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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 4:52:38 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger


Exactly.  This is the key to the whole crisis.  I think a madatory five-year-sentence for the first offense would send a pretty good message.


- The Ranger

PS - What did I tell ya..... a bunch of ''balless'' old men in the Senate
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/immigration


The prisons are too full now, and costly to taxpayers. Adding thousands of illegal immigrants to the system would be majorly fucked up. While I do think we need to significantly tighten up the border, making it a felony for attempting to come to America for a better life is not something I'd like to see.
 
Tighten the border, then come up with a sane way of dealing with the illegals here now.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 4:55:42 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

And what is your position on off-shoring labor and off-shore tax havens? Bring the labor here, pay for it over there - what's the difference to Walmart? Do business here, claim headquarters are on Cayman Islands - pay less in taxes...profit!

These issues are related. Bullshit stuff like paying for an illegal's education and medical bills is a drop in the bucket compared to bigger issues.

You want to alter the face of America? Gut the military budget.


Ummm... You didn't answer the question. This is the problem with this type of issue. While I must admit that I don't understand enough about off-shore tax havens and off-shoring labor this is not what is being discussed. You have your points and I agree that it is all about money and profit.

This issue is just as important and it cannot just be overlooked in favor of something more "pressing." The issue is illegal immigrants.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 5:03:41 PM   
Mercnbeth


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Chaingang,
You post nothing in your post that I disagree. I appreciate your inability to provide a yes/no answer. I'd go further and say if the question was posed as I posed it, it would be impossible to answer by most of the opponents of HB 4437. But I don't know how else to pose it.

I'll take your argument further and say your position supports that biggest issue facing us, is inconstant application of laws. Compounding the problem is how we are being distracted by these issues because as a whole we allow ourselves to be distracted by our "hot button" issues; whether they be abortion or immigration. Look at the distraction of this issue. The protesters were primarily from Mexican ancestry, or South American. There is no such specific attention paid to this group in the proposed bill. Unless we are looking at another case of making some people "more equal" than others as we did when AA/EEO were initiated; the security and immigration laws are addressing immigration from ALL sources. Sure a 'border fence' was in the House Bill, but is not part of the Senate Bill (they approved a "study") but that's only because you can't put a physical fence between the US and say  - Korea.

The reason why most initiatives concerning individual rights are in jeopardy is because we have become a populous refusing to allow individuals to fail.  Providing rights to the individual requires the individual has the right to fail. Are you willing to take that responsibility for yourself? I'm sure you are but many couldn't survive on their own. They put their kids in the back of an open pickup, they don't wear helmets riding motorcycles, they let their kids ride bicycles without lights or a helmet, they smoke anywhere they feel. Track back any of the legislation you point to as contrary to personal freedom and it's origination was most likely because there was a movement to protect someone from "failure".

Instead of taking the path of legislation and political involvement we want "instant result". We fail to demand enforcement of  laws. Our children are allowed to disregard their responsibility to attend school. The people in charge of the students, right up to the Mayor of LA don't correct the problem. In this case the attitude is don't like the law - ignore it. Now people who immigrated here illegally want to do the same thing. Why shouldn't they expect to succeed?

The logic of your anti-corporate position should make you a supporter of tough immigration laws. Citizens of the US, regardless of their origination, would benefit and corporations benefiting from the work of illegal immigrants will be hurt. Your sacrifice, and mine, may be paying $5 for a head of lettuce and grapes going for $10/pound, but if that's the consequence, that's the consequence. We would find out soon the real implications of enforcement.

Appreciate your reply - thanks!

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 5:23:33 PM   
Chaingang


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BTW, I am the first person in my family born in the U.S. My parents immigrated legally. I am Latino.

I still see a way for all boats to rise together, but all the backroom deals that benefit the few are killing it for everyone else. 'Twas always thus...And as you say, the inconstant application of the laws is a problem. And in a completely cynical way - that is a have and have-nots issue.

With some of the discussion about prisons I just wanted to point out how prisons are increasingly privatized and how concerned unions have become about competing with the prison labor and pay-scale provided by the likes of Unicor. More money is being made by someone - anyone ever see the movie "Brubaker"? And here I was about to suggest we use prison labor for our agricultural needs...Ugh!

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/28/2006 12:05:52 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger


Exactly.  This is the key to the whole crisis.  I think a madatory five-year-sentence for the first offense would send a pretty good message.


