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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 7:04:04 PM   
ShadowSide


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"Plague" is a nice term. How about perpetual pestilence from its beginnings to its endings, whenever that comes?

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 7:04:21 PM   
Hierodule


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6. Discussion One might object that sexual selection could not have diversified European hair and eye color because there is no sexual dimorphism in these traits. Had women been selected for a diversity of hair and eye colors, they would now be more diverse in this respect than men are. It should be noted, however, that both hair and eye colors are, at best, weakly sex-linked; hence, selection acting on women should have affected men and women equally until sex-linked alleles had arisen through chance mutations. The original alleles (i.e., the non-sex-linked ones) could then have been selected out, but only if men were somehow disadvantaged by the novel hair and eye colors. For most animals, the disadvantage is an increased risk of predation, which will reduce highly visible colors in the sex that does not need them. For early Europeans, such a disadvantage would have been slight. Even wolves were more likely to be prey than predators (Hoffecker, 2002, pp. 180–183, 225, 241–242). This being said, some hair and eye colors seem to be sex linked. Blond hair darkens with age more slowly in women than in men (Olivier, 1960, p. 74). Furthermore, prenatal exposure to estrogen, as indicated by digit ratio, appears to be higher in individuals with blond hair or non-brown eyes (Mather et al., unpublished). If a sex difference does indeed exist in these novel hair and eye colors, it seems to be expressed only right after puberty. It was notably absent in the 18-to-38 year olds studied by Mather et al. (unpublished). Besides diversifying European hair and eye color, sexual selection may have accentuated existing sexual dimorphisms. Several studies have found wider hips, narrower waists, and thicker deposition of subcutaneous fat in women of European descent than in women of other origins (Hrdlička, 1898, Meredith & Spurgeon, 1980 and Nelson & Nelson, 1986). Even before birth, Euro-American fetuses show significantly more sexual dimorphism than do African-American fetuses (Choi & Trotter, 1970). The proximal cause may be lower androgen production than in women of sub-Saharan African descent (Falkner et al., 1999) and higher estrogen production and lower fecal excretion of estrogen than in women of north/east Asian descent (Adlercreutz et al., 1994, Coker et al., 1997, Key et al., 1990, Taioli et al., 1996 and Wang et al., 1991). Prenatal exposure to estrogen, as indicated by digit ratio, may also be higher in European women, albeit with much interpopulation variation (Manning et al., 2000; Manning, J. T. (2003). Personal communication). This variation may reflect a maternal-age effect: digit ratio is higher in Catholic countries like Poland and Spain, where mothers generally bear children in their 20s, than in Germany and Finland, where more mothers bear children in their 30s (Manning et al., 2000). Sexual selection may have also lightened European skin color. The extreme depigmentation of northern and eastern Europeans deviates markedly from the much weaker north–south gradient in skin color of other human populations (the latter gradient may reflect selection pressures to maintain a critical level of vitamin D synthesis). Yet the geographic extent of this extreme depigmentation does not coincide with a specific pattern of solar radiation: Skies are generally overcast over coastal northwestern Europe and become clearer and typically continental further east. It does coincide, however, with the area where hair and eye color has diversified (Fig. 4). Aside from red hair, the color of the hair and eyes is not genetically linked to skin color (Flanagan et al., 2000 and Sturm et al., 2001). It seems, therefore, that a common selective force has acted simultaneously on skin, hair, and eye color within this geographic area while being absent at similar latitudes in northern Asia and North America (Frost, 1994a and Manning et al., 2004). Fig. 4. Skin-color depigmentation in Eurasia approximately 500 BP (after Brace, 1973, p. 344, reprinted with permission from Wiley). If this common selective force were sexual selection, it could have lightened European skin color by acting on an existing sexual dimorphism. Men and women differ in complexion because of differing amounts of melanin and cutaneous blood flow; in short, women are fairer, men browner and ruddier (Edwards & Duntley, 1939, Frost, 1988, Frost, 2005, Hulse, 1967 and Jablonski & Chaplin, 2000). The size of this sex difference is still debated, largely because most studies are poorly controlled for age (girls lighten only after puberty and immediately before are actually darker than boys). Investigators also try to exclude tanning by measuring under the arm, where there is less subcutaneous fat and probably less dimorphism in skin color, given that the lightness of a woman's skin correlates with the thickness of her subcutaneous fat (Mazess, 1967). In any event, sexual selection may have targeted this sex difference, as suggested by a cross-cultural male preference for lighter complexioned women and, conversely, by some evidence of a female preference for darker complexioned men (Aoki, 2002, Feinman & Gill, 1978, Frost, 1988, Frost, 1994b, Frost, 2005 and Van den Berghe & Frost, 1986). Among ancestral Europeans, such selection, even if acting only on women, would have lightened the complexions of both sexes because most skin-color genes are not sex linked. Nonetheless, some of these genes are; thus, there should have been some selective pressure to make European skin color more sexually dimorphic. Yet skin color actually seems to be less sexually dimorphic in light-skinned populations (Relethford et al., 1985). The reason may be a ceiling effect. As ancestral Europeans approached the phenotypic limit of maximum skin depigmentation, further lightening would have become harder to achieve for women than for men, with the result that sexual selection, although acting primarily on women, lightened men more. In conclusion, sexual selection may have acted on all three color traits in northern and eastern Europe, with hair and eye color being diversified and skin color lightened. This hypothesis is consistent with the narrow timeframe for the evolution of these traits, their geographic distribution, and the large number of alleles involved.

