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RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 3:45:37 PM

Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveyslave

Question is do any other TPE slaves sometime wish they were not slave?
Ever been sleeping on the floor and wish you could be in a nice warm bed?
Ever wish you could cum anytime you wanted?
Ever wish you could pee without permission?
and so on?

i would like to know what you miss about your life before you became a slave.

Slavery has been and will be again very fulfilling for me. The only part of it I don't like is the "being single" part. I do not like living a life that is not directed by someone else. Additionally, it narrows your field of choices considerably and when you have other narrowing factors going on (age, intelligence, and so on) it means if you are unowned you're often in for a long wait in this miserable condition. Luckily, patience and I have always got along pretty well.

Ok, another thing I don't like about it, but it goes with the territory: I don't like displeasing my partner. Not that I particularly like displeasing vanilla people either, but it's still much easier to bear due to that dynamic not being there.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to slaveyslave)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 3:49:22 PM

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Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

what young girl in her right mind would say "when i grow up i wanna be some mans slave" ?

One who was always a very independent and creative thinker and didn't let societal mores brainwash or influence what she knew was right for herself, even at a very young age?

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to osf)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 4:05:01 PM

Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: yummee

Right now, I am wishing I was not a slave. My mother has another back surgery coming up in January. ...

Low whistle. That's a tough situation, for you both. I wish you the best!

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to yummee)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 4:30:24 PM

ishyB

Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

what young girl in her right mind would say "when i grow up i wanna be some mans slave" ?

Me, me, me, me, me... *Raises hand*

When I was about 8-14 years old, I wanted to be kidnapped to the Middle-East to serve as a harem girl and belly dancer.

Either that or become a porn star....

But then again, I've always been a little weird, so the "in her right mind" part might be debatable....

< Message edited by ishyB -- 10/21/2009 4:40:09 PM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to osf)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 4:38:38 PM

ishyB

Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

All that is proven by the fact that some people who self-identify as "slaves" leave their "owners" is that at the very least some people are able to do so. However, this path of logic in NO way proves that all people who self-identify as "slaves" are able to do so.

QUESTION: Please provide a scenario where a slave is LEGALLY UNABLE to leave, should they decide they NO LONGER CONSENT to remain with their Owner. *Note: Lack of finances doesn't count, because anyone can always dash off to a half-way house, if need be.

quote:

Imprisonment (after the fact) is illegal, and not consensual... thus, not part of the power dynamic which, at its very foundation, is based on consent.

Greetings Master,

Since when did BDSM style relationships need to be legal? Last time I checked, most of what many BDSMers do is illegal. Also, the type of relationship I have been referring to do not need to be consensual. At least not at ever time during the relationship. If a person is strong enough to mentally bind another to him, go for it I'd say. Consent doesn't always seem to be needed, although it is advisable to remember that doing unconsensual things can have legal consequences.

Of course, I will readily admit that there is no legal way to enslave a person and take away their right to consent.
In fact, the type of slavery I was referring to in my examples is illegal is most countries.
It is illegal to course somebody into marrying against their will, it is illegal to indoctrinate people in sects and take away their ability to make their own choices, it is illegal to intimidate an abused partner into staying in a relationship... yet... all of these things happen on a daily basis in our culture and very often, they result in a mindset where the subject does not feel they have the ability to exercise their legal right to leave.

I think the debate on whether or not those people make a choice to actually remain in the relationships or not is a matter of semantics in which we will most likely not agree. I do feel that it is able to put a certain kind of psychological bond on a person that makes them unable to exercise their legal rights. It takes their independed will and their determination of self away.
Legally, of course, they still have the right to make that choice; mentally they are unable to do so, however.

Internal enslavement accomplishes the same thing in my opinion. It is consensual in the sense that it is entered into on the basis of a free choice, with the informed understanding that the goal of the process is to create a mental state in which the subject psychologically is no longer able to withdrawal consent.
In this sense, it is illegal slavery, because I'm pretty sure that the courts would consider it brainwashing and indoctrination to willfully put another person in a mental state where they are unable to exercise their free choice, or legal rights.

