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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:57:43 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Rule:
The gene pool got along without you before it met you and it will get along without you after you are gone. Do not fret. Furthermore, if you are a scientist as you claim and I do not doubt you should understand the failures within the gene pool are an important aspect of the directions of evolutionary algorithms. Many, many natural abortions (miscarriages) take place because of ordinary or mutational malfunction of genes. Looking at it from the pov of the BioMass and not the individual we are only gene carriers. It is the survival of the genes that count in the long run, not the individual. However, humane your concern may be you should not wave the flag of Natural Selection at the head of your parade. In other words, evolutionarily speaking, shit happens, people die in utero.

Ah, now we are getting somewhere. You are not quite on target, though. You have heard the bell ringing, but you do not yet know where the hammer hangs, as we say in The Netherlands.

The gene pool problem is this: in each generation many more deleterious mutations will be added to the gene pool than advantageous mutations. These deleterious mutations will increase in frequency in the gene pool if the individuals of such a population reproduce indiscriminately and if there is no or little natural selection possible to remove them from the gene pool. The result is that each succeeding generation will suffer from more congenital diseases and will be more ugly than the previous generations. As it happens, humans are fairly impervious to natural selection. People with congenital diseases will reproduce, perpetuating their deleterious alleles.
So why is it that European Christians who are not circumcised have an incidence of congenital diseases six times lower than circumcised populations such as Jews and Muslims?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Rule:
What do you make of the medical belief that uncircumcised males carry and transmit the papilloma virus for cervical cancer?

That is great! That is precisely what they ought to do if they have been stupid enough to contract it.

It is precisely because of amorously / sexually transmitted diseases that Christian populations have an incidence of congenital diseases that is six times lower than among Jews and Muslims.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:59:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
They were performed by Christian churches.

So? It does not make them Christian acts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Or how about doing what Jesus prescribed: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters and even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple." (Luke 14:26; Matt 10:37) (Gospel of Thomas #55.) Would that be something to do to change your life at a profound level? Sounds rather cultish to me.

Quote Rule: I have not studied this. It seems to be about change, though. It seems to be about dedication: dedication to the new things that he taught, to a life as a priest. To work for the salvation of all humanity instead of only being dedicated to family. It is about self-sacrifice for the greater good of all.

I believe you are quite wrong on this, Rule. Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher to the Jews. He preached the end of the wicked history of his time and was instructing his disciples how to prepare for the new Kingdom the Son of Man was to bring to earth before the end of their days....imminently, if not sooner. No wiggle room here. You are a scientist. Research it. I have given you citations. Jesus told his followers to abandon everything in preparation for the New Kingdom.

quote:

Perhaps you are right. I have read the Bible only once, 22 years ago.

However, I do not recall Jesus saying at any time that all humans would be annihilated. If he did any of those things that you say he did (what verses and books, please?), then I suggest that your interpretation is at fault.

I can supply other interpretations. (I do not know if they are correct, for I do not know what you cited exactly.)

He preached the end of the wicked history of his time = He preached the fullfillment of the Law, and thereby the end of it.

was instructing his disciples how to prepare for the new Kingdom the Son of Man was to bring to earth before the end of their days....imminently, if not sooner. = He was introducing a new religious paradigm, in truth a new reign, a new Kingdom

Jesus told his followers to abandon everything in preparation for the New Kingdom. = He was preaching to poor people, telling them that there is no sin (or something like that). He wanted apostles, priests to spread his good news. Of course such people would have to dedicate themselves to that purpose, to establishing themselves the New Kingdom. And they did.

I gave you the citations clearly, Rule. Are you too damn lazy to look them up? And you pose as a scholar? Just google them.

He was preaching to poor people? Did he not say it was more difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle? And did he not say this to a rich man? Yes he did, Rule. Check it out. Research.

If you admit you do not know whereof you speak perhaps the best strategy is not to say so much because sooner or later you start braying like an ass.

