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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 9:01:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Yet with the female as the dominant and the male as the submissive/service role, it is considered 'exposing minors to kink'.

I don't think women commonly knelt and kissed men's feet or ate out of slave bowls - and all in front of children - even in those 'good old days', LaT . . .

Hense the word 'similar'. I specifically avoided saying anything like 'exactly like', for that reason.

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 9:03:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Using fast reply......

I have been thinking about this thread and while the described situation is definitely not something I can support, I find it interesting to consider that for hundreds of years, there was very similar lifestyles with reverse gender and we often hear/read it referred to, as "the good old days" and most people don't really think much about it. Yet with the female as the dominant and the male as the submissive/service role, it is considered 'exposing minors to kink'. Odd.

I was thinking the same thing. While growing up, I watched as my mom served my dad meals, took care of the house, laided out my dad's clothes for the next day, took the time each day before he would come home from work to "beautify" herself and have a snack ready for him. We kids knew when they went into their bedroom it was for more than a nap or to read a book. I saw my dad swat my mom on the ass a few times in playful fun and never thought twice about it.

What I didn't experience was my mother kneeling on the floor to eat from a dog dish (she would have rammed it down his throat) or stood by while she did all the chores and we did nothing (yeah, that idea would have gone over like a lead balloon) or heard them going at it having wild monkey sex, full of screaming and whatever else monkeys do during "nap time".

I see no reason why children can't be taught to experience different ways of living or different family structures...I actually find it healthy to expose them to many different things. With one caveat...rememeber to keep it age-appropriate and remember to use common sense. I don't know many girls of 15 who understand the nuances of a M/s dynamic and, to be honest, I don't feel they need to be exposed to the humiliation of mommy's partner eating from a "slave dish" dog bowl. I also don't agree with not teaching children responsibility and accountability which is one of the goals of chores. Teaching them to expect to be cared for by men isn't teaching them anything but how to be a sponge. It was my dad who instilled in all us girls the necessity of self-sufficiency...he wanted us to be able to run our own lives with the understanding that a man/partner would compliment our lives not be a means to an end.

OP, I believe you were equally responsible for what these girls were exposed to. If it bothered you, it was your responsibility as an adult to speak up and say so. It is the adult's responsibility to teach a child to be able to navigate the reality of adulthood with the skills needed. That requires resonsibility, accountability and a healthy amount of self-sufficiency all wrapped up in good old common sense.

*edited to add....LaTigresse, I wasn't doing more than commenting on the fact that I agreed with the "good old days" statement you made. The rest was a general reply and in response to the OP.

< Message edited by CarrieO -- 12/18/2009 9:10:32 AM >

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 9:11:41 AM

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Yes, and some of the things, nuances of activities that were/are acceptable with the traditional M/f roles would and still do, depend upon location and culture.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 9:17:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I don't see anything wrong with teaching the offspring of different types of relationships. That includes female led, poly, homosexual, or any other such thing. The bit about them having no responsibility in the house or being able to overhear the kinkier parts of play doesn't sit well with Me. It really is possible to find a healthier middle ground.

i agree with LadyPact

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 9:29:49 AM

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CarrieO, I want to thank you for taking the time to type out exactly what I was thinking.

There is a line here. There are a lot of things that are commonly accepted when done in a vanilla relationship, that if the very same thing is done and there is a D/s structure in place, people suddenly find the very same thing no longer acceptable. If we're talking about singular acts such as taking off someone's shoes or getting someone else a drink, nobody would bat an eye. There are a lot of things on that list. Getting morning coffee, having a particular type of soda stocked at home, drawing a bath, opening a door, carrying packages, dinner being ready, and scores of other examples. Kinky people don't have the corner of the market when it comes to doing things in life to make a partner's day better or easier.

Where the line of what's appropriate gets crossed is where it is kink and can only be kink. The slave dish on the floor as referenced by the OP is an example of this. When you have a household where little people are involved, certain activities should only be done behind closed doors. Another location is another possibility.

I think it's important to know where that line is, without saying everything in a committed D/s structure is automatically kink and can't possibly be a loving expression between people.

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 9:33:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Yet with the female as the dominant and the male as the submissive/service role, it is considered 'exposing minors to kink'.

I don't think women commonly knelt and kissed men's feet or ate out of slave bowls - and all in front of children - even in those 'good old days', LaT . . .

Hense the word 'similar'. I specifically avoided saying anything like 'exactly like', for that reason.

True. Eating out of slave bowls and kneeling and kissing feet is kink-related; the rest of it is more of to do with traditional roles, but reversed.

I'd still object to the latter, though, in part because it's sexist. The two-wrongs-make-a-right argument holds no water for me. For me, it would be equally objectionable to see a child being encouraged to believe that women are/should be servile to men.

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 9:43:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

CarrieO, I want to thank you for taking the time to type out exactly what I was thinking.

As always, LadyPact, it's my pleasure!

I hope you and yours have a lovely holiday in your new location.

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 10:44:19 AM

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You speak of this relationship in past tense. Why did it end? Twenty is grown. Fifteen is close. As long as mom was not exposing the underage one to anything sexual or illegal, she has every right to instill female superiority in her daughters.

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 10:49:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

True. Eating out of slave bowls and kneeling and kissing feet is kink-related; the rest of it is more of to do with traditional roles, but reversed.

I'd still object to the latter, though, in part because it's sexist. The two-wrongs-make-a-right argument holds no water for me. For me, it would be equally objectionable to see a child being encouraged to believe that women are/should be servile to men.

Peon, I think we are in agreement as far as what we deem appropriate and would wish to happen in our own lives.

