RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 4:57:45 AM

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Coming up with a precise definition would be difficult, but I think if we use the "reasonable person" standard, we know when we are being inappropriate. There is more latitude in a nightclub than there is in the grocery store. More freedom in an adults only situation as opposed to a place where kids can view what is going on. Certain activities might be a little different, but not overtly sexual. I believe most of us know when we have crossed that line and are just being jerks.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 5:11:04 AM

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quote:

If there is the chance that what someone is doing/saying is a personal reflection of something positive/beautiful in their life, I'm likely to be all for it. My predisposition is to treat such events, by default, as expressions of such rather than indications of 'attention whoring'. Exemptions would be when the person doing/saying things appears to clearly be going out of their way to do said things in front of someone or in front of a specific audience.

I guess my question would be what is so integral to the relationship that we feel it is necessary to make it obvious in public?
I believe that the positive and beautiful aspects of any relationship, D/s or not, can be continued and manifested in or out of one's own home. But I admit that I am a bit biased regarding more blatant activities like leading the submissive on a leash at the mall. I see those kind of things as a grandstand move and I'm not at all clear what the motivation would be other than to get a lot of negative attention.
Even so, I do not view our society in general as naïve to the point that anyone would be so traumatized by it that they would flee in terror or need to see a therapist.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 5:36:38 AM

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There are some variable factors here that have some bearing which direction the scheme goes but really, there's not much difference between the two points. When a pair of kinky individuals has decided to involve vanilla others in their kink it's a conscious decision to do something in front of or in proximity to other vanilla folks so they can see it. The idea is for them to notice the activity, be it good or bad, short term or long term, whereas just not feeling the need to hide is a bit more along the lines of doing it because they wa nt to do it when they want to do it and if someone happens to be there well then that's the way it goes.

How acceptable the behavior is really depends on a few factors that mostly been covered by others in the forum before me like the age of the potential viewers, how disruptive the behavior is, and especially how fast the behavior happens where they can see it. Even people who would absolutely hate to see their kids see a woman on a leash won't say anything if the man walks by with the woman at speed. The same is true if you see something in a deserted public park around sunset. There are a lot of other factors I'm probably forgetting.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 6:16:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Where do you personally draw the line between "imposing your kink on unwilling bystanders" and simply "refusing to live a closeted life"?

Wearing a collar in public is just a refusal to take off what you wear otherwise, whereas calling a saleswoman "Mistress" is inappropriate.

I'll have my sub wear a collar in public, I'm under the impression that the general public is acclimated enough to that sort of thing that it isn't an issue. I am curious about your collar argument though; what would be the difference between it and the argument that being a nudist in public is just a refusal to dress differently than a nudist normally would?

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 6:48:44 AM

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~FR~

Social conformity is not my thing. As long as what I am doing does not cause an actual disturbance, it is not imposing anything on anyone. We all agree to certain things by going into the public eye. I may not like screaming kids, that pitch a fit and cry in the middle of the store, but I understand that is part of going beyond the walls of my home. If my girl wearing an eternity collar, anklets, calling me Master, walking behind me and to my left, bothers someone then they need to think about staying in their home.

Within the confines of the law, I interact with my slave the same just about anywhere. We do have some discreet signals for certain things, when the occasion calls for it, such as a private dinner or in someone's private home.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 7:27:04 AM

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When this topic came up in another thread someone made a general comment about micromanagement and fun and how sometimes it can be hot as pertained to the discussion in the tread. i made the comment about micromanagement and hotness concerning something that had happened to me (completely by accident) earlier that day. i had found a killer pair of heels i wanted when the sales girl asked if i wanted to buy them i told her yes but i need permission first. when taken in this context, everyone seemed to think it was ok. i didn't think about what popped out of my mouth it just did. i knew this was a frivolous purchase and something of an ask before acting situation. a seemingly harmless conversation, but put in combination with the state Master currently had me in, i found it to be very hot. As soon as i added that i found the situation hot, even though it happened on accident, someone took offense to it claiming i had involved someone else in my kink. (guess i should explain that i first mentioned i found the situation hot the after the outrage explained how it came about) Why is it if you mention something is hot people suddenly think it was intentional and jump to assumptions, take that 1 little word out of the equasion and suddenly everything is hunky dorey?