However, illegal or not, this is still precisely the sort of relationship many men an women who self-identify as a "slave" are looking for, even though not all people who self-identify as a slave are looking for this type of relationship.
The example you brought up with Master Leadership and his Carol, is a perfect example of a relationship that identifies itself as "slavery", but where the goal never was to bring Carol in a mental state where she is unable to choose to remain in the relationship or not. On the contrary, Master Leadership has always said that her consent is important to him. This is a good example of one possibility to create a good, functional, fulfilling relationship between individuals under the name "slavery".
But it is by far not the only possible way to fill in such a relationship.
Some men, unlike Master Leadership, do not place as much value on the subject's indefinite ability to give consent. They wish to take away this ability to consent, just like some self-identified "slaves" wish this ability to consent to be taken away.

I wish you well,

ishy

< Message edited by ishyB -- 10/21/2009 5:05:42 PM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 4:55:16 PM

Posts: 111
Joined: 5/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
QUESTION: Please provide a scenario where a slave is LEGALLY UNABLE to leave, should they decide they NO LONGER CONSENT to remain with their Owner. *Note: Lack of finances doesn't count, because anyone can always dash off to a half-way house, if need be.

There is no legal slave in the US. If legality is the issue in your mind, throw the term "slave" out of the window cause it doesn't exist except nonconsentually and illegally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
If they stay, then they don't REALLY want to leave. Some are fine with living an unhappy life, but that simply doesn't change the fact that they have a CHOICE to leave if they TRULY wanted to. Many vanilla couples stay together in unfulfilling relationships too... but that does NOT mean they don't have a CHOICE to part if they TRULY want to.

I have the physical ability to put one foot in front of the other. I do it all the time, every single day. That does not equate to the ability to walk out of the door of my owner's residence with the intention of never returning. That is a whole other emotional ballgame. If I choose to obey a rapist in order to preserve physical health rather than being beaten or killed, does that mean I have consented to sex with someone I have no desire to have sex with?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
If we're citing "history" then you're referring to ILLEGAL SLAVERY, which is vastly different from CONSENSUAL SLAVERY. If you're citing a scenario such as Stockholm Syndrome, then that too has its roots in ILLEGAL SLAVERY, via an ILLEGAL ABDUCTION.

All slavery in the US is illegal. There is no legal consentual slavery. It doesn't exist legally, despite what many of us live every day ... nor is illegal abduction a requirement for Stockholm Syndrome. Emotionally, mentally, something inside me screaming that my very survival depends on obeying B, prevents me from walking out of that door with the intent of never returning. Perhaps it is a form of mentall illness. I would not argue that point, because honestly, I can see and understand that judgement by others of my condition. However, it does not change the condition. I have thus far been incapable of walking out the door with the intention of never returning. This has been tested in my life over the last several years over and over again. I have not yet been able to muster the will to leave with the intention of never returning.

I will concede that it may be possible when I am with my family helping my mother recover from her surgery, outside of B's influence, to escape his hold or muster some long forgotten will within myself to remain with my mother (where I feel I should be if I had the balls to stand up to him). However, if I have that thought in my head when its time for me to board the plane, I can guarantee that I will be reduced to a puddle and be unable to put one foot in front of the other to board that plane.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
FEELING they can't leave does not negate their still having a CHOICE to leave. I can FEEL like the ruler of the world, but doesn't make it so. Whether one feels they can leave or not does not change the fact that they still have a CHOICE to stay or leave.

It's not about choice. Its about ability. I can choose to be president of the US, but that doesnt mean I have the ability to do so. My legs simply will not function well enough to walk out of the door when I am furious or feeling used or taken advantage of. It triggers this sort of survival instinct in me where I equate leaving B as suicidal. Some people cannot commit suicide. Its not a matter of *choosing* to commit suicide. Its a matter of instinct overriding choice. It is self preservation in my case. Again, I will admit to this being a warped or twisted survival instinct by most people's standards. That does not mean that by recognizing this on an intellectual level I suddenly become able on a mental or emotional level. There's something working differently in my brain than in yours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
Again... FEELING a certain way does not negate anyone's CHOICE to stay or leave. Whether one CHOOSES to exercise their CHOICE to stay or leave, does not remove the existence of that choice.