Vincent

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 5:59:57 PM

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The American culture practices and encourages circumcision and I don't know many people here who marry within their families. I also don't believe we have a higher incidence of congenital disease than other nations. Correct me if I am wrong.

< Message edited by Hierodule -- 12/2/2009 6:00:26 PM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:02:32 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I gave you the citations clearly, Rule. Are you too damn lazy to look them up? And you pose as a scholar? Just google them.

You supply the citations and next you expect me to do your work?

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:03:58 PM

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Please re-read the post - it was about isolated populations that practice circumcision or dont having higher incidences of genetic conditions due to inbreeding within a comparatively small gene pool. Clearly, this does not indicate and nor could it be taken to indicate, the US, except perhaps in relation to Amish and like communities who as I believe, tend not to marry out or in.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:05:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I gave you the citations clearly, Rule. Are you too damn lazy to look them up? And you pose as a scholar? Just google them.

You supply the citations and next you expect me to do your work?

That's what scholars do. Oh, you do disappoint me, Rule. I had greater expectations. I gave you the quotes and the citations. Have you forgotten the pleasure of scholarly pursuit?

I will return later and see if you have made any progress on your assignment.... lmao!!!

Vincent

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/2/2009 6:08:30 PM >

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:07:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

The American culture practices and encourages circumcision and I don't know many people here who marry within their families. I also don't believe we have a higher incidence of congenital disease than other nations. Correct me if I am wrong.

I suspect you are probably right, especially since our families have tended to be smaller in these later generations.

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Hierodule)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:15:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The gene pool problem is this: in each generation many more deleterious mutations will be added to the gene pool than advantageous mutations. These deleterious mutations will increase in frequency in the gene pool if the individuals of such a population reproduce indiscriminately and if there is no or little natural selection possible to remove them from the gene pool. The result is that each succeeding generation will suffer from more congenital diseases and will be more ugly than the previous generations. As it happens, humans are fairly impervious to natural selection. People with congenital diseases will reproduce, perpetuating their deleterious alleles.
So why is it that European Christians who are not circumcised have an incidence of congenital diseases six times lower than circumcised populations such as Jews and Muslims?

A mutation is only deleterious with respect to changes in the environment. If the mutation is so disadvantaged in the current environment the offsping will not survive to sexual maturation to pass the "bad" gene along to the next generation.

It is quite possible what is a poor adaptation in the present environment may survive, be passed along, and have an advantage in a changing environment.

Hasn't word of Darwin reached the Netherlands?

Vincent

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:17:51 PM

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Except the Amish don't practice circumcision .... and yet still inter-marry so that almost nullifies your point that circumcision cultures encourage inter-marriage. Unless I totally misunderstood you. Sorry I'm still a little miffed that my grand mother was insulted by a man that never met her.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Please re-read the post - it was about isolated populations that practice circumcision or dont having higher incidences of genetic conditions due to inbreeding within a comparatively small gene pool. Clearly, this does not indicate and nor could it be taken to indicate, the US, except perhaps in relation to Amish and like communities who as I believe, tend not to marry out or in.

E

< Message edited by Hierodule -- 12/2/2009 6:18:43 PM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:20:07 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Just to interject - that populations that practice circumcision often experience higher than average levels of congenital birth defects and genetically inherited vulnerabilities to certain medical conditions is established.

However, this is not due to some "curse", "judgment" or other supernatural cause, at least as far as we may be assured by genetic science. It is rather than such populations tend to limit marriage of their members outside the population, preferring instead to marry sons and daughters within the population.

This leads to an exacerbation in terms of frequency in naturally occurring faulty genes in the offspring, leading to not only higher incidence of inherited defects but also vulnerability to certain medical conditions. The same situation occurs in any population which, for reasons of religion, culture, geographical isolation or otherwise is obliged to practice what is inbreeding, albeit within a larger group than we might normally ascribe to that word, regardless of whether circumcision is practiced or not.