His baby girl

< Message edited by HimNbabygirl -- 11/22/2009 7:28:22 AM >

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 7:30:39 AM

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quote:

Where do you personally draw the line between "imposing your kink on unwilling bystanders" and simply "refusing to live a closeted life"?

refusing to live a closeted life......wearing a collar in public

imposing kink on unwilling bystanders.........attaching a leash to it.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 7:33:37 AM

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Intent and consideration is what it boils down to for me. If I intend to shock or make people uncomfortable or offend them, then it's out of line. If there is no intent to do that, I would then have to ask myself am I considering others around me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elipsis

Lets take the leash example again. If your attitude is that "I really enjoy leading my sub around on a leash and the two of us have a need to go to the mall to take care of some things," well then that would be an activity where the focus is your partner that just happens to take place in public. Other people are only as involved as they choose to by observing your behavior and give a shit.

On the other hand the exact same activity becomes more focused on others when you decide that you are doing this in public primarily to get a reaction from bystanders. At that point you can't have your fun without those people seeing what you're doing and reacting with surprise / indignation / whatever.

In the above example, consider for a moment that a 6 year old happened to notice the behavior while their parent is browsing a rack of clothing. At some point it's likely that the 6 year old is going to ask mommy or daddy why that man is walking that lady with a leash. In that situation, the parent finds themselves forced into an extremely uncomfortable situation and on the spot to come up with an answer that will satisfy the curiosity of a 6 year old and not cause any distress at the same time. I don't know about you, but I'd never want to be in that position.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elipsis

Breast-feeding is a little bit of a different animal, however, because there is the additional argument that feeding is "necessary" ...or at the very least more directly related to an actual legitimate physical need than, say, public play.

Breast-feeding is no different. It boils down to intent and consideration.

There are women that wish to shock and offend and will whip out the tit anywhere. There are women that when the necessity arises, will either find a private or low traffic area or will discreetly cover up with a light blanket or outter clothing.

One is considerate, the other is out to offend, make others uncomfortable or out for attention.

I honestly can't think of a situation where a woman can not excuse herself to find a secluded space to tend to her child's needs. People manage to do just that when they have to change a diaper. What's the difference?

Edited to correct a grammatical error.

< Message edited by NyDaddysGirl -- 11/22/2009 7:36:21 AM >

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 7:40:04 AM

SomethingCatchy

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Breast feeding... My pregnant friend insists that she's going to breast feed in public because 'It's natural and people should just get over it.'

I personally do not want to see tits while I'm shopping at the mall or deciding what I want to cook for dinner at the supermarket, and I really don't see how it isn't nudity since if I walked around with my tits hanging out I'd get arrested. I guess creating more people to be on an already crowded planet warrants special 'rights' like flashing your boobs in public.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 7:44:52 AM

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I think part of what you have to look at here is a combination of the two. Those two being intent and social climate.

While I am rather conservative on where I set My personal boundaries on the 'imposing' issue, I agree that some of this comes back to which activities are accepted within social norms. For example, I honestly don't feel that someone wearing a leather collar in public is involving other people in kink. We certainly don't sit around and debate whether or not it is appropriate for someone to wear their wedding band if they go out to a restaurant. We don't link the association from that wedding band, to two people are married, to people who are married are (hopefully) having a sex life, therefore the wedding ring is an obvious announcement that the people are having sex, so that isn't appropriate.

Truthfully, I feel the same way about titles in public. I don't see why anybody should be up in arms over My boy saying "Mistress" when speaking to Me as any different than someone saying else "sweetheart" or any other term. I'm not going to pussyfoot around worrying over whether or not a third party overhears that while standing in line at a movie theater. I'm not directly interacting with a third party intentionally. It's the normal flow of conversation for us.