(in reply to Hierodule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 7:09:37 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Ok I have to ask...if you haven't read the bible in 22 years, why do you still have 5 or 6 copies laying around.

One of my areas of expertise is world mythology. The bible is part of world mythology. They are there in case I need a reference work; these days I infrequently also may use google to research Bible texts, as I did with the unicorn subject a couple of months ago; some may recall that thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Don't you put stuff away?

Umm, no. I am apathic. There is the dust of ages here. Besides, reference works definitely will stay. I need them - even if I haven't used them in forty years. I may need one tomorrow - if I can retrieve it.

(in reply to thishereboi)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 7:21:34 PM   
Hierodule


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Oh and here is an article from the Times  UK online about Frost's study incase I haven't driven this into the ground yet:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article735078.ece

" Frost’s theory, to be published this week in Evolution and Human Behavior, the academic journal, was supported by Professor John Manning, a specialist in evolutionary psychology at the University of Central Lancashire. “Hair and eye colour tend to be uniform in many parts of the world, but in Europe there is a welter of variants,” he said. “The mate choice explanation now being put forward is, in my mind, close to being correct.” Frost’s theory is also backed up by a separate scientific analysis of north European genes carried out at three Japanese universities, which has isolated the date of the genetic mutation that resulted in blond hair to about 11,000 years ago."

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 7:22:49 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
you are so ignorant and stuck up your own ass that no one can be right but you?

"Peter Frost has written a cool paper on the evolution of blond hair and the origin of the remarkable diversity of eye and hair color in Northern and Eastern Europeans.  His paper will be published in the upcoming March edition of the journal Evolution and Human Behavior.  Frost is spot-on in nailing intense sexual selection as the primary reason for the high prevalence of blondness, which is of recent origin (less than 20,000 years old), and the unusual diversity of hair and eye color among Northern and Eastern Europeans.  Whereas Frost’s proposed reason for the intense sexual selection is open to debate, the conclusion that intense sexual selection is implicated is almost certain."

It is not that I am ignorant, but that I know far more about the subject than you do. Of course Frost is correct that the alleles for blond, straight hair spread rapidly throughout the North-European population because of sexual selection. Sexual selection is a variant of natural selection that is far superior to ordinary natural selection. It is because females make a (conscious or instinctive) choice for an advantageous trait and against disadvantageous traits, eventually mutations will be selected for that make such a choice instinctive. This is precisely what European Christian females do: whether consciously or instinctively, they remove deleterious mutations from the gene pool and select for advantageous mutations using the Christian evolutionary algorithm of sexual selection.

As for the blond hair, it was selected for because like white skin at higher latitudes and little meat in the diet, it is far more important to have the skin make vitamin D than to have costly melanine in it to protect against ultraviolet rays. The evolutionary advantage was such that females started to sexually select for lighter skin and blond hair.

< Message edited by Rule -- 12/2/2009 7:48:25 PM >

(in reply to Hierodule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 7:27:15 PM   
GotSteel


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Just to put things in perspective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Unicorns are real.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 7:29:49 PM   
Hierodule


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ummmmmm you do not see a contradiction here??? You told me I was wrong, then told me I was right once I sited sources. And used the language of the sources I sighted to agree with what you previously said was wrong!!!!???


You are the biggest fake I have ever encountered on the internet. now I am IGNORING YOU for real. I really can't run in circles like this with an obvious deceitful liar.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
Yes indeed. And even useless mutations have flourished based on reproductive preference. Blond hair was originally a mutation. It survived, despite being a recessive trait, because it's uniquness was considered sexually attractive. Eventually it became common place in entire populations.

Umm, wrong. I ain't going to explain that.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Of course Frost is correct that the alleles for blond, straight hair spread rapidly throughout the North-European population because of sexual selection. Sexual selection is a variant of natural selection that is far superior to ordinary natural selection. It is because females make a (conscious or instinctive) choice for an advantageous trait and against disadvantageous traits; eventually mutations will be selected for that make such a choice instinctive

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 7:40:53 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Just to put things in perspective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Unicorns are real.



