who become cheerleaders will have a background of ahtleticism even younger, with slightly more innocent activities like dance and gymnastics. Let's not forget they do it because they find it fun. It seems people who base their opinions on ideology have trouble seeing things as 'fun' and 'not fun' - they're either 'feminist' or 'not feminist.' quote: In short--I don't consider this issue to be about adult women and their choices only. Cheerleaders ARE children to start with, and they remain underage for the majority of the time they will spend as cheerleaders, if you consider 18 a valid cut-off point for adult responsibility--I know that some people do not consider even people 18 or older to be "adults" around here, so I'm not going to get into that argument again. If this were your argument (that parents shouldn't be given the responsibility to make choices for their children) then I'm guessing nobody under 18 should be able to engage in any sport whatsoever seeing as how they run the risk of broken bones, paralysis or even death. quote: It's a whole separate discussion to talk about the messages about sexuality and human worth that are being sent to all women by an institution like cheerleading and the dynamic you see between men and women on the playing field. I'd say it's more of a message about what type of body is better suited to what type of athletic pursuit. Women, on average, are worse at sports than men are. Olympic world records show that pretty clearly. quote: I am not the sort of person who bashes male dominance and female submission in the private lives of consenting adults (or female-female adult D/S either, for that matter). I have no problem with people being feminists in the privacy of their own home either. It's when they have to go and do it in public that it gets on my nerves. quote: But as a feminist I do object to a national passtime that basically instutionalizes female inferiority and sexist exploitation in such a very crude and obvious way. 1. How does cheerleading institutionalize female inferiority? Are we talking a general, across the board inferiority? Or are we talking inferiority in football and basketball? If it's the latter, well, women are inferior to men in basketball and football ability. Women have less height for basketball and less speed and shoulder width for football. 2. You've got every right to object to it, and to refuse to watch it. But don't expect everyone to have the same feminist values that you do. quote: Especially when people refuse to "see what they're seeing" effectively, and actually think about what this spectacle says about them and their society. I think that what it says is that our society isn't terribly interested in embodying feminist ideology. That extreme feminists (those who want to change social interaction rather than just law) are in the minority and most people aren't too keen on making that feminist social interaction a reality. Now here's the part where you say the majority is wrong and that women who are happy and fulfilled leading unfeminist or even antifeminist lives are somehow self loathing for not giving up their happiness to follow the political paradigm you believe in.

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (10/17/2009 12:25:57 AM)
quote: OK, OK, I'm not going to argue that cheerleaders are all proto-fascists - but the couple of ex-cheeries I've met in the past have given me the shudders all the same. They were joyfully, therefore unnervingly, right wing. Does that mean that people who are happy and proud to be left wing/liberal are unnerving, and proto-communofascists?

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (10/17/2009 12:32:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama Show me a squad of hot heterosexual men wearing nothing but their tighty-whities or some similarly crotch- and ass-hugging ensemble and cheering for all-female sports which actually produce significant scholarships at the collegiate level and significant incomes and endorsement contracts at the professional level. Then I will be impressed. Until then? Sexist bullshit. http://www.themat.com/ http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/ http://www.wwe.com/ Maybe you find tighty-whiteys sexy, but most women find the UFC style shirtless thing a lot more appealing. Women watch cheerleading for the gymnastic/dance moves. Men watch cheerleading for the hot girls in short skirts. Men watch UFC for the fighting/martial arts moves. Women watch UFC for the hot guys with no shirts. They're different sports, but it's the same concept. It doesn't have to be identical for it to be fairly equal.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism (10/17/2009 12:43:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I think that what it says is that our society isn't terribly interested in embodying feminist ideology. I think what it says is that our society has a long way to go before it reaches any kind of full equality. But given that women can now vote, are permitted to own property, run businesses and hold down full-time jobs, have birth control pills and legal abortions available, and can show their PANTIES (whatever pretentious name you want to give their crotch sheathe means sweet feckall to me) in public without being gang-raped without legal consequence by casual passers-by? I'd say my side is winning and is going to continue winning, little girl. But please feel free to keep sucking down the ideology of universal female slavery for yourself and passing it on as a gift to your children. I'll pass on my own legacy, and when it comes time to survive and thrive, we'll let Evolution be the judge.

Elisabella -> RE: Feminism (10/17/2009 1:01:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama I think what it says is that our society has a long way to go before it reaches any kind of full equality. But given that women can now vote, are permitted to own property, run businesses and hold down full-time jobs, have birth control pills and legal abortions available, and can show their PANTIES (whatever pretentious name you want to give their crotch sheathe means sweet feckall to me) in public without being gang-raped without legal consequence by casual passers-by? I'd say my side is winning and is going to continue winning, little girl. The fact that a self-proclaimed feminist uses 'little girl' as a quasi insult, the fact that women are getting abortions because babies are 'inconvenient,' the fact that nearly 40% of babies born in the US are born out of wedlock, the fact that children are being raised with a key around their neck and a television as a nanny so their mommies can find 'satisfaction' in coming home stressed out from their career, the fact that half of marriages end in divorce and being a divorced mother is a virtual guarantee of never rising more than a rung or two over poverty level, the fact that the economic shift of women entering the workforce en masse has lead to a single-income household being a near impossibility, the fact that for all of the feminist advancements made, the percentage of women who identify as happy has dropped significantly since the 50's...and so many other things...show that if your side wins, humanity loses. quote: But please feel free to keep sucking down the ideology of universal female slavery for yourself and passing it on as a gift to your children. I'll pass on my own legacy, and when it comes time to survive and thrive, we'll let Evolution be the judge. Deal. It's already obvious what effects universal wage slavery and lack of clear social roles has had on the world. So much of what you're complaining about (women acting like trashy objectified whores in public) didn't exist in the pre-feminist western world. It reminds me of someone banging their head against the wall repeatedly, then blaming someone else for their headache.

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism (10/17/2009 1:09:50 AM)
Looks like you struck a nerve, Elisabella. Nice job.

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism (10/17/2009 1:12:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella The fact that a self-proclaimed feminist uses 'little girl' as a quasi insult, the fact that women are getting abortions because babies are 'inconvenient,' the fact that nearly 40% of babies born in the US are born out of wedlock, the fact that children are being raised with a key around their neck and a television as a nanny so their mommies can find 'satisfaction' in coming home stressed out from their career, the fact that half of marriages end in divorce and being a divorced mother is a virtual guarantee of never rising more than a rung or two over poverty level, the fact that the economic shift of women entering the workforce en masse has lead to a single-income household being a near impossibility, the fact that for all of the feminist advancements made, the percentage of women who identify as happy has dropped significantly since the 50's...and so many other things...show that if your side wins, humanity loses. Well said. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]

Arrogance -> RE: Feminism (10/17/2009 1:30:15 AM)
Yeah... fuck women! Dey took are jobs~!

Loki45 -> RE: Feminism (10/17/2009 1:32:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arrogance Yeah... fuck women! Dey took are jobs~! Naah, but they did bitch until they made up 49% of the work force only to turn around and bitch because they were becoming the primary breadwinners in the home because the men were being laid off moreso than the women. (Apparently they aren't happy no matter what happens.....oh wait, there was even a study that says that too.) Then of course there's the story on CNN about how "hard" it is in combat zones for women. They whine and whine until they can fill most of the jobs in the military....and then a combat zone is "hard." Well no shit darlin'. That's why women are exempt from the draft. They want equality only when it suits them.

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