Some people do not have the mental or emotional will that others have. Consider them broken if it makes you feel better. We all have legal options we never take. We all take on some things and let other things go. Legally, we are all cut from the same cloth. My life experiences show me, however, that we are certainly not all cut from the same cloth. Legal rights are bestowed upon all sorts of people who will never have the will to excercise them. This is not about legal choices. This (for me at least) is about the abilities I possess or lack. I lack the ability to put one foot in front of the other, and out the door, if I have the thought in my head that I will not be returning. You may choose to believe or not believe as is your legal right. That makes no difference whatsover in my abilities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
I know I'm sounding like a broken record here, but again... FEELING trapped does not remove the existence of one's CHOICE to leave. Thus, what I'd stated still holds true... EVERYONE STILL HAS A CHOICE, whether they CHOOSE to exercise that choice or not.

Its more than feeling unable. Its feeling very able, and even furious or highly affronted, and then finding yourself mortified at having to crawl back because you simply cannot muster the will to permanently leave. Its having a switch in your brain snap off when you really want it to remain on. I would love to be able to choose all sorts of things for myself. My reality is, however, that those sorts of choices are simply outside my capability. For me, its not even a matter of B's excellent mastery. Sometimes I kick myself because I feel like a friggin trained monkey could master me. As a matter of course, I submit, period, end of sentence. I am compelled to do so. Its right up there with OCD. Like people who stop the car every 50 feet because they think they've hit someone or run over someone. It may not be rational, but it is very very real. Those people are mentally or emotionally unable to go more than 50 feet without stopping the car to check under it for body parts. They have an overwhelming sense of dread that something horrible just happened, no matter how many times they check and never see body parts. No matter how much they realize intellectually that the issue is in their own head and not under their car. They don't really have a choice to just keep on driving and ignore that overwheling sense of dread. The rest of the world may have that choice ... but some people simply don't.

It may be that those unable to leave suffer from some sort of mental illness. I've long given up that arguement because I can see both sides, and intellectually, I agree with what those claiming it is mental illness are saying. There is certainly something inside me that is deficient, missing or warped to the point that I have lost basic abilities that others take for granted. That does not change my world, though. Fortunately for me, I am usually quite happy and content with my situation. Mostly, I am grateful to belong to one who loves me and wants me to be happy. I've been a slave (although we didnt call it slavery at the time) to men who didn't give a shit about my well being or happiness. I'm actually quite scared at the thought that B's hold may somehow be lessened while I am away from him, because I know I would just be a slave to whoever comes along after him. That someone could very well be another man who doesn't give a damned about me, the person.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 5:01:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You can deny it all you wish.

I will... as I find your position based in fantasy, not reality.

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 5:10:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

quote:

ORIGINAL: yummee

Right now, I am wishing I was not a slave. My mother has another back surgery coming up in January. ...

Low whistle. That's a tough situation, for you both. I wish you the best!

Thank you. <3

He is still looking for something in Louisiana that would be secure enough for us to move there. We just don't have much confidence that some secure, fabulous CNC Machining job will open up near my mother. He understands how I feel, and he is pretty heartbroken over the situation as well. He adores my mother and she him. Maybe if he were just being an ass about it, it would be easier for me to handle. Then, I could blame him and be angry, which is easier emotionally for me to handle.

On a side note, if you (or anyone reading) knows of any CNC positions within 100 miles of Baton Rouge, we would love to hear about it.

(in reply to CaringandReal)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 5:26:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
Last time I checked, most of what many BDSMers do is illegal.

When did it become illegal to whack someone's ass? If things like "anal" in certain states, for example, that's not specific to BDSM. I'd be curious to know what specific acts you're referring to.

quote:

Also, the type of relationship I have been referring to do not need to be consensual.

If not conensual (i.e., against another's consent is illegal), I wouldn't classify it as part of the power exchange dynamic.

quote:

At least not at ever time during the relationship. If a person is strong enough to mentally bind another to him, go for it I'd say. Consent doesn't always seem to be needed, although it is advisable to remember that doing unconsensual things can have legal consequences.

