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RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/23/2006 3:06:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You know kinda like driving without a license. They can make you a pedesterian but they cannot confiscate your car.

No the government can only sieze that property that was purchased with the drug money. Not property that was purchased with non drug money.

Apply the asset forfeiture laws to the employers of illegal aliens.

Would'nt your logic approve of the government confiscation of your car for being illegally parked.

thompson

First, i agree with you entirely that the problem needs to be attacked at the source..the employer. The employer should pay the heaviest penalty and in that i am full agreement with you.

However, property can be siezed from a drug dealer because it is assumed it was purchased with by the illegal activity and it doesn't matter that the house was purchased with the money from some legal activity. i could be wrong, please provide me with the statute on that one.

i DO know i can have my car impounded (siezed) if i park illegally. i have never had this happen but the signs are posted everywhere. i know i can have my car impounded if i get caught driving drunk, again, i have never had this happen to be personally but i know it happens.

As far as bail goes? Bail is routinely denied to anyone who poses a flight risk. Not everybody is entitled to bail resonable or not. Are you saying every time bail is denied in court it is unconstitutional? Wow. i didn't know that.

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RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/24/2006 9:06:58 PM

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Medi-Cal pays for over 100000 births by undocumented women
Such births and related expenses account for more than $400 million of the nearly $1 billion that the program spends annually on health care for illegal immigrants in California

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/24/2006 11:21:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack45

Medi-Cal pays for over 100000 births by undocumented women
Such births and related expenses account for more than $400 million of the nearly $1 billion that the program spends annually on health care for illegal immigrants in California

Jack45:
It apperas that illegal aliens constitute 40% of the poverty stricken while citizens represent 60% of the povety stricken. How strange.
thompson

(in reply to Jack45)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/24/2006 11:56:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You know kinda like driving without a license. They can make you a pedesterian but they cannot confiscate your car.

No the government can only sieze that property that was purchased with the drug money. Not property that was purchased with non drug money.

Apply the asset forfeiture laws to the employers of illegal aliens.

Would'nt your logic approve of the government confiscation of your car for being illegally parked.

thompson

First, i agree with you entirely that the problem needs to be attacked at the source..the employer. The employer should pay the heaviest penalty and in that i am full agreement with you.
Pay a penality LOL...confiscate his factory, his home, his bank account. anything that can be tied to his illegal enterprise just like drug dealers.

However, property can be siezed from a drug dealer because it is assumed it was purchased with by the illegal activity and it doesn't matter that the house was purchased with the money from some legal activity. i could be wrong, please provide me with the statute on that one.
One might look at article 1 of the 14th ammendment to the constitution of the United States. "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property except by due process of law." No they cannot take the home that you paid for with legal money. Just the Ferrari that you got from selling moonshine.

i DO know i can have my car impounded (siezed) if i park illegally. i have never had this happen but the signs are posted everywhere. i know i can have my car impounded if i get caught driving drunk, again, i have never had this happen to be personally but i know it happens.
Impounded means you can have your car back after you pay the tow charges and the storage fees...siezed means they take your car and auction it off and keep the money.

As far as bail goes? Bail is routinely denied to anyone who poses a flight risk. Not everybody is entitled to bail resonable or not. Are you saying every time bail is denied in court it is unconstitutional? Wow. i didn't know that.
No, I am saying that bail is guaranteed by the constitution. The exceptions are limited and if applicable should apply. Bail is routinely denied in felony cases where the subject may flee the jurisdiction. If the illegal alien is going to flee back to his or her home country does that not remove the financial burden of the court processes and deportion. If the individual makes bail why would they skip bail. Bail is typically set at five to ten thousand dollars. That is a lot of money to someone who works for minimum wage.
Then of course there is the case of over one million U.S. citizens of hispanic ethnicity who were illegally deported in the thirties just because they were not white.
thompson

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/25/2006 1:22:45 AM

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Being the descendent of Jewish garment workers fleeing pogroms, who nobody, including the Jewish guys who got here a few years earlier wanted around, I find it ironic that nothing in this issue ever changes except the players. Know-nothingism is alive and well. Unless you're Choctaw or something, your folks probably committed illegal acts to get here. And it probably took a couple of generations por hablar Ingles.