- The Ranger

PS - What did I tell ya..... a bunch of ''balless'' old men in the Senate
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/immigration


The prisons are too full now, and costly to taxpayers. Adding thousands of illegal immigrants to the system would be majorly fucked up. While I do think we need to significantly tighten up the border, making it a felony for attempting to come to America for a better life is not something I'd like to see.
 
Tighten the border, then come up with a sane way of dealing with the illegals here now.


Level.....

We don't know each other..... so you are not aware that many of my posts have facetious twist to them.  Whole different subject, but if it were up to me, I'd tear down most of these prisons and reimburse the tax payers who paid for them. I agree with you - There's other ways to skin a cat.


 - The Ranger


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/28/2006 12:18:38 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

I did say somewhere that I don't like politics... didn't I?

]Uggg.... Another topic to get me worked up about. God I love these boards!


Well Gauge.....

Look at it this way..... how many times have you read and re-read re-hashed versions of subjects such as ''time wasters'' '' no-limit slaves'' ''rude e-mails'' or ''BDSM and abuse''?  -- At least some of these new political topics are a tad bit more thought provoking


 - The Ranger


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to Gauge)
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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/28/2006 12:56:53 AM   
FangsNfeet


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What I find interesting is that illegal imigration into the USA is a federal matter. Local police and even State Troopers are not allowed to arrest or even detain them untill imigration arrives. If an when an illegal imigrant is pulled over for speeding, the officer can only issue a ticket and can now tow the vehicle if it's not insured. Assuming that the person is an illegal imigrant is just speculation. A phone call can be made to imigration but that's the most that the officer can do.

I find it funny how often packages and ATM machines have forign language to read when so many of our illegal imigrants can't read. On the ATM machines, it always ask first which language I perfer before I continue with my transaction. Another second of time wasted on BS. The queston always read english. How is someone suppose to answer the question to begin with if the ATM machine always starts off in English? Even if you push the Espanol button, all that's left are numbers to push so what's the point?



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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/29/2006 12:09:25 PM   
Mercnbeth


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One can only hope that the last line of the source article quoted is an accurate prediction the future; "So legislate on, you proud and foolish senators — and hasten your political demise."

quote:

National polling data could not be more emphatic — and has been so for decades. Gallup Poll (March 27) finds 80 percent of the public wants the federal government to get tougher on illegal immigration. A Quinnipiac University Poll (March 3) finds 62 percent oppose making it easier for illegals to become citizens (72 percent in that poll don't even want illegals to be permitted to have driver's licenses). Time Magazine's recent poll (Jan. 24-26) found 75 percent favor "major penalties" on employers of illegals, 70 percent believe illegals increase the likelihood of terrorism and 57 percent would use military force at the Mexican-American border.
   An NBC/Wall Street Journal poll (March 10-13) found 59 percent opposing a guest-worker proposal, and 71 percent would more likely vote for a congressional candidate who would tighten immigration controls.
   An IQ Research poll (March 10) found 92 percent saying that securing the U.S. border should be a top priority of the White House and Congress.Yet, according to a National Journal survey of Congress, 73 percent of Republican and 77 percent of Democratic congressmen and senators say they would support guest-worker legislation.
Source: http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060328-102545-2371r.htm 


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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/30/2006 12:06:40 AM   
UtopianRanger


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Very sad. Similar numbers were reflected when polls were taken regarding NAFTA and GAT -- And that's taking into consideration that most people know nothing about either treaty outside of what someone like Bill O'riely tells them while their watching TV.

Just think for a moment what might happen if people sat down and really studied and thought the whole thing through regards long term implications when it comes to lack of border security, free-flow of immigration and a very subversive group of treaties that only benefit a minute segment of the population - They might actually get very scared.

It was funny... because tonight I was watching one of the CNN pundit's interview a few illegal aliens, and one of them told the pundit that one day he might take his job - Such irony!

Maybe its time for Americans to rise up out in the streets and find out where these politicians live and load-up with a bunch eggs and rotten tomatoes like the French!


 - The Ranger


 


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/30/2006 1:48:35 AM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTopHat

The American revolution was illegal, was it fair? Japanese detention camps were legal, were they fair? McArthyism was legal, was it fair? The American constitution is crafted so that people can oppose to laws that they believe are unfair -- that is the essential point to freedom of expression.  If I don't agree with something, be it my governments policy or its laws I can (and as a good citizen should) express my opinion and rally to change it.  You conveniently forget your rhetoric and your history -- is fair more important than legal? is moral more important than legal? Ethical?