Of course the cause of congenital diseases is not a curse or a judgement or a supernatural cause (though it may have been). Being blessed or cursed is still common usage in our languages, though, without their supernatural implications; it is simply a form of speach denoting good fortune or bad fortune - though they may have spiritual meaning to religious people.

Congenital diseases are in the scientific paradigm precisely the consequence of what I asserted in a previous post: the accumulation of deleterious mutations in the gene pool. The problem is how to remove these deleterious mutations from the gene pool. Since European Christians have a six times lower incidence of (lethal) congenital diseases than circumcised populations such as Jews and Muslims (and various other non-circumcised populations such as islanders), the European Christians must have an evolutionary algorithm that is six times more effective than that of the Jews and Muslims.

Since Jews and Muslims lack this evolutionary algorithm, they have only one way to remove these deleterious mutations from the gene pool: by blood marriages. These deleterious alleles are often recessive and thus can spread through a population surreptitiously. But when blood marries blood, there is an increased chance that the offspring will be homozygotic for the deleterious allele, in which case it presents and can be recognized and hopefully causes the foetus to be still-born or to die relatively soon after birth. This advantage of marrying blood therefore does is evolutionary imperative; and conceivably mutations and cultural practices that stimulate such marriages will be selected for by natural selection. This is the reason that such populations are inbred to such a degree that all individuals in a particular village have identical genomes. They are forced to intermarry blood out of desperation, in an attempt to limit the spread of the deleterious alleles throughout the entire population. It is because they lack the evolutionary algorithm that causes deleterious alleles to be removed from the gene pool of European Christians.

< Message edited by Rule -- 12/2/2009 7:00:05 PM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:32:11 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
The American culture practices and encourages circumcision and I don't know many people here who marry within their families. I also don't believe we have a higher incidence of congenital disease than other nations. Correct me if I am wrong.

Accumulating congenital diseases and being forced by necessity and out of desperation to marry within families does not happen overnight, you ought to know. It gets worse in each succeeding generation. You in the States have been abusing circumcision for about one century now. Muslims have done so for more than a thousand years. Jews have done so for thousands of years. Just wait a couple of more generations and you will see that what I predict - from simple evolutionary principles - comes true.

(in reply to Hierodule)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:36:15 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I will return later and see if you have made any progress on your assignment.... lmao!!!

There are five or six Bibles fifty centimeters beyond the reach of my arm. I will not get up to get one of them unless you supply chapter and verse.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:40:19 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I suspect you are probably right, especially since our families have tended to be smaller in these later generations.

Pff. Congenital disease frequencies do not have anything to do with number of individuals. It is a FREQUENCY - but I guess some people do not know what that is.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:45:29 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
A mutation is only deleterious with respect to changes in the environment. If the mutation is so disadvantaged in the current environment the offsping will not survive to sexual maturation to pass the "bad" gene along to the next generation.

It is quite possible what is a poor adaptation in the present environment may survive, be passed along, and have an advantage in a changing environment.

Hasn't word of Darwin reached the Netherlands?

(Yes, I will write about your post quoted above in that other thread.)

It is a good thing that I have never had the habit of pulling the hairs out of my head. I will not take it up now.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:49:40 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

Except the Amish don't practice circumcision .... and yet still inter-marry so that almost nullifies your point that circumcision cultures encourage inter-marriage. Unless I totally misunderstood you. Sorry I'm still a little miffed that my grand mother was insulted by a man that never met her.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Please re-read the post - it was about isolated populations that practice circumcision or dont having higher incidences of genetic conditions due to inbreeding within a comparatively small gene pool. Clearly, this does not indicate and nor could it be taken to indicate, the US, except perhaps in relation to Amish and like communities who as I believe, tend not to marry out or in.

E

Yes, you misread LadyEllen.

In fact the Amish and related groups also lack the Christian evolutionary algorithm. They appear to be afflicted very much by congenital diseases. I have tried to get at the bottom of this, but even the institute that has been established to address their congenital diseases does not have an e-mail address. (They have a phone number and a post address, but that is too much of a bother for me.)