I'd have to disagree.

quote:

In fact, the type of slavery I was referring to in my examples is illegal is most countries. It is illegal to course somebody into marrying against their will, it is illegal to indoctrinate people in sects and take away their ability to make their own choices, it is illegal to intimidate an abused partner into staying in a relationship... yet... all of these things happen on a daily basis in our culture and very often, they result in a mindset where the subject does not feel they have the ability to exercise their legal right to leave.

Ahh... well, then I guess we're referring to different things. My positions are based in LEGAL and CONSENSUAL slavery.

quote:

Internal enslavement accomplishes the same thing in my opinion. It is consensual in the sense that it is entered into on the basis of a free choice, with the informed understanding that the goal of the process is to create a mental state in which the subject psychologically is no longer able to withdrawal consent.In this sense, it is illegal slavery, because I'm pretty sure that the courts would consider it brainwashing and indoctrination to willfully put another person in a mental state where they are unable to exercise their free choice, or legal rights.

Okay, so what you're referring to is "brain washing". Still, I would insist on my original premise, that everyone HAS THE CHOICE to stay/leave, and whether they elect to exercise that choice or not does not negate the choice still exists.

quote:

The example you brought up with Master Leadership and his Carol, is a perfect example of a relationship that identifies itself as "slavery", but where the goal never was to bring Carol in a mental state where she is unable to choose to remain in the relationship or not. On the contrary, Master Leadership has always said that her consent is important to him. This is a good example of one possibility to create a good, functional, fulfilling relationship between individuals under the name "slavery".

Actually, the reason I brought up that poster was because another poster here alluded to a lack of honesty on the part of those who've made the choice to leave their respective owner(s). It was less about their particular M/s dynamic, and more to show one cannot assume dishonesty.

Please note, I understand your position and the path in which you've arrived at it; I simply view this dynamic MUCH differently feel once we begin to exclude things like CONSENT, that we're simply not talking about the same things.

quote:

I wish you well,

And you.

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to ishyB)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 5:46:40 PM

ishyB

Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Please note, I understand your position and the path in which you've arrived at it; I simply view this dynamic MUCH differently feel once we begin to exclude things like CONSENT, that we're simply not talking about the same things.

Greetings Master,

I agree, we are speaking of different things if your position is that relationships under the self-identified name "slavery" always have to be consensual and legal. It still holds my original point though, that even though you might not think that those relationships are morally sound, they still DO exist.

As to what acts BDSM engage in that are illegal...
Last time I checked, in very many places, it IS illegal to wack somebody in the ass, even when consent is given beforehand.
It is often also illegal to restrain somebody to the point that they cannot release themselves, unless you have a special occupation that permits you to do so (police, doctor,...)

Granted, this might not hold true for all places, but it most surely IS true for at least some locations in Western countries. Is it your standpoint that people in those places should not be practicing consensual BDSM? And if you do condemn those people practicing illegal BDSM activities (in their region illegal), what is in your view the difference between them and people who practice internal enslavement and who consent to have their ability to consent to be removed?

I wish you well,

ishy

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 5:56:03 PM

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Joined: 10/11/2006
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That is an easy way to say "I have a bad position in my argument, and cannot do anything about it."

There are people here that are telling you that whether a slave has a choice or not, does not mean anything to some slaves. They do not have the ability any longer to choose to leave. You choose to ignore this, and not address it. Why? Is it because to address it and discuss it rationally would make your absolute statement incorrect?

So how much have you read on IE? I know a couple of slaves that have been with their owners for over a decade. During that time they have had some harsh treatment, but they did not have the ability to up and leave. Sure they had the choice, but they are so mentally and emotionally tied to their owners, they cannot leave.

Do you get it yet? It is almost as simple as Pavlov's theory, or have you ever read of that?

I can use more simple words if you need me to, so that you have an easier time understanding it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You can deny it all you wish.

I will... as I find your position based in fantasy, not reality.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 6:06:10 PM

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Joined: 10/11/2006
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~FR~

Battery is illegal in most states in the US, and does not require the person being battered to sign a complaint. With enough evidence the State can present it to a judge or Grand Jury to obtain a warrant for arrest. Much of the SM portion of BDSM includes consensual battery, but you cannot give legal consent to be battered, with exceptions for sanctioned sports.