In the earlier example, someone used "My Mistress stepped away, but would like the lobster". Why should that be any different than "My wife stepped away...."? How much are we really imposing on that third party in that kind of a situation? Granted, I think it's inappropriate to address the waitress themselves as 'Mistress' or 'girl' but that is more due to My opinions that associate with using those terms toward anyone who isn't involved with you (general you) in a dynamic.

I really do tend to look at it in comparison with the general public. If other people can hold hands in public, so can we. Foot worship in the middle of the mall isn't any more appropriate than any other type of foreplay that vanilla people would chose to keep in the privacy of their own homes. I don't see the need to go out of My way to make others uncomfortable (walking him on a leash down main street) but I'm also not going to censor Myself to the point of ridiculousness.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 7:55:45 AM

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quote:

Where do you personally draw the line between "imposing your kink on unwilling bystanders" and simply "refusing to live a closeted life"?

Interesting. I'm not even a fan of French kissing in public, and I'm French! ;-)

I guess because I crave intimacy and privacy in all things sensual and sexual, this is a non-issue for me. I don't want to share my kink anymore than I want to witness others do it. My play partners are well advised that any public display of kink will absolutely not be tolerated, not out of shame, but out of modesty.

- LA

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 8:02:21 AM

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In the earlier example, someone used "My Mistress stepped away, but would like the lobster". Why should that be any different than "My wife stepped away...."? How much are we really imposing on that third party in that kind of a situation? Granted, I think it's inappropriate to address the waitress themselves as 'Mistress' or 'girl' but that is more due to My opinions that associate with using those terms toward anyone who isn't involved with you (general you) in a dynamic.

Thank you LP for this thought.

~~FR

Speaking from a waitresses point of view... we dont care who you are dining with. It can be your Mistress, your Lover, your mistress (note the difference) your fuck toy... we dont care. Why anyone would assume we need to know that is your Mistress, or your wife, or any other hundreds of names you could call your dining partner is beyond us.

For those i know in the lifestyle, typically simply saying... I am ordering for us both... is enough, discreet, and sufficient, unless you feel a need to expose your private lives to perfect strangers, then that is pushing your kink onto others, imho.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 8:05:48 AM

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if you ask me about it dont be upset when i tell you. im not going to go out of my way to show that im a slave but i wont hide my collar when in public and when asked i will explain it. as far as breast feeding in public it can be done without showing the breast and it is what the things are there to do in the first place, plus there is no diffrence in the law as to a bare chested male or female.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 8:07:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Where do you personally draw the line between "imposing your kink on unwilling bystanders" and simply "refusing to live a closeted life"?

Wearing a collar in public is just a refusal to take off what you wear otherwise, whereas calling a saleswoman "Mistress" is inappropriate.

I'll have my sub wear a collar in public, I'm under the impression that the general public is acclimated enough to that sort of thing that it isn't an issue. I am curious about your collar argument though; what would be the difference between it and the argument that being a nudist in public is just a refusal to dress differently than a nudist normally would?

If you're on the city's property, you follow the city's laws. Nudity is against the law, a collar isn't.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 8:19:40 AM

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quote:

Breast-feeding is no different. It boils down to intent and consideration.

There are women that wish to shock and offend and will whip out the tit anywhere. There are women that when the necessity arises, will either find a private or low traffic area or will discreetly cover up with a light blanket or outter clothing.

One is considerate, the other is out to offend, make others uncomfortable or out for attention.

quote:

I honestly can't think of a situation where a woman can not excuse herself to find a secluded space to tend to her child's needs. People manage to do just that when they have to change a diaper. What's the difference?

i have been in many situations where a "secluded"space is not available. In that case, discretion comes into play. I do not have any desire to expose myself in public, and have never done so...but have fed my infant when the need arose.