I was simply expressing a thought I had regarding the difference in reaction, even my own, when the gender roles were reversed from what we have historically accepted. I know of several lifestyle choices that have nothing to do with BDSM and kink that treat women and children as second class citizens and preach the reasoning and one true way. The Amish culture is one of them. Yet it is accepted in the community and even seen as a quaint and gentle lifestyle. The truth is quite different.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 10:53:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal
As long as mom was not exposing the underage one to anything sexual or illegal, she has every right to instill female superiority in her daughters.

As much right as instilling male superiority into them, I suppose . . .

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 10:54:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

You speak of this relationship in past tense. Why did it end? Twenty is grown. Fifteen is close. As long as mom was not exposing the underage one to anything sexual or illegal, she has every right to instill female superiority in her daughters.

Yes parents have the right to bring up their kids any way they see fit. Some of my cousins were brought up in a home where a race was taught as superior not a gender. Some of my cousins learned to overcome that up bringing, and sadly some did not.

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 11:00:29 AM

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There is nothing right about teaching young people that one gender is to do all chores while they sit and watch tv and expect that gender to provide for their happiness as well as making their way in life! They are not given the tools to survive unless there is someone to take care of them. This is creating selfish adults who cannot take care of themselves and this will get them into trouble in a very vanilla world.

What do we think of those young ladies that swarm this place, expecting life to be handed to them on a platter?

I wouldn't set my kids up for something like that and that I feel is abuse. My job is to help teach them a way to take care of themselves, be productive and honorable. Well... not just those things... I did not raise children... and never said I was raising children. I didn't want children when I was done. So in raising adults... I need to teach them to be adults, not kinky dominatrix with attitude and serious lacks of charactor.

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 11:02:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Using fast reply......

I have been thinking about this thread and while the described situation is definitely not something I can support, I find it interesting to consider that for hundreds of years, there was very similar lifestyles with reverse gender and we often hear/read it referred to, as "the good old days" and most people don't really think much about it. Yet with the female as the dominant and the male as the submissive/service role, it is considered 'exposing minors to kink'. Odd.

You are quite right although I wouldn't refer to them as the good old days and I'd disagree with the situation just as much if the gender roles were reserved. Personally, I think the kink bits are the feet kissing and bowl. The not making the kids do chores is just bad parenting and the rest is sexism. So, overall, I don't think the situation is exposing the kids to kink. It's just not something that, IMHO, is not a good situation to raise kids in.

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 11:04:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal
As long as mom was not exposing the underage one to anything sexual or illegal, she has every right to instill female superiority in her daughters.

Legally yes. Morally I disagree.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to slavekal)

RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 11:13:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

True. Eating out of slave bowls and kneeling and kissing feet is kink-related; the rest of it is more of to do with traditional roles, but reversed.

I'd still object to the latter, though, in part because it's sexist. The two-wrongs-make-a-right argument holds no water for me. For me, it would be equally objectionable to see a child being encouraged to believe that women are/should be servile to men.

Peon, I think we are in agreement as far as what we deem appropriate and would wish to happen in our own lives.

I was simply expressing a thought I had regarding the difference in reaction, even my own, when the gender roles were reversed from what we have historically accepted. I know of several lifestyle choices that have nothing to do with BDSM and kink that treat women and children as second class citizens and preach the reasoning and one true way. The Amish culture is one of them. Yet it is accepted in the community and even seen as a quaint and gentle lifestyle. The truth is quite different.

Fair enough, LaT . . . .

The law, and people's ethical views, don't reach as far into the private realm as they do into the public realm. An upshot is that we can voice our moral opinions about the ways in which e.g. women and children are treated in the Amish community, but it's not likely to have as great effect as some of us might want.

Nonetheless children aren't commonly accepted as belonging solely to the private realm. Children are the responsibility of society as a whole, not just of their parents. So, a balance needs to be struck between parents and wider society. This balance, as it stands right now, implies that I can't do more than argue with most of what certain parents do regarding the way that they bring up their children. If children are being obviously harmed, though, I can step in because a lot of such harm is considered unlawful. Adults exposing their BDSM activities in front of them - well, borderline unlawful, at least, I'd say. Quite possibly more so in parts of the USA than here the UK, I'd suspect.

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 11:18:37 AM

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Yes parents have the right to bring up their kids any way they see fit.

No, they don't. Not morally or legally. Reasons as stated above.

Please google Fred and Rosemary West for an example of why that view is barely accepted anywhere.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 12/18/2009 11:21:52 AM >

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 11:22:19 AM

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That was a fast reply btw.......

To use the Amish again as an example......child labour laws apply as do the newer laws put in place specifically because of the Amish regarding education.

So definitely no, parents do not have the legal right to raise their children however they wish.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 12/18/2009 11:23:05 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 11:30:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Yes parents have the right to bring up their kids any way they see fit.

No, they don't. Not morally or legally. Reasons as stated above.

Please google Fred and Rosemary West for an example of why that view is barely accepted anywhere.

i did mean that sentence in the context of the OP. Not as a broad blanket statement. Here is the entire quote i made, i hope it clears up the misunderstanding by putting it back in the context it was said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone
Yes parents have the right to bring up their kids any way they see fit. Some of my cousins were brought up in a home where a race was taught as superior not a gender. Some of my cousins learned to overcome that up bringing, and sadly some did not.

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RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 11:38:02 AM

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In my mind, that would fall under morally wrong. Just because they have the legal right, does not make it right.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to breatheasone)

RE: Is it right for daughters - 12/18/2009 11:38:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

In my mind, that would fall under morally wrong. Just because they have the legal right, does not make it right.

Yes, thats 200% correct.

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