Let me start by saying, America is not perfect. No country is perfect. Name one country that has honoured all treaties to which it is a party. Good luck in your search on that.

That being said, you're quite right we have the freedom of speech. We also are permitted as a right to assemble peacefully and to bear arms. There just a slight logic gap in your argument.

Repeat after me: Illegal immigrants are not "The People" enshrined in the United States Constitution.

You who is? Citizens and permenant legal residents. A tourist to our country is not promised those rights. They are however granted due process and other limited "human rights" by statute, treaty and judicial case law. Judges have ruled over and over that foreign vistors do not have a right to assembly. Visas are regularly denied when the purpose of visitation is contrary to current understandings of security. During our early history British and French officials were denied entry during various flaps with those two European powers, for example. This is rooted deeply in the common law system of our country.

Legal visitors can be denied access for the purpose of assembly under our common law, constitional law, federal codified law and case law, even ideally considering the idealistic principles of all such law. It is entirely ethical.

If all this is so, any claim that illegal entrants to our country have any such right to assembly and expression is utterly preposterous. From my admittedly libertarian perspective, they have every justification to exercise those rights in their own sovereign nation. It is a natural and essential set of human rights. However, they have those rights as citizens of their own soverign nation, not as part of ours.

The execess flow of illegal immigrants is a troublesome issue. They depress the bottom level of wages, depressing all wages in the process. Their illegal actions harm the neediest and most vulnerable of our nation: the poor. If you were a poor, relatively uneducated person living in an area with high numbers of illegal immigrants and a high cost of living, how would you feel? If you had to earn minimum wage doing back breaking work instead of two to five dollars an hour more, how would feel? Farm workers up towards my way make more than farm workers in Southern California. It's considerably more expensive to live in Southern California, but the wages are notably lower.

I understand that many immigrants come from a shitty place and a shitty life. I have sympathy for them. However, it's unethical to grant the millions of illegal immigrants any kind of amnesty. It's immoral to make life even harder for the working poor. It's unethical to allow millions of low wage workers to suddenly enter the legal workforce, when we have low wage workers who can barely find work. It's unethical to reward illegal migrants with legal status while keeping honest immigrants waiting on a list. It's immoral to offer gfovernment services and assistance to millions of new enrollees, while leaving the Dust Bowl, Appalachia, the Rust Belt and Upstate New York in such misearbale straights.

Just my two bits.
*meow*

< Message edited by ArtCatDom -- 3/30/2006 1:50:10 AM >

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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/31/2006 10:45:09 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

The excess flow of illegal immigrants is a troublesome issue. They depress the bottom level of wages, depressing all wages in the process. Their illegal actions harm the neediest and most vulnerable of our nation: the poor. If you were a poor, relatively uneducated person living in an area with high numbers of illegal immigrants and a high cost of living, how would you feel? If you had to earn minimum wage doing back breaking work instead of two to five dollars an hour more, how would feel? Farm workers up towards my way make more than farm workers in Southern California. It's considerably more expensive to live in Southern California, but the wages are notably lower.

Precisely why republican representitives stall on the issue - driving down wages is very desireable to business interests, whom republicans represent. It's all very ironic,  there is a conflict of interest here between the goals and policies of the republian party and the xenophobia they foster among their political supporters, the republican rank and file.

In short, immigrant labor keeps the economy afloat - population growth is tied directly to economic growth: production requires labor, and is what is considered a "variable cost", i.e., on can control it to some degree as opposed to "fixed costs", such as lease or ownership of  the physical location where the business is located, utilities, warehousing and shipping costs, etc.

The economic boom of the Ninties was the result of productivity increases due to computerization - this reduced the number of employees firms requred to function, and lowered variable labor costs, while at the same time creating new busines opportunities that simple didn't exist previously - economic growth is primarily the result of infrastructure - infrastructure creates opportunities, i.e., without interstate highway systems, comunications networks, etc., the type and quantity of business opportunities that are even possible would be severely constrained, the lower limit of economic growth, while at the same time, the amount of available labor and its associated costs impose an upper limit on the amount of economic growth possible.

In the late Ninties this upper limit was reached, excessive growth outstripped the number of worker available to fill the new positions being created, what is called a "tight" labor market - the result is greater competition for available workers, and a subsequent rise in compensation levels through the actions of supply and demand.

This condition is inimical to historical republican policy: when variable costs rise, the money has to come from somewhere - either prices must rise, or it has to come from profit margins, executive compensation, stock dividends, etc., neither of which is a desireable option from a business standpoint - raising prices is called inflation, and inflation leads to demand for higher wages, in what is called an "inflationary spiral" and inflation is as bad for creditrs as it is good for debtors.

