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Bottom or sub or slave - 1/6/2010 4:39:43 PM

curls84

Posts: 11
Joined: 10/29/2009
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Hello. After doing a bit more reading i am trying to find where i fit more in the categories for submissive men. i am pretty sure i am not a slave, unless it would grow on me, and yesterday i came across someones definitive difference between sub and bottom. According to them a bottom is someone who will allow whoever they're with, friend with benifits, g/f, mistress, whatever to do things to them. And a submissive kind of takes it further with the house cleaning and such. And a slave is owned property, and some believe they have no limits if you are such. I am inclined to think i am a bottom but i only know that term from the book 'i hope they serve beer in hell' and it was in reference to pitchers and catchers. Would any Mistresses out there care to give me their input on the difference between the three. I am finding slight variations in them whenever i google it, or read someones opinion on it.

Post #: 1

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/6/2010 5:14:05 PM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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I'm willing to bet you are going to be more confused at the end of this post than you are now.

There are really no official definitions though I think there are some that will resemble one another. These are my definitions and I expect someone to disagree with me gracefully and I half expect someone to flame me ;-)

slave - someone who gives up everything to someone, lives in a life of servitude and relinquishes the right to make decisions / goes with Owner, Mistress or Master

submissive - someone who submits actively to someone while keeping a certain degree of independance and autonomy / goes with Domme, FemDom, Domina, Dominant, Dom (not Dominate! LOL)

bottom - for me this is an S&M term more than a D/s term, indicating the one on the receiving end of play / goes with Top

For example, I am a Dominant but I don't really do the Mistress thing (unless isolated in play). I am also a Top and have been known now and then to be a bottom. I have no desire to submit.

What is most important is knowing what you want and being able to communicate that to others.

- LA

Edited.... a lot. :-s

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/6/2010 5:29:09 PM >

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Post #: 2

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/6/2010 5:27:08 PM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

Posts: 1269
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From: Portland Metro, Oregon
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Yep, as LadyAngelika pointed out, everyone's definition varies. The only definition that matters is the one that you and your partner (play partner, significant other, whomever) feel fit your situation. My definitions are below:

Bottom: The person receiving in play. That person can be submissive or dominant.
Top: The one doling out whatever activity is occuring. Again, that person can be submissive or dominant.

Submissive: One who submits. This person follows the lead of another, often does things they wouldn't necessarily do for themselves, but because it makes their partner happy, they do these things. While they submit, freely of their own will, because it makes them happy to see their partner happy, they still negotiate with their partner things they will not do and their partner (if a caring Dominant) honors those limits.

Slave: One who relinquishes all control to their Owner/Master. This person in my opinion should take great care in whom they allow to own them. This person not only submits to their partner, but gives up the rights to make decisions regarding their own self. However, since it is illegal to own a non-consensual slave, this person does retain one right, and that right is to leave if their owner is not compatible.

While my definitions may differ from others, they are MY definitions and anyone with whom I have a relationship of this nature should have a VERY similar definition of these terms. You may find that your definitions of these terms vary greatly from mine, and that is perfectly ok. You just need to find someone whose definitions match your own.

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Post #: 3

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/6/2010 6:26:37 PM

vincentML

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As quickly as you say everybody's definition varies, the game is over. Anyway, what does it matter to the OP what label is used if a good time is being had?

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Post #: 4

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/6/2010 6:32:57 PM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

what does it matter to the OP what label is used if a good time is being had?

Ummm... it matters to the OP because he asked?

.
.
.
Yup, that's my final answer. ;-)

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/6/2010 6:33:27 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Post #: 5

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/6/2010 8:09:55 PM

Andalusite

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Joined: 1/25/2009
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In my opinion, a bottom is primarily interested in S/M and/or bondage, while a submissive or slave is primarily driven by control and service. The distinction between submissive and slave is largely one of degree, and the expectations of one person might be completely different from another. You might find that you are only a bottom in one relationship, while you might feel deeply submissive toward, or want to become owned by, someone else at another time. I think it's best to keep an open mind, especially if you don't have a lot of experience yet.

I am a switch, and started out for 5 years as a Domme, had a couple of relationships as a top, a bottom, or as a switch, and didn't experience submission until I'd been actively doing BDSM for over 10 years. I was a submissive for 3 years in my last relationship, and am currently a slave to my Master of 7 months, and have a female submissive playpartner who I am somewhat dominant toward. For me, it depends on the interaction with the specific person. You might likewise find that it is relatively fluid, or that one specific relationship dynamic suits you best.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 1/6/2010 8:14:30 PM >

(in reply to curls84)

Post #: 6

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/6/2010 8:40:05 PM

LadyDelilahDeb

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Joined: 10/29/2009
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A bottom is a masochist; one who enjoys some aspect(s) of physical sensation involved in the wide, wider, widest array of activites included under the lump term BDSM. Sadist and masochist (top and bottom) in the Scene refers simply to who is hitting or tying and who is getting hit or tied. Physical, physiological, sensual, sensation.