Edited to add: Pray tell, how did I insult your grandmother?

< Message edited by Rule -- 12/2/2009 6:52:18 PM >

(in reply to Hierodule)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:52:12 PM

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Yes indeed. And even useless mutations have flourished based on reproductive preference. Blond hair was originally a mutation. It survived ,despite being a recessive trait, because it's uniquness was considered sexually attractive. Eventually it became common place in entire populations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

A mutation is only deleterious with respect to changes in the environment. If the mutation is so disadvantaged in the current environment the offsping will not survive to sexual maturation to pass the "bad" gene along to the next generation.

It is quite possible what is a poor adaptation in the present environment may survive, be passed along, and have an advantage in a changing environment.

Hasn't word of Darwin reached the Netherlands?

Vincent

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:54:45 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
Yes indeed. And even useless mutations have flourished based on reproductive preference. Blond hair was originally a mutation. It survived, despite being a recessive trait, because it's uniquness was considered sexually attractive. Eventually it became common place in entire populations.

Umm, wrong. I ain't going to explain that.

(in reply to Hierodule)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:57:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Perhaps you are right. I have read the Bible only once, 22 years ago.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

There are five or six Bibles fifty centimeters beyond the reach of my arm. I will not get up to get one of them unless you supply chapter and verse.

Ok I have to ask...if you haven't read the bible in 22 years, why do you still have 5 or 6 copies laying around. Don't you put stuff away?

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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 6:58:22 PM

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you are so ignorant and stuck up your own ass that no one can be right but you?

"Peter Frost has written a cool paper on the evolution of blond hair and the origin of the remarkable diversity of eye and hair color in Northern and Eastern Europeans. His paper will be published in the upcoming March edition of the journal Evolution and Human Behavior. Frost is spot-on in nailing intense sexual selection as the primary reason for the high prevalence of blondness, which is of recent origin (less than 20,000 years old), and the unusual diversity of hair and eye color among Northern and Eastern Europeans. Whereas Frost’s proposed reason for the intense sexual selection is open to debate, the conclusion that intense sexual selection is implicated is almost certain."

(in reply to Hierodule)

RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 7:00:21 PM

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European hair and eye color: A case of frequency-dependent sexual selection? Peter Frost Abstract Human hair and eye color is unusually diverse in northern and eastern Europe. The many alleles involved (at least seven for hair color) and their independent origin over a short span of evolutionary time indicate some kind of selection. Sexual selection is particularly indicated because it is known to favor color traits and color polymorphisms. In addition, hair and eye color is most diverse in what used to be, when first peopled by hunter-gatherers, a unique ecozone of low-latitude continental tundra. This type of environment skews the operational sex ratio (OSR) of hunter-gatherers toward a male shortage in two ways: (1) men have to hunt highly mobile and spatially concentrated herbivores over longer distances, with no alternate food sources in case of failure, the result being more deaths among young men; (2) women have fewer opportunities for food gathering and thus require more male provisioning, the result being less polygyny. These two factors combine to leave more women than men unmated at any one time. Such an OSR imbalance would have increased the pressures of sexual selection on early European women, one possible outcome being an unusual complex of color traits: hair- and eye-color diversity and, possibly, extreme skin depigmentation. Keywords: Gender roles; Monogamy; Pigmentation; Polygyny; Sexual selection; Upper Paleolithic. 1. Introduction Human hair and eye color is unusually diverse in a geographic area centered on the East Baltic and covering northern and eastern Europe (Fig. 1 and Fig. 2). Within this area, eyes are not only brown but also blue, gray, hazel, or green, while hair is not only black but also brown, flaxen, golden, or red (Beals & Hoijer, 1965, pp. 212–214). As one moves outward from this area, color diversity declines markedly with eyes becoming uniformly brown and hair uniformly black.

(in reply to Hierodule)

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