As to changing a diaper...it can generally wait. Most infants do not flip a fit if their diaper is wet...but dayyy-um...if they are hungry they will make it known!
And diapers can be changed in a public bathroom. No infant should be fed there.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 8:26:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

[
quote:

I honestly can't think of a situation where a woman can not excuse herself to find a secluded space to tend to her child's needs. People manage to do just that when they have to change a diaper. What's the difference?

i have been in many situations where a "secluded"space is not available. In that case, discretion comes into play. I do not have any desire to expose myself in public, and have never done so...but have fed my infant when the need arose.

As to changing a diaper...it can generally wait. Most infants do not flip a fit if their diaper is wet...but dayyy-um...if they are hungry they will make it known!
And diapers can be changed in a public bathroom. No infant should be fed there.

Ahhh, point well taken.

My vehicle (or the one I rode in) is always with me, so I hadn't considered it might not be an option for some, but that is where the light blanket comes into play.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 9:16:37 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy

Breast feeding... My pregnant friend insists that she's going to breast feed in public because 'It's natural and people should just get over it.'

I personally do not want to see tits while I'm shopping at the mall or deciding what I want to cook for dinner at the supermarket, and I really don't see how it isn't nudity since if I walked around with my tits hanging out I'd get arrested. I guess creating more people to be on an already crowded planet warrants special 'rights' like flashing your boobs in public.

I tend to agree with your friend. It IS natural and it's the vehicle by which infants get their sustenance.

I don't know one single woman, including myself, that breast fed in public as some kind of theatrical show. It's not *doing it publically*.....it's feeding your infant because that's how they GET fed, it's FAR less intrusive for the poor sensitive souls around, to quell a wailing infant's cry of hunger by popping your nipple in...peace reigns.

In my experience, a babies head covers most of the boob anyway.

Most heads sit atop this amazing thing called a neck......which has the ability to turn the head and change the view.

agirl

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 9:23:53 AM

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FR

I love discrete public play.
Discrete meaning nothing so obvious as to make someone else uncomfortable.

A look, a touch, an unexpected kiss or perhaps even something a bit more personal but shielded from public view.

What I love about it is that it is paradoxically intimate.
He will engage me and the rest of the world just drops away.

Edit: duplicate wording

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 11/22/2009 9:33:58 AM >

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 9:45:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Speaking from a waitresses point of view... we dont care who you are dining with. It can be your Mistress, your Lover, your mistress (note the difference) your fuck toy... we dont care. Why anyone would assume we need to know that is your Mistress, or your wife, or any other hundreds of names you could call your dining partner is beyond us.

For those i know in the lifestyle, typically simply saying... I am ordering for us both... is enough, discreet, and sufficient, unless you feel a need to expose your private lives to perfect strangers, then that is pushing your kink onto others, imho.

It's really just more pushing your private lives to perfect strangers. It doesn't matter if that private life is kinky. Some people like to say "my wife." Some kinky folks don't want to be chastised for saying "my Mistress." Following the established norms for what is socially acceptable to announce in public (basic identifying information about a couple's relationship status) strikes me as fine. I don't think that dining in a restaurant and stating "my slave will have the ceaser salad" is pushing your kink on others, unless, as already noted, you're getting off on shocking or offending the server. As a server, if someone said that to me, that would convey basic information to me about how to relate to the parties at the table. I may think the guy is an idiot or guilty of an overshare (and as you note, customers tend to offer up all sorts of irrelevant personal information) but I wouldn't feel like an active participant in his kink.

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RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the n... - 11/22/2009 9:48:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

FR

I love discrete public play.
Discrete meaning nothing so obvious as to make someone else uncomfortable.

A look, a touch, an unexpected kiss or perhaps even something a bit more personal but shielded from public view.

What I love about it is that it is paradoxically intimate.
He will engage me and the rest of the world just drops away.

I agree that very discrete public play is paradoxically. Since one of my fetishes and rules is chivalry, I guess that falls under the umbrella of public play.

I therefore revise my earlier position. ;-)

- LA

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