It is always a good idea to check your state concerning it's laws. Some BDSM may actual fall under abuse laws, and in that case the State often brings the charges with a willing or unwilling victim.

So the premise of legality is shaky at best. I agree that one may have the right and choice to do something, but it does not mean they have the ability to do it. If the do not have the ability to do it, the choice or right is pretty invalid as it is just words on paper then. Power exchange relationships can begin with a consent to be conditioned, and with the implied meaning that meotional outbursts of "I am leaving" or "stop that" may be ignored because of the original basis of the relationship. Each person will need to determine where the line is for them, in such a relationship, and this requires constant communication. One thing that is not required is listening to someone that obviously has no experience with IE or consensual non-consent relationships.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 6:12:00 PM

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I want to say one thing:

The slave who is internally enslaved is still consenting to the relationship. They are not being held against their will. Their will is to stay. They have no choice in the matter, but they chose to give up that choice. No matter how bad things get they still WANT to stay. Non-consentual slavery doesn't begin until the person actively ATTEMPTS to leave and is prevented from doing so by SOMEONE ELSE. If they are the only thing preventing their own escape then they are consenting to being held. If they gave their consent to be indoctrinated with the internal mechanism to prevent their own escape then they have consented to internal slavery. No one is taking about holding a person captive who is actively TRYING to escape. Are they? Of course not !!! (I hope)

< Message edited by Hierodule -- 10/21/2009 6:13:12 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 6:19:57 PM

Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: yummee

If I choose to obey a rapist in order to preserve physical health rather than being beaten or killed, does that mean I have consented to sex with someone I have no desire to have sex with?

To rape? no... hence the importance of CONSENT in this dynamic. Thus, if you CHOOSE to stay with someone under the guise of the power exchange dynamic that you do NOT wish to be with, YOU HAVE CONSENTED.

quote:

All slavery in the US is illegal. There is no legal consentual slavery.

Which is why, as I've already stated, everyone (slaves included) have a CHOICE... as that choice, no matter how much one wishes to remove it, cannot be remove. Choice exists... regardless if anyone acts on that choice or not.

quote:

Emotionally, mentally, something inside me screaming that my very survival depends on obeying B, prevents me from walking out of that door with the intent of never returning. Perhaps it is a form of mentall illness. I would not argue that point, because honestly, I can see and understand that judgement by others of my condition. However, it does not change the condition. I have thus far been incapable of walking out the door with the intention of never returning. This has been tested in my life over the last several years over and over again. I have not yet been able to muster the will to leave with the intention of never returning.

And so, your CHOICE to "walk out the door" still exists -- just as I've stated -- as you've exercised it. Maybe your inability to "never return" is a "mental illness"... I don't know, as I don't know you. But still, you have CHOICE, despite the execution of said choice.

quote:

It's not about choice. Its about ability.

In this regard, we nearly agree... where choice and ability are different things. Consider for a moment that CHOICE still exists (as I've repeatedly stated), despite ability (what I've been calling "execution" and/or "action"); which is a separate issue. Your postion appears to be that "ability" trumps "choice". While I understand your position, I would argue CHOICE will eventually win out if the someone's honest choice is to leave. Note: This is not a new dynamic... battered women freqently behave in the same way, and stay/leave for their own reaons. But those that truly desire to leave, make the CHOICE to do so... and do.

quote:

Some people do not have the mental or emotional will that others have.

Well... yes and no. In many cases, I feel, one has simply weighed their options, and for their own personal reasons, have made the CHOICE to stay. Maybe they'd prefer not to stay... but maybe the CHOICE of not wanting to deal with the stresses of daily life... or to fend for little ones alone... or to change a standard of living... or whatever is greater. Still, a CHOICE has been made.

quote:

I would love to be able to choose all sorts of things for myself. My reality is, however, that those sorts of choices are simply outside my capability.