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/25/2006 4:27:12 AM

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Oh gawd, you are just not getting it. The figures showed that such births and related expenses account for more than $400 million of the nearly $1 billion that the program spends annually on health care for illegal immigrants. It was not comparing health care for US citizens v health care for illegals.

Do you really believe that in an era where we raise the cost of Medicare to the elderly citizens, raise the medicare deductibles to elderly citizens, that we can really afford to pay for the health care of non-citizens? In an ear where US manufacturers lay off 40k workers who get new jobs at minimum wage, take two20-hour jobs, (where the employer gets to deny health insurance) just to scrape by. Where do you live where all citizens are rich and none struggle every single day? Where none of the elderly citizens have to decide to take their medicine or eat? What message does that give to all the people who come here legally and play by the rules? Are you aware that a study done by the Internal Revenue Service predicts that in 13 years there will be 4 Medicare recipients for every one tax-payer? Where will the money come from to pay for our own health care when we become elderly? How much healthcare costs would go down if we did not pay for the health care of anyone who breaks into the country illegally. That's the point. The United States CITIZENS cannot afford to absorb these costs.

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RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/25/2006 11:11:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Oh gawd, you are just not getting it. The figures showed that such births and related expenses account for more than $400 million of the nearly $1 billion that the program spends annually on health care for illegal immigrants. It was not comparing health care for US citizens v health care for illegals.
Perhaps you might want to go back and reread the article because it does exactly that...It states that out of a one billion dollar subsidy for the poor fourty percent were illegal aliens and sixty percent were poor citizens.
Do you really believe that in an era where we raise the cost of Medicare to the elderly citizens, raise the medicare deductibles to elderly citizens, that we can really afford to pay for the health care of non-citizens?
The fees that are charged are per individual treatment. If there were no illegal alliens in this country the fee would still go up because doctors who perform them want more money for their services.

In an ear where US manufacturers lay off 40k workers who get new jobs at minimum wage, take two20-hour jobs, (where the employer gets to deny health insurance) just to scrape by.
You appear to be saying that it is the illegal alien who causes the manufacturer to lay of forty thousand workers and so forth....tell me that you do not believe this please.

Where do you live where all citizens are rich and none struggle every single day? Where none of the elderly citizens have to decide to take their medicine or eat? What message does that give to all the people who come here legally and play by the rules?
Again you seem be blaming the illegal alien for the crimes of the illegal employer.

Are you aware that a study done by the Internal Revenue Service predicts that in 13 years there will be 4 Medicare recipients for every one tax-payer? Where will the money come from to pay for our own health care when we become elderly?
Are you trying to make a case for national health care?
As for my health care, I exterminated a whole bunch of people in return for lifetime health care a university education and preferential treatment in applying for a government job....this does not make me less understanding of those whom I did not exterminate.

How much healthcare costs would go down if we did not pay for the health care of anyone who breaks into the country illegally.
As I mentioned above the cost of health care will not go down if all the illegal alliens left yesterday.
thompson

That's the point. The United States CITIZENS cannot afford to absorb these costs.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 12/25/2006 11:16:47 AM >

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/25/2006 12:56:50 PM

agirl

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Your post made me think that I'd actually like to really KNOW what it's like to be an *illegal* immigrant. What would I be prepared to try, to hopefully give my children a chance to have a better life? I can be as pragmatic as the next person until I apply it to myself and my children and grandchildren.

From my comfy seat in the UK, being articulate and having a fair quota of *rights*, it's actually quite difficult to imagine how it might REALLY feel not to have these things.