You REALLY don't know how happy i am you did that. (just sayin)


_____________________________

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(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 7:57:36 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

Oh and here is an article from the Times  UK online about Frost's study incase I haven't driven this into the ground yet:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article735078.ece

I am sorry, but there is nothing new in it for me. I may have only learned about sexual selection after I conceived of it myself when in high school in the seventies. (I cannot be certain about that, as it was a long time ago: memories get lost.) In any case I read about it in New Scientist in relation to the tail of the peacock and the beauty of the birds of paradise in the early eighties, presumably after my courses in genetics and evolution biology in high school and at university in the seventies and early eighties discussing the same. That sexual selection had a huge role in the spread of white skin and straight blond hair and why was selfevident to me as long ago as that. If other scientists thought of it just now, they are incredibly stupid (which also has been self-evident to me for as many decades; that is why I am a supergenius.)

(in reply to Hierodule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:06:16 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
ummmmmm you do not see a contradiction here??? You told me I was wrong, then told me I was right once I sited sources. And used the language of the sources I sighted to agree with what you previously said was wrong!!!!???

You are the biggest fake I have ever encountered on the internet. now I am IGNORING YOU for real. I really can't run in circles like this with an obvious deceitful liar.

I never disputed the means by which blond hair spread throughout the population: sexual selection. I disputed the reason why it was selected for. It was not selected because it was sexually attractive, but because it conferred significant reproductive advantages to the concerned individual and his like progeny.

Saying that something was sexually selected for because it was sexually attractive is naming a consequence (sexual selection) without naming a cause (the selected for trait conferred an evolutionary advantage on offspring.) Obviously you still do not comprehend the difference.

(in reply to Hierodule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:12:52 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Just to put things in perspective.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Unicorns are real.


You REALLY don't know how happy i am you did that. (just sayin)

Likewise. Now I will cross-examine you: It is obvious that unicorns are a real concept (otherwise there would be no such word to represent the concept) - but how should this concept be interpreted? (It may be that some of you associate the concept with the familiar depiction of a horse with a horn on its head. Unless you can convincingly argue the truth of that image, I advise you to discard that romantic idiocy.)

(in reply to breatheasone)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:15:39 PM   
Hierodule


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You need to read Frost study. There is no biological advantage to light hair. It was simply a mutation that made a female stand out from the others during a time of male shortage, making her unique and desirable. The advantage of various hair and eye color was simply that it made women more attractive. There was no other boon. In fact loss of pigment in hair and skin actually led to vitamin D deficiency. Read the study.

If you are such a scholar may I ask where your work has been published?

(in reply to Hierodule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:20:30 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
6. Discussion One might object that sexual selection could not have diversified European hair and eye color because there is no sexual dimorphism in these traits. Had women been selected for a diversity of hair and eye colors, they would now be more diverse in this respect than men are.

Oh my GOD! (I don't say that often; in fact it may be the first time that I have ever said it.) What idiocy are you quoting?

Sexual selection is not about men selecting females! That would be biologically useless, even - and very much so - contraproductive.

Sexual selection is about females selecting either consciously, but most often instinctively, mates with evolutionary advantageous traits.

I won't read the balance of that quote. If it starts with such stupidity, it must have been written by an imbecile. And it once again demonstrates that you do not comprehend the first thing about evolution and all its aspects.

(in reply to Hierodule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:27:30 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
You need to read Frost study. There is no biological advantage to light hair. It was simply a mutation that made a female stand out from the others during a time of male shortage, making her unique and desirable. The advantage of various hair and eye color was simply that it made women more attractive. There was no other boon. In fact loss of pigment in hair and skin actually led to vitamin D deficiency. Read the study.
If you are such a scholar may I ask where your work has been published?

Well then I guess that neither is there a biological advantage to an ice bear having transparent hair and an elephant having a trunk. They were simply mutations that made female ice bear and female elephants stand out from the others during a time of male shortage, making them unique and desirable. The advantage of transparent ice bear hair and elephant trunks was simply that it made female ice bear and female elephants more attractive. There was no other boon.

I case you haven't gotten the gist of what I am saying here: I think that Frost is an idiot and that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

(in reply to Hierodule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:28:49 PM   
Hierodule


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That quote is from Frost's study. The one you agreed with earlier. The one supported by two other separate studies.