A submissive, or sub, is one who enjoys/chooses a role that is subordinate to another person (the dominant human). Every relationship between two individuals is its own entity. One human may be submissive only in one specific pair relationship, and dominant in every other. Or a person may be submissive/deferrent by nature and prefers to leave choice, decisions, leadership to others, any other. It's a really big topic, but the the core of dominance and submission is essentially psychological and not physical.

I'll leave definitions of "slave" to those who choose to operate in the Mastery–slavery universe. Not my universe, so I'm not really the person to attempt it.

Lady Delilah Deb

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(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 7

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 2:42:45 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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FR

This . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

The distinction between submissive and slave is largely one of degree, and the expectations of one person might be completely different from another. You might find that you are only a bottom in one relationship, while you might feel deeply submissive toward, or want to become owned by, someone else at another time. I think it's best to keep an open mind, especially if you don't have a lot of experience yet.

. . . and very much this

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

As quickly as you say everybody's definition varies, the game is over. Anyway, what does it matter to the OP what label is used if a good time is being had?

. . . for me.

I'd add the further definition that someone who likes to 'bottom' with his/her partner, but only some of the time, is half of a bottom - that is, a 'buttock'.

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Post #: 8

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 5:36:56 AM

curls84

Posts: 11
Joined: 10/29/2009
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Thanks everyone. Your replies were very helpful.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 9

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 2:48:50 PM

MsHValentine

Posts: 80
Joined: 1/6/2010
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Well, several domme friends and myself consider slaves and submissives as adults who enjoy transferring authority to another person in areas in and out of the bedroom. Slaves serve in a greater capacity and have fewer limits. Bottoms do not serve; instead, they are served by the Top Dominant who enjoys giving pleasure to the Bottom.

(in reply to curls84)

Post #: 10

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 3:52:21 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

The first two explanations were pretty good. However, I don't necessarily agree with those that followed, so I'm going to add My two cents in on the definitions.

Bottom - A bottom is the receiver of sensations during play. A bottom is the receiver of sensations that the top provides. In relation, very simply within the conjugated verb 'to do', the top is the do-er and the bottom is the do-ee. A bottom is not necessarily a masochist. There is plenty in BDSM that doesn't involve pain. In other words, I can tie someone up without hurting them. That makes them a bottom in a bondage scene.

Submissive - A submissive is someone who submits to a Dominant. They voluntarily chose to turn areas of their life over to the will of the Dominant's authority. This is someone who is more content when someone else holds some degree of control in some, if not all areas of their life.

Slave - A slave is someone who serves a Master/Mistress. Generally speaking the Master/Mistress has more control over the slave and has a higher level of authority. Depending on who you ask, a slave may or may not be permitted to have the same retention of control of their lives as a submissive does. This terms is also used more often in certain subsections of various types of BDSM culture, such as the leather community.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Post #: 11

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 4:22:36 PM

MsHValentine

Posts: 80
Joined: 1/6/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

The first two explanations were pretty good. However, I don't necessarily agree with those that followed, so I'm going to add My two cents in on the definitions.

Bottom - A bottom is the receiver of sensations during play. A bottom is the receiver of sensations that the top provides. In relation, very simply within the conjugated verb 'to do', the top is the do-er and the bottom is the do-ee. A bottom is not necessarily a masochist. There is plenty in BDSM that doesn't involve pain. In other words, I can tie someone up without hurting them. That makes them a bottom in a bondage scene.

I see you're stuck on semantics. I didn't mean serve as a servant. I used "serve" as in:

To have definite use: This cup will serve as a sugar bowl.

Or, to render assistance; be of use; help.

(http://dictionary.reference.com)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsHValentine

Bottoms do not serve; instead, they are served by the Top Dominant who enjoys giving pleasure to the Bottom.

< Message edited by MsHValentine -- 1/7/2010 4:23:25 PM >

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 12

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 4:33:10 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

My qualm actually wasn't with the word serve. My issue was with the insinuation that bottom can be interchanged with the word masochist. In My experience, it is simply not correct.

What you are referring to, I believe, is what is aptly called a service top. That is someone who provides the sensations that the bottom has specifically requested or designed. A service top may or may not have any level of control during a scene. In fact, I'm very familiar with some folks who have their submissive top them in a service capacity.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MsHValentine)

Post #: 13

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 4:50:37 PM

MsHValentine

Posts: 80
Joined: 1/6/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

My qualm actually wasn't with the word serve. My issue was with the insinuation that bottom can be interchanged with the word masochist. In My experience, it is simply not correct.

Pardon me? I don't see where I even mentioned masochist in my previous post. Could you explain your line of reasoning?

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 14

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 5:03:30 PM

ElanSubdued

Posts: 1511
Status: offline

curls84,

LadyAngelika, Andalusite, LadyDelilahDeb, MsHValentine, and LadyPact gave you definitions with the caveat that these are personal and vary. To a large extent, I agree with the definitions given. Possibly, Lady Pact's definitions come closest to my own, but that's splitting hairs. :-) I'll add a few ideas and thoughts.