This is key to understanding republican economic policy: inflation erodes capital by reducing debt - i.e., if the value of the dollar falls, an inflationary dollar, this means that the value of outstanding debt is also falling, as well as the value of capital assets, whether money, real estate, etc.

Good, if you owe money, as money you borrow at higher value can be repaid with money of lesser value, and is basially like a windfall, provided your wages keep pace with the inflation. The generation that was in the process of buying property during the inflationary spiral triggered by the Kennedy tax cuts which culminated in the late seventies, the so called Carter recession, which was actually the result of the fed cutting back on the money supply to get that inflation under control (and it was out of control at that point) - that generation made out like bandits: my parents began buying a house in the early Sixties for about 10K, when thy were making 10K, give or take, between them - by the early Eighties, they were each making in excess of 15 to 20K each, but the house still cost 10K, with monthly payments of around $100, and by the mid Eighties, the house was worth between 60 and 80K

Meanwhile, the bank was only making  $100 a month on a house now worth 70K. An extreme example, but now perhaps you understand why republicans brag about low inflation from tight monetary policy - what they aren't telling you, is that this mostly good only for creditors, while keeping inflation to a slow and steady creep reduces the value of wages without leading to urgent wage demands. For similar reasons, the middle class got minimal tax breaks - the Kennedy tax breaks tiggered the inflationary spiral of the Sixties and Seventies through a sudden increase in demand, "demand pull" inflation, they won't do that again.

In fact, as a historical point, faced with the tight labor market of the late Ninties (a third of High School seniors held full time jobs, a ridiculous metric, indicating the extreme tightness of the market), Alan Greenspan raised interest rates, and triggered a recession, citing inflationary fears, where as in reality, our reliance on imports makes consumer inflation unlikely - wages can rise without causing an excessive rise in consumer prices (CPI) under these conditions.

It's also ironic that tight monetary policy is also the culprit behind the trade deficit to begin with - a strong dollar means that foreign goods are relatively cheaper, while domestic goods pay a monatary penalty on the international market.

It was the strong dollar of the eighties that led to the farm crisis: the strong dollar killed the agricultural export market, while banks foreclosed on farm loans - the result was a windfall for agribusiness who could buy up the foreclosed properties for pennies on the dollar - recently as you may know, agribussiness was rewarded with record breaking (and treaty breaking) subsidies, whereas family farms were denied loan extensions n the Eighties.

What does this all have to do with immigration?

First off, republians prefer slow growth with low inflation over any sort of inflation at all, and they prefer the loosest labor markets possible, a buyers market.

Thus, they will dither about tightening the border on the one hand, and resist amnesty proposals on the other: a steady stream of illegal labor who can be employed at below market prices keep consumer inflation, and hence wage demands under control, whereas amnesty or another such scheme would require busineses that depend on illegal labor (which to be fair, most Amerians don't want to work at, mosty construction and agriculture) to comply to federal and state compensation and labor laws. A mild stream of petty crimes is small price to pay for this cozy situation.

Ideally, amnesty is best idea, anyone refusing to legalize under these conditions would be someone to look at closer, and it wouldn't undermine wages.

Hey, you elected them, you oughta at least know who they actually represent.





< Message edited by Amaros -- 3/31/2006 10:54:59 AM >

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/31/2006 3:03:31 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Someone help me with this please? Confusion is raining in my pragmatic brain.

If you are in the country illegally how can you openly and VERY publicly protest about the consequences of your illegal action becoming more serious? How can the police that are being paid by citizen's taxes, protect versus verify, and if here illegally, collect them and taking them back across the border?


The issue is the criminalization of illegal aliens and the employment thereof. Because this would seriously harm the lives of hardworking people and their families throughout the Americas, they protest. Its a sign of the USA's public health that you see a protest here, for if all those people were rounded up and sent to a GULUG, we'd be living in a semi-fascist police state. Illegal aliens working in the USA trying to support their families back home already live with enough anxiety and fear. Why would you want to compound their situation?

Next, if our laws or lawmaking will drastically affect the lives of a group of people, I'm glad those people can stand up and protest, with or without "legal standing." I don't see their actions as any different from past forms of civil disobedience in the USA (the civil rights movement) or the Colonies protest of British rule before and up to the Revolutionary War.


quote:

How can ANY person, especially the young "unmentionables", grow to respect any law with this example? The people may be immigrants looking for the "American Dream", but the bottom line is they are ILLEGAL immigrants. Amazingly they and their supporters don't argue that fact, they just don't think it's "fair".