Blond hair appeared in Europe during a time of male shortage. You should read the study. Here is a quote from the abstract of Frost's much supported studied:

"hair and eye color is most diverse in what used to be, when first peopled by hunter-gatherers, a unique ecozone of low-latitude continental tundra. This type of environment skews the operational sex ratio (OSR) of hunter-gatherers toward a male shortage in two ways: (1) men have to hunt highly mobile and spatially concentrated herbivores over longer distances, with no alternate food sources in case of failure, the result being more deaths among young men; (2) women have fewer opportunities for food gathering and thus require more male provisioning, the result being less polygyny. These two factors combine to leave more women than men unmated at any one time. Such an OSR imbalance would have increased the pressures of sexual selection on early European women, one possible outcome being an unusual complex of color traits: hair- and eye-color diversity and, possibly, extreme skin depigmentation."

Sorry i may or may not know as much about evolution as you do. But I will trust a published work of backed up research long before i will trust an obvious internet loon like yourself

ETA they lived in a tundra not an ice flow. Blond hair made them STICK OUT from their natural environment, not blend into it.



< Message edited by Hierodule -- 12/2/2009 8:30:22 PM >

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:31:38 PM   
Hierodule


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" For most animals, the disadvantage is an increased risk of predation, which will reduce highly visible colors in the sex that does not need them. For early Europeans, such a disadvantage would have been slight. Even wolves were more likely to be prey than predators (Hoffecker, 2002, pp. 180–183, 225, 241–242)."

(in reply to Hierodule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:36:07 PM   
Hierodule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Well then I guess that neither is there a biological advantage to an ice bear having transparent hair and an elephant having a trunk.



Those traits are naturally selected, not sexually selected. You should know since you coined the term in high school (eye roll) So where was your work published again?


< Message edited by Hierodule -- 12/2/2009 8:39:18 PM >

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:48:39 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
That quote is from Frost's study. The one you agreed with earlier. The one supported by two other separate studies.

Blond hair appeared in Europe during a time of male shortage. You should read the study. Here is a quote from the abstract of Frost's much supported studied:

"hair and eye color is most diverse in what used to be, when first peopled by hunter-gatherers, a unique ecozone of low-latitude continental tundra. This type of environment skews the operational sex ratio (OSR) of hunter-gatherers toward a male shortage in two ways: (1) men have to hunt highly mobile and spatially concentrated herbivores over longer distances, with no alternate food sources in case of failure, the result being more deaths among young men; (2) women have fewer opportunities for food gathering and thus require more male provisioning, the result being less polygyny. These two factors combine to leave more women than men unmated at any one time. Such an OSR imbalance would have increased the pressures of sexual selection on early European women, one possible outcome being an unusual complex of color traits: hair- and eye-color diversity and, possibly, extreme skin depigmentation."

Sorry i may or may not know as much about evolution as you do. But I will trust a published work of backed up research long before i will trust an obvious internet loon like yourself

ETA they lived in a tundra not an ice flow. Blond hair made them STICK OUT from their natural environment, not blend into it.

I do not care how many idiots support the work of an imbecile. In every population of humans there is a paucity not of men (only one is needed for a million females to get fertilized) but of fertile females. He thinks that females cannot kill meat? Boy, he should get out of his fantasy filled dungeon and walk about in the real world.

Men have to hunt long distances? Bush men in the Kalahari may do that, but the balance of their diet is gathered by their women. So these men are hunting long distances and they are so stupid as to leave their women and children behind without defences against enemies that would kill and enslave the children and rape the women? I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT FOR ONE MOMENT. And who cares if a man dies: that is natural selection. More females for the remaining men.

Women have less opportunity for food gathering? LMAO! Females of all species have plenty opportunity to gather food in the tundra (that is the reason why they move to the tundra when spring or summer sets in: to feed and to breed) except for the human female who does not have any opportunity to gather food and who is completely dependent upon the male for her provisions.

Have you truly no idea how ridiculous these confabulations of Frost are?

This guy is a recognized scientist because he is so clever as to abbreviate "operational sex ratio" into (OSR)? I may be crazy, but I am not that easily fooled.

(in reply to Hierodule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:50:58 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
ETA they lived in a tundra not an ice flow. Blond hair made them STICK OUT from their natural environment, not blend into it.

Where did I anywhere say anything about blond hair blending in?

(in reply to Hierodule)
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RE: Believer(s) of god are plague to this world. - 12/2/2009 8:52:18 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule
" For most animals, the disadvantage is an increased risk of predation, which will reduce highly visible colors in the sex that does not need them. For early Europeans, such a disadvantage would have been slight. Even wolves were more likely to be prey than predators (Hoffecker, 2002, pp. 180–183, 225, 241–242)."

I have no idea what you are blabbering about. Are you still obsessed with blond hair not blending in?

(in reply to Hierodule)
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