agirl

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/25/2006 1:25:25 PM

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Ok, I am new at this on this site and I will admit, I did not read all of the replies to the original post. I wanted to reply simply because the subject of illegal immigrants hits very close to home.
We live in a small town located on the Mexican border and we see illegals every day. I had a lot of problems with the protests that were staged a few months ago. They appeared to be coordinated and staged by a number of citizen advovate groups that do a good deal of work down here. There goal is simple. They want amnesty for all Mexicans that are in the U.S. illegally. At firts the protesters were saying "Viva, Mexico" until it was pointed out that was causing people to dislike their cause. Then it was changed to "Viva. America". This was primarily pointed out and changed by the latino radio station in Los Angeles. ( I don't recall their call letters)
As for the reason Mexican cross the borders illegally, it is simple, for a living. Our president and congressmen say it is to do jobs no one else will do. Parly true because the minimum wage is so low. If that were raised many Americans would do those jobs. I saw a number of people on the news showing how their crops were rotting in the fields because they couldn't find anyone to pick their crops this year because the illegals were afraid. I kept thinking it was those very people looking for sympathy that needed to be arrested. They are the ones hiring the illegals.
When I first came here, I was very ambivalent about the illegals. To me, if people were crossing the border in these numbers anywhere else in the world, the U.S. would be pouring tons of money in, sending relief and calling them refugees. Since I have been here, I have seen 2 hospitals close due directly to serving illegals and 2 almost close and have t close down their maternity functions... wards and chilbirth due to insurance cost. It seems when the border patrol takes custody of an illegal that has been injured, the government reimburses the hospital for the cost. The government is something like 3 years behind on payments, so now, normally teh border patrol does not actually take custody of them until they have been treated at a hospital, even though they may transport them.
I have seen people toss their children over the fence and heard of them taking babies into the desert as they cross. People here lose thier children for endangering their children in much less ways.
In my mind, what it comes down to, is simply these people crossing illegally are pawns. They are played politically by the Mexican government, our goverment and several different political action groups. The only real solution is for the U.S. to provide funding and pressure on the Mexican government to do away with the corruption and actually work on making Mexico a place where everyone there can make a living.
Marty

(in reply to agirl)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/25/2006 1:54:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Timespent

To me, if people were crossing the border in these numbers anywhere else in the world, the U.S. would be pouring tons of money in, sending relief and calling them refugees.

Marty, I'm not sure whether or not you're implying the US is some sort of benevolent society that props up the rest of the world. Either way it is worth pointing out that the US is consistently towards the bottom of the pile when it comes to aid given by the average citizen. This is true when you include both state and private aid. As a percentage of Gross National Income the US Government and people do not give as generously as other nations. When you add the fact that a lot of US state aid is home grown grain which acts as a tax cheat then this idea of the comparatively benevolent US people does not stack up.

As an example, take this article about Tsunami aid. Figures are from UN sources.

http://blog.ctrlbreak.co.uk/archives/000346.html

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RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/25/2006 3:33:41 PM

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Hospitals going broke due to immigrants, jobs taken, and let's not forget about crime.
12/15/06 - National Data: NYT Asks "Do Immigrants Make Us Safer?," We Answer! by Edwin S. Rubenstein

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/25/2006 5:23:31 PM

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NorthernGent, I was simply thinking that the mindset of the government, media and general public very likely would be different. Yes, I know the U.S is horrendous at actually giving aid, but they make such a BIG deal out of what little they do, and I think that would probably be the case if this were anywhere else.

Marty

(in reply to Jack45)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/25/2006 5:41:00 PM

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Fair enough, Marty.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/25/2006 8:05:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Racist?" Since when did "Hispanic" become a "Race?"
There are only three (3) Races; Negroid, Mongoloid, Caucasoid.

Well, if anthropology is a correct science, people who were mongoloid in origin crossed the Bering Strait Ice Bridge last ice age and moved down the American continent, gradually diverging from the "mongoloid" race.

Spanish settlers, who were caucasian, subjegated these peoples for hundreds of years, interbreeding extensively with the locals.

So I will throw the question back at you, popeye1250, what "race" are Hispanic people?

Sinergy

p.s. btw, Tarter is a mixture of mayonaise and relish with some spices. Are you thinking of the Tartar people?

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(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/26/2006 4:30:22 AM

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quote:

Do you really believe that in an era where we raise the cost of Medicare to the elderly citizens, raise the medicare deductibles to elderly citizens, that we can really afford to pay for the health care of non-citizens?
The fees that are charged are per individual treatment. If there were no illegal alliens in this country the fee would still go up because doctors who perform them want more money for their services.