Yes, why would anyone want to argue about fairness if they can just deal in legalities. And, how will young children grow to appreciate "laws" when they are unfair?


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/31/2006 4:18:29 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

if all those people were rounded up and sent to a GULUG, we'd be living in a semi-fascist police state. Illegal aliens working in the USA trying to support their families back home already live with enough anxiety and fear. Why would you want to compound their situation?

 
cloudboy,
Because they are here illegally. The law is NOT unfair. It's NOT directed to illegal aliens from Mexico. The law is against illegal aliens from anywhere.

Fair? I have 3 people employed from the Philippines. For the last 5 years they've been trying to get citizenship papers. They are all here legally. They are going through the process. They are here because they followed the rules and are waiting in the LONG line of legal citizenship. Are the Mexicans "MORE" alien, more equal and entitled?

We, as US citizens, are being betrayed by our representatives in the Senate, House, and by the President. They are spending our tax money on protecting people who are not citizens. "Amnesty" is defeat. Just the expectation of amnesty is generating a bigger influx of illegals crossing the border so they can take advantage of the situation. There really is no need for any new law - just enforce the laws that are on the books. Amazingly for people from any other county the laws ARE being enforced. 

As has been already covered, the colonial protest against British rule was because the colonist were taxed as British citizens but NOT given British citizen rights. These people are NOT citizens are breaking the law and are NOT entitled to anything. However they are taking health care, schools, jobs. "Jobs that people don't want?" The jobs aren't just wet nurse nannies and gardeners. How about construction jobs such as dry wall, masons, ceramic tile, plumbers, roofers? These jobs should pay $20/ hour. Here you can drive by Home Depot, pick up a load of wood and a few illegal Mexicans and have a patio built for $200! The person hiring this labor brags about it! As with the illegals they should both receive punishment. Harsher for the employer than the individual who is hired. For him, simply a trip back to his country of origin. The employer jail and/or a HUGH fine. No one is suggesting a gulag - simply a trip back to the homeland. How messed up is Mexico if their "poverty program" is sending their poor to the US to work and send back money to their families in Mexico.

All that said, the issue is also ironic in that the ability to protest is a US "right"; yet instead of "viva USA" we are serenaded by "viva Mexico". Change the venue to Mexico City and reverse the protest and the police wouldn't be escorts, they'd be picking up bodies.

But again the bottom line question - are you in favor of the ongoing exploitation of illegal alien labor, or, by criminalizing both the employee and the illegal, are you interested in stopping the exploitation? Also it's amazing that the protesters what to continue the status quo, continuing their own exploitation. Yes it IS that bad in their county of origin, but it's not the fault of the US government.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/31/2006 10:08:36 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Because they are here illegally. The law is NOT unfair. It's NOT directed to illegal aliens from Mexico. The law is against illegal aliens from anywhere.

Fair? I have 3 people employed from the Philippines. For the last 5 years they've been trying to get citizenship papers. They are all here legally. They are going through the process. They are here because they followed the rules and are waiting in the LONG line of legal citizenship. Are the Mexicans "MORE" alien, more equal and entitled?


In the eyes of the protesters, criminalization of illegal aliens and the employment thereof is unfair, even though such laws can be passed by our nation. So they have the right to protest and no, they don't have the strongest standing to do it.

quote:

We, as US citizens, are being betrayed by our representatives in the Senate, House, and by the President. They are spending our tax money on protecting people who are not citizens. "Amnesty" is defeat. Just the expectation of amnesty is generating a bigger influx of illegals crossing the border so they can take advantage of the situation. There really is no need for any new law - just enforce the laws that are on the books. Amazingly for people from any other county the laws ARE being enforced.


Your view here is rather conclusory and I can't say that I share your nationalist bias here either.

quote:

As has been already covered, the colonial protest against British rule was because the colonist were taxed as British citizens but NOT given British citizen rights. These people are NOT citizens are breaking the law and are NOT entitled to anything. However they are taking health care, schools, jobs. "Jobs that people don't want?" The jobs aren't just wet nurse nannies and gardeners. How about construction jobs such as dry wall, masons, ceramic tile, plumbers, roofers? These jobs should pay $20/ hour. Here you can drive by Home Depot, pick up a load of wood and a few illegal Mexicans and have a patio built for $200! The person hiring this labor brags about it! As with the illegals they should both receive punishment. Harsher for the employer than the individual who is hired. For him, simply a trip back to his country of origin. The employer jail and/or a HUGH fine. No one is suggesting a gulag - simply a trip back to the homeland. How messed up is Mexico if their "poverty program" is sending their poor to the US to work and send back money to their families in Mexico.