For the longest time I thought of the "top/bottom" pairing as a synonym for "sadist/masochist". However, there are tops who are not sadists and bottoms who are not masochists. (Example: rope tops may or may not enjoy giving pain and similarly their bottoms may or may not enjoy receiving pain.) Using Domin8tingUrDrmz's definitions, but shortening, I'll summarize as follows:

Bottom: person receiving in an activity.
Top: person doling out/controlling an activity

The bottom and the top partners could be submissives, dominants, a combination of dominant and submissive, switches, sadists, masochists, a combination of sadist and masochist, neither dominant/submissive nor sadist/masochist, daddy and little girl, etc.

The topic of whether a given act (and the like: position, article of clothing, etc.) indicates dominance, submission, sadism, or masochism comes up quite frequently. My rule of thumb is: without talking to the partners and gaining an understanding of their psychological dynamics and motivations, it's impossible to discern preferences and roles from acts. It's quite possible, for example, that the receiver of needles in a needleplay scene may be the owner and the one giving the needles is the owned pet/slave. There's no way to tell based on the acts alone. It's tempting to conclude that the owner in this scenario is at least somewhat masochistic and the pet somewhat a sadistic. Again, there are many instances in which this conclusion would be entirely incorrect.

As far as roles go, I've seen scales that look something like this:

bottom --> submissive --> slave/pet
top --> dominant --> owner

Personally, I think a more useful model involves considering attributes buried inside the BDSM acronym rather than taking a role-based, scalar approach. Something like this:

Degree of interest in:
- Bondage
- Bottoming (desire to receive play)
- Discipline (protocols, structures, predefined consequences)
- Dominance (leadership inclinations, desire to make decisions and take control)
- Masochism
- Roleplay
- Sadism
- Submission (executive assistant/service inclinations, desire to follow)
- Topping (desire to give play)

Yes, this doesn't leave one with a single, compact label (like "submissive"), but it's a much more meaningful way to consider the complex desires and dynamics that are often involved in BDSM relationships. If I had to describe myself using these attributes, I'd say submission and masochism play strongly in my psyche, but so do aspects of the others... not as strongly, but they are there. The dynamics I share with a partner are a symbiosis of the chemistry and mental connection I share with that person. I think it's fine to use broad, singular labels as a starting point. For example, someone primarily interested in being on the receiving end of play, but not in power exchange (i.e. dominance and submission) might call themselves a "bottom". This helps when identifying general areas of interest and compatibility. That's all labels are though - a starting point. It's unlikely a singular label could adequately describe any person's motivations and desires and this is where labels end and human-to-human communication becomes fundamental.

Elan.

(in reply to curls84)

Post #: 15

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 5:18:11 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsHValentine

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

My qualm actually wasn't with the word serve. My issue was with the insinuation that bottom can be interchanged with the word masochist. In My experience, it is simply not correct.

Pardon me? I don't see where I even mentioned masochist in my previous post. Could you explain your line of reasoning?

I'll be happy to explain what I think is causing your confusion.

Unless you specifically hit the 'quote' or 'reply' feature to a particular post, whatever you add to a thread will specify as 'in reply to' whoever it was that posted last. It works on a time line for any addition. Your post was the last one in the series at the time when I posted My comments. While they weren't specifically in reply to you, the board is designed to automatically say 'in reply to' whoever posted last on the topic within that time.

For example, had I not quoted you directly, My comment that I am writing now (if no one else posts in the meantime) would say "in reply to ElanSubdubed" because of him being the last person to have posted on the topic.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Post #: 16

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 5:22:51 PM

MsHValentine

Posts: 80
Joined: 1/6/2010
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Then, who were you replying to?

< Message edited by MsHValentine -- 1/7/2010 5:32:02 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 5:26:41 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

The original question, as well as some of the content within the thread.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MsHValentine)

Post #: 18

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 5:40:40 PM

MsHValentine

Posts: 80
Joined: 1/6/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

My qualm actually wasn't with the word serve. My issue was with the insinuation that bottom can be interchanged with the word masochist. In My experience, it is simply not correct.

What you are referring to, I believe, is what is aptly called a service top. That is someone who provides the sensations that the bottom has specifically requested or designed. A service top may or may not have any level of control during a scene. In fact, I'm very familiar with some folks who have their submissive top them in a service capacity.

I see now. Your post 13 (above) was addressed to me in the first sentence, but the second sentence which talked about the word "masochist" was supposed to be addressed to someone other than me.

That's why I was confused as to why you said I was insinuating something about a masochist when the reality is I hadn't even mentioned the "masochist" .

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 19

RE: Bottom or sub or slave - 1/7/2010 6:00:35 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Perhaps now that the side issue is cleared up, we can return to the discussion of the original.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MsHValentine)

Post #: 20

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