The monthly premium for Medicare is $93.50 each month deducted from the recipient's social security check. That is paid regardless of whether services are rendered or not. In addition there is an annual deductible of $131.00 for out-patient services before the Medicare recepient recieves benefits. Then they pay 20% of the Medicare allowed amount. Medicare sets the fees, not the doctor. In addition to that a Medicare recipient pays $992 for each hospital admission up to 90 days. You could look it up on Medicare.gov The fees go up because of what is called "critical access" hospital status and the taxpayers pay up to 75% of all uncollected medical fees. Therefore the costs go up when there is more indigent care not because of doctor or hospital greed. If there were no illegals in this country the over $23 billion in uncollected fees per year would most likely go down considerably. Our senior CITIZENS are paying over $39billion in premiums each year out of their own pockets before they get any treatment, not counting their Part B deductible and cost share per doctor visit.

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 12/26/2006 4:54:55 AM >

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RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/26/2006 6:29:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

Do you really believe that in an era where we raise the cost of Medicare to the elderly citizens, raise the medicare deductibles to elderly citizens, that we can really afford to pay for the health care of non-citizens?
The fees that are charged are per individual treatment. If there were no illegal alliens in this country the fee would still go up because doctors who perform them want more money for their services.

The monthly premium for Medicare is $93.50 each month deducted from the recipient's social security check. That is paid regardless of whether services are rendered or not. In addition there is an annual deductible of $131.00 for out-patient services before the Medicare recepient recieves benefits. Then they pay 20% of the Medicare allowed amount. Medicare sets the fees, not the doctor. In addition to that a Medicare recipient pays $992 for each hospital admission up to 90 days. You could look it up on Medicare.gov The fees go up because of what is called "critical access" hospital status and the taxpayers pay up to 75% of all uncollected medical fees. Therefore the costs go up when there is more indigent care not because of doctor or hospital greed. If there were no illegals in this country the over $23 billion in uncollected fees per year would most likely go down considerably. Our senior CITIZENS are paying over $39billion in premiums each year out of their own pockets before they get any treatment, not counting their Part B deductible and cost share per doctor visit.

eyesopened:
I am not unaware of what the medicare law says.
The phrase hospital and doctor greed is yours and not mine.
My statement about fees going up was in regard to doctors and hospitals who will not accept medicare which subsequently causes medicare to raise the amount they pay for a particular service.
The nature of government, of which I am sure you are well aware, is that once a fee or tax is in place it is seldom if ever rescinded or reduced.
That being said lets revisit the original post of the San Jose Mercury article. Since it is my understanding that it is illegal for the doctor or the hospital to inquire as to the citizenship of thier patients how did the newspaper come up with their numbers?
Next question...since it is a fact that illegal aliens are here how would you deal with the sick among them? Refusing the sick treatment seems a little unchristian at the least and down right ludicrous from a public health point of view.
My thoughts would run along the lines of going after their employer and then sending a bill for any overages to the leader of their country of origin.
I would like to mention that some time ago when I was a tourist in Australia I was involved in a traffic accident and wound up in the hospital. I was not given a bill. When I asked why they looked at me as if I had offered to pay for the air I was breathing. The doctor just slapped me on the back and laughed as he said "you yanks and your god dammed wallets....there is no charge mate". As an outpatient I was subsequently assigned a public health care nurse who changed my dressings on a regular bassis and eventually wound up fucking my brains out (although I doubt that was covered service).
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 12/26/2006 6:42:46 AM >

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/26/2006 7:31:29 AM

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yes, Sir, You are right about everything and i am so sorry i ever tried to express my opinion or provide any facts. *sigh*

i deal directly with Medicare law every day but i guess that doesn't matter. Thank You very much for the exercise in futility.

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 12/26/2006 7:38:00 AM >

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RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/26/2006 7:51:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

yes, Sir, You are right about everything and i am so sorry i ever tried to express my opinion or provide any facts. *sigh*

i deal directly with Medicare law every day but i guess that doesn't matter. Thank You very much for the exercise in futility.

eyesopened:
Please do not be sorry for expressing your opinion or for sharing your facts with us. This is a discussion board and as such you and your opinions are needed here. The fact that you have intimate first hand knowledge of Medicare adds much to the discussion.
There is no need for you to call me Sir. My friends call me thompson.
thompson

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/26/2006 9:23:29 AM

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Illegally in the country, illegally using the resources of the citizens of a country, selective law enforcement. Those debating the amnesty side of the argument never seem to address the issue of the impact and far ranging effect of this illegal activity.