Actually, this supports what I just stated above... where the choice of slavery is the lesser of two evils, so to speak.

quote:

I kick myself because I feel like a friggin trained monkey could master me. As a matter of course, I submit, period, end of sentence. I am compelled to do so. Its right up there with OCD. Like people who stop the car every 50 feet because they think they've hit someone or run over someone. It may not be rational, but it is very very real. Those people are mentally or emotionally unable to go more than 50 feet without stopping the car to check under it for body parts. They have an overwhelming sense of dread that something horrible just happened, no matter how many times they check and never see body parts. No matter how much they realize intellectually that the issue is in their own head and not under their car. They don't really have a choice to just keep on driving and ignore that overwheling sense of dread. The rest of the world may have that choice ... but some people simply don't.

In all honestly, I find this analogy (to OCD) quite interesting. While my initial thought of this analogy is even those with OCD (who seek to dimish its effects) by actively working towards doing so, I do admit that I'd have to give this example much more thought. So thank you for that example.

quote:

Fortunately for me, I am usually quite happy and content with my situation. Mostly, I am grateful to belong to one who loves me and wants me to be happy.

Would this not POSSIBLY contribute to your CHOICE return after leaving? What I mean is... you've stated you're USUALLY quite happy and loved, so maybe it's less of a CHOICE (or ability) to leave, and MORE of a CHOICE to remain usually happy and loved???

quote:

I've been a slave (although we didnt call it slavery at the time) to men who didn't give a shit about my well being or happiness.

I'm assuming, despite your being a slave, you made the CHOICE to leave them, as you're now with someone else. Again, that's merely an assumption.

quote:

I'm actually quite scared at the thought that B's hold may somehow be lessened while I am away from him, because I know I would just be a slave to whoever comes along after him. That someone could very well be another man who doesn't give a damned about me, the person.

Okay... but again, isn't that simply a CHOICE of two evils, so to speak?

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to yummee)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 6:32:00 PM

Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You have quite the fragile ego to have to resort to making things personal. Thus, there is no value in communicating with you further. Your positions and posture smack of fantasy nonsense. Engage someone who doesn't find your behavior juvenile.

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 6:45:38 PM

Posts: 3991
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

Is it your standpoint that people in those places should not be practicing consensual BDSM?

We practice CONSENT in our dynamic... what others do is their business. I would not, however, support a non-consensual dynamic. Mind you, there is a difference between consensual non-consent, and non-consent.

quote:

And if you do condemn those people practicing illegal BDSM activities (in their region illegal)

I don't "condemn" anyone... but I don't have to AGREE with everyone either.

quote:

...what is in your view the difference between them and people who practice internal enslavement

I'm not sure I'm clear on who exactly "them" is... so, I'll simply state that it is grossly wrong to enslave/imprison one who does NOT desire to be enslaved/imprisoned.

quote:

...and who consent to have their ability to consent to be removed?

I believe you're referring to consensual non-consent, yes? If so, choice and consent has been given, and remains present.

< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 10/21/2009 6:47:20 PM >

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to ishyB)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 6:46:09 PM

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

Internal enslavement accomplishes the same thing in my opinion. It is consensual in the sense that it is entered into on the basis of a free choice, with the informed understanding that the goal of the process is to create a mental state in which the subject psychologically is no longer able to withdrawal consent.

However, illegal or not, this is still precisely the sort of relationship many men an women who self-identify as a "slave" are looking for, even though not all people who self-identify as a slave are looking for this type of relationship.

i disagree. i don't believe most are seeking internal enslavement because that comes after the party has been enslaved which of course comes down the line after the two are paired. there are a series of steps involved and for many it isn't a goal. the time and effort it takes to bring IE into fruition is not an overnight process. much of it depends on where the two are individually and how those things meld together as a pair.

when you consider surrender there are multiple levels involved. simply because a person has ceded their body doesn't mean the mind and emotions have been given to Him. at some point the girl comes to understand that she struggles more when she attempts to hold on to these things. all of this takes time and a serious investment on both parts. i find that most people that identify as slaves do so from the D/s or M/s vain. the numbers are far smaller for O/p and IE. the first two can exist without IE, though it is common to see it in many O/p relations.

i think those that generally find their way to IE have a particular psychological makeup that makes the dynamic attractive. if you look at what is involved rationally, most people simply don't have a desire to be yoked in that way. i believe the idea may be appealing to some, but the reality of what it implies and the fact that every fiber of your being would work to keep you tied to a person is a frightening concept for most. even if they never admitted such in public.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to ishyB)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 6:54:19 PM