It should be obvious when considering that support for some form of amnesty originates from both political parties that something deeper, not humanitarian or 'good will', is at the core of such agreement. Could it be that keeping businesses in business whose profitability relies on the exploitation of these people is the goal?

Why else would so much effort and angst be spent trying to create new laws when simple enforcement of the laws presently on the books, especially at the employer level, would solve the problem? Yet as soon as we are done with the holiday recess the newly empowered Democratic majority will join with their Republican partners to install a new amnesty program.

As needed when a prime time soap opera finally begins a new season there is need to re-visit where we were when last proposal was made. The amnesty program generating the most support involved a 'fine' for the law breakers and payment of a portion of back taxes. I guess our Representatives thought this would placate the fools they represent.

Again, I don't know if this is actual, an urban legend, or just a good interpretation, but the letter quoted below would be a good template for sending to our representatives should that last program gain any momentum.

quote:

Becoming Illegal (From a Maryland resident to his senator) The Honorable Paul S. Sarbanes Senate Office Building 309 Hart Building Washington DC , 20510 Dear Senator Sarbanes, As a native Marylander and excellent customer of the Internal Revenue Service, I am writing to ask for your assistance. I have contacted the Department of Homeland Security in an effort to determine the process for becoming an illegal alien and they referred me to you. My primary reason for wishing to change my status from U.S. Citizen to illegal alien stem from the bill which was recently passed by the Senate and for which you voted. If my understanding of this bill's provisions is accurate, as an illegal alien who has been in the United States for five years, all I need to do to become a citizen is to pay a $2,000 fine and income taxes for three of the last five years. I know a good deal when I see one and I am anxious to get the process started before everyone figures it out. Simply put, those of us who have been here legally have had to pay taxes every year so I'm excited about the prospect of avoiding two years of taxes in return for paying a $2,000 fine. Is there any way that I can apply to be illegal retroactively? This would yield an excellent result for me and my family because we paid heavy taxes in 2004 and 2005. Additionally, as an illegal alien I could begin using the local emergency room as my primary health care provider. Once I have stopped paying premiums for medical insurance, my accountant figures I could save almost $10,000 a year. Another benefit in gaining illegal status would be that my daughter would receive preferential treatment relative to her law school applications, as well as "in-state" tuition rates for many colleges throughout the United States for my son. Lastly, I understand that illegal status would relieve me of the burden of renewing my driver's license and making those burdensome car insurance premiums. This is very important to me given that I still have college age children driving my car. If you would provide me with an outline of the process to become illegal (retroactively if possible) and copies of the necessary forms, I would be most appreciative. Thank you for your assistance. Your Loyal Constituent,

(in reply to eyesopened)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 12/26/2006 11:43:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Racist?" Since when did "Hispanic" become a "Race?"
There are only three (3) Races; Negroid, Mongoloid, Caucasoid.

Well, if anthropology is a correct science, people who were mongoloid in origin crossed the Bering Strait Ice Bridge last ice age and moved down the American continent, gradually diverging from the "mongoloid" race.

Spanish settlers, who were caucasian, subjegated these peoples for hundreds of years, interbreeding extensively with the locals.

So I will throw the question back at you, popeye1250, what "race" are Hispanic people?

Sinergy

p.s. btw, Tarter is a mixture of mayonaise and relish with some spices. Are you thinking of the Tartar people?

Sinergy, it doesn't matter what someone's race is, if they're in this country illegally they need to leave.
As for "Hispanics" most of the ones I've seen are caucaisions but there are some from the Carribean who are Blacks.
There are also certainly Mongoloids under the umbrella of "Hispanics" too. Do you think those people from S. America or Mexico should be admitted to this country because of something that happened 13,000 years ago?
It's not like they don't currently have a country to live in.
"Hispanic" is a word coined by the U.S. govt to parcel Spanish speaking peoples in one term.
People don't seem to realise that immigration to *any* country is not a "right" and sneaking into *any* country is illegal.
I don't know why our govt. has a problem enforcing our laws.
Anyone in govt. who has a problem in that area needs to look at a career change.
"Tarter" was a typo.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 12/26/2006 11:49:55 AM >

(in reply to Sinergy)

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