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

No one is taking about holding a person captive who is actively TRYING to escape. Are they? Of course not !!! (I hope)

if the subject of leaving came up and i initiated it, i would expect my Owner to do what is necessary to repair the issue. thus preventing the breach and my departure. He maintains the authority to do what is needed to retain His property. i don't see His actions as inappropriate, but merely a manifestation of the realities of both being equally vested in the dynamic.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Hierodule)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 7:18:36 PM

Posts: 597
Joined: 9/22/2009
Status: offline

I feel like The fact that you brought it up to you partner would imply consent. Espeacially if you two already came to the agreement that you were to be kept at all costs . The agreement it's self is consent. You are consenting to non-consent. And I have to admit its kinda hot! I was talking about someone using brute force to physically prevent someone from walking out the door who had clearly stated that they have withdrawn their consent or who never consented to being captured in the first place.

If I consented to giving my body to someone for their use, anytime as they see fi,t then it is impossible for them to rape me. Even if they have sex with me when I absolutely don't want it. I already gave my consent to be used. So if you have consented to internal enslavement and they prevent you from leaving they aren't keeping you against your will becasue you consented to being prevented.

I'm talking in circles. No More from me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

No one is taking about holding a person captive who is actively TRYING to escape. Are they? Of course not !!! (I hope)

if the subject of leaving came up and i initiated it, i would expect my Owner to do what is necessary to repair the issue. thus preventing the breach and my departure. He maintains the authority to do what is needed to retain His property. i don't see His actions as inappropriate, but merely a manifestation of the realities of both being equally vested in the dynamic.

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: Do you ever wish you were not a slave - 10/21/2009 7:27:11 PM

Posts: 111
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

To rape? no... hence the importance of CONSENT in this dynamic. Thus, if you CHOOSE to stay with someone under the guise of the power exchange dynamic that you do NOT wish to be with, YOU HAVE CONSENTED.

Perhaps, but I'm really not so sure. In my case, I am compulsive in many areas, borderline OCD, although I can look at much of it with humor and recognize that these issues are mine. While I recognize these compulsions (organizational and domestic compulsions primarily) are irrational and not the norm for others, the compulsion still exists and is impossible to simply shrug off. Tentacles of this compulsive nature get wrapped in my relationships, I assume because they are so closely tied to my "nesting" nature ... home and hearth and all. B sees my nature and basically exploits my compulsions to get what he wants. I can see how outsiders would consider that I consent to this, but the overwhelming urge to obey does not feel like I am consenting *to me*. Not obeying causes great stress and an impending sense of dread. Something utterly horrible is going to happen if I disobey. Again, this is me, and others are likely very different.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Which is why, as I've already stated, everyone (slaves included) have a CHOICE... as that choice, no matter how much one wishes to remove it, cannot be remove. Choice exists... regardless if anyone acts on that choice or not.

As long as that person has the capacity to choose either or, I would agree. When it comes to choice, though, many people have dimished capacity. There are several processes that remove ability to choose from an individual. If I am understanding you, you consider that nonconsentual, therefor, null? From that standpoint, anyone unable to choose is unable to consent (or withdraw consent) and outside of the boundaries of your position. I think I would fall outside of your boundaries due to diminished capacity (way before B came along and continuing to this day).

Tangent: It probably sounds horrible to talk in terms of diminished capacity or mental illness. I know these sound like negatives, but I am not neccessarily viewing them this way. These are issues I have had all my life and accept and live with. I went through therapy as a young adult and the whole process was miserable. At some point, I just decided to accept and live with who I am rather than spend years of misery trying to become someone else. I am fine with who I am most of the time. I love myself all of the time. I get the occassional WTF moments, but I think "healthy" people get those too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

And so, your CHOICE to "walk out the door" still exists -- just as I've stated -- as you've exercised it. Maybe your inability to "never return" is a "mental illness"... I don't know, as I don't know you. But still, you have CHOICE, despite the execution of said choice.

I do not have the ability to walk out of the door at all IF I have in my mind that I will not be returning. I have the ability to walk out of the door to go to the grocery store, but not to walk out of the door to run home to mommy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

In this regard, we nearly agree... where choice and ability are different things. Consider for a moment that CHOICE still exists (as I've repeatedly stated), despite ability (what I've been calling "execution" and/or "action"); which is a separate issue. Your postion appears to be that "ability" trumps "choice". While I understand your position, I would argue CHOICE will eventually win out if the someone's honest choice is to leave. Note: This is not a new dynamic... battered women freqently behave in the same way, and stay/leave for their own reaons. But those that truly desire to leave, make the CHOICE to do so... and do.

I think I agree with you on this. If B makes choices that are very difficult or impossible for me to live with, and he continues to make those choices for us over a period of time, I would likely gain the ability to walk out the door, even to run home to mommy. There are things that can be done to degrade the relationship enough that I would be able to leave. That has happened in a previous relationship where my ex-husband drank to the point of bedwetting regularly. I moved in to the guest bedroom. It was another 2 years and a sherrif's deputy at the door before the relationship degraded enough that I left the house.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Well... yes and no. In many cases, I feel, one has simply weighed their options, and for their own personal reasons, have made the CHOICE to stay. Maybe they'd prefer not to stay... but maybe the CHOICE of not wanting to deal with the stresses of daily life... or to fend for little ones alone... or to change a standard of living... or whatever is greater. Still, a CHOICE has been made.

In most people, I agree. So many people resist change, even positive change ... out of fear or laziness perhaps. Some people, however, have been conditioned, brainwashed, whatever-you-call-it. Some people simply lack the mental or emotional ability. If we are talking about people who actively consent to this in their day to day lives, I would agree with you. I was referring to the range of people who don't consent any longer, which you are not referring to at all ... so apples and oranges I think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Actually, this supports what I just stated above... where the choice of slavery is the lesser of two evils, so to speak.

Right now, its feeling like the eviler of the two evils, lol. That's an oddity for us, though ... just a freak set of circumstances, no one's fault. So, if I think on this enough, I might agree with you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

In all honestly, I find this analogy (to OCD) quite interesting. While my initial thought of this analogy is even those with OCD (who seek to dimish its effects) by actively working towards doing so, I do admit that I'd have to give this example much more thought. So thank you for that example.

Its that same sense of impending doom, triggers those same feelings in me, which is why I made the comparison. I really have no idea if it is common among slaves who no longer consent (by consent? lol) I just know its the same feeling that blocks me from leaving when I get my panties in a twist that I get when I am caught up in my nesting-loop. The world is just going to stop spinning or something equally horrid is going to happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Would this not POSSIBLY contribute to your CHOICE return after leaving? What I mean is... you've stated you're USUALLY quite happy and loved, so maybe it's less of a CHOICE (or ability) to leave, and MORE of a CHOICE to remain usually happy and loved???

I hope so <3 My history doesn't really back this, though. I'm fortunate enough (and very grateful) to have an owner who loves me and wants me happy. In the past, I've stayed way too long in relationships where he didn't love me or want me happy. Usually, I stay till he leaves. If I'm unhappy, he's likely to be unhappy too ;)~

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

I'm assuming, despite your being a slave, you made the CHOICE to leave them, as you're now with someone else. Again, that's merely an assumption.

Usually, I wait for them to leave. I did leave two, though, so I must have a pair of balls somewhere. Point taken.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Okay... but again, isn't that simply a CHOICE of two evils, so to speak?

Possibly, but it really is pretty overwhelming. I'd call it diminished capacity in my case. Don't get me wrong, I am fully functional, employed, happy, and so on. I do recognize that I made a trade-off, though. I could have worked on and possibly fixed some skewed wiring in my head. It really was a miserable process, though, and I just found it much easier on myself to accept and love myself as I am. That was a choice, and continues to be a choice. If I ever get to the point that I can't function on my own and *need* someone to take care of (cause my compulsion isnt about being taken care of, lol), I'll likely look at that therapy route again. I would have to be pretty unhappy to go that route, though, cause it was day in and day out of being pushed way outside my comfort zone ... and no light at the end of the tunnel, probably for years. I'm just not willing to do that when I'm pretty happy most of the time.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

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