At the time of the British American conflict, colonists did not have legal standing to protest British rules and policies. Notwithstanding America's lack of standing in this regard, it conducted terrorist acts and eventually issued the declaration of independence --- stealing England's land and colonies away from the Crown. It was a fight about Americans' abilitity to make a livelihood. These freedom concepts, as the civil rights movement, as the women's rights movement, as the abolishionist movement ---- involved those without legal standing, without jurisdiction, and without rights protesting against existing laws. So, the comparison has some merit, even if its distinguishable.

As for the rest, I cannot say I side with you here at all. The employment of illegal aliens here in the US is probably the best possible foreign aid we can offer here in the Americas and to other parts of the world. Plus, instead of this aid being a tax then a government disbursement, the American money in a very decentralized way is going to industrious people who need very much to support their families back home. Also, the benefits to the USA far exceed the costs that we pay. The criminalization of this labor market is nothing short of a draconian, first world fuck you to our neighbors. I suggest you go rent the film El Norte some day.

quote:

All that said, the issue is also ironic in that the ability to protest is a US "right"; yet instead of "viva USA" we are serenaded by "viva Mexico". Change the venue to Mexico City and reverse the protest and the police wouldn't be escorts, they'd be picking up bodies.

But again the bottom line question - are you in favor of the ongoing exploitation of illegal alien labor, or, by criminalizing both the employee and the illegal, are you interested in stopping the exploitation? Also it's amazing that the protesters what to continue the status quo, continuing their own exploitation. Yes it IS that bad in their county of origin, but it's not the fault of the US government.


Your argument seems insane to me. These folks are not protesting "the ongoing exploitation of illegal alien labor," they are protesting the criminalization of it.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Legally Illegal? - 4/1/2006 7:21:15 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

Your argument seems insane to me. These folks are not protesting "the ongoing exploitation of illegal alien labor," they are protesting the criminalization of it.


They are protesting to, according to their leaders, at least maintain the status quo. Are you arguing they are not exploited under present conditions, used as cheap labor who have no legal recourse? That seems insane to me.

quote:

At the time of the British American conflict, colonists did not have legal standing to protest British rules and policies. Notwithstanding America's lack of standing in this regard, it conducted terrorist acts and eventually issued the declaration of independence


Ignoring the fact that the issue was full British citizen status does not make it go away. If the colonists were defeated they would be in the history books as terrorists. The victor writes the history, ergo they are "patriots".

quote:

Your view here is rather conclusory and I can't say that I share your nationalist bias here either.


Nationalism is not evil. As a citizen of the US under attack I'm nationally biased. It seems you are supporting globalism if you support anyone who whats to live in the US, legal or illegal should be allowed to do so. I do not support globalism, that may be the difference.

quote:

they don't have the strongest standing to do it.


I appreciate that basically you agree with me. Thanks.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Legally Illegal? - 4/3/2006 6:15:02 PM   
kass3


Posts: 35
Joined: 11/2/2005
Status: offline
Ok just to start off I'm not American, I don't live there either. But I know that as soon as I graduate from my degree I would be eligible to work and imigrate to the US in an instant...why? Because I am not desperate to do so because of the opportunities offered inmy own nation, I come from a first world nation (Australia), I am educated (BArts(english/drama) and BTeach,I'll finish it next year) in a profession that is in high demand in the US as it is in most first world nations. I know quite a a number of people who live in in the US as teachers and have been elligible for citizenship for quite a while but choose not to get it, there is no need. If it is so easy for me to gain a residency visa etc to the US (I'm planning on studying there next year and have already been given the guarantee). Who are the people who are not allowed to enter and therefore considered 'illegal'...the ones who cannot get a visa?

In my own nation we have this problem as well, though being an island makes it much harder for people to enter as we have no land border. Instead we have what we call 'boat people' or people who simply disapear after having a visit/holiday here. An example of this is during the Commomweath Games just passed in Melbourne we had two thirds of the team from Sierra Leone disapear.

The issue is that the people who try to enter Australia are usually extremely desperate and what many consider refugees...yes even if they are economic refugees....but our government calls them 'illegal' imigrants (just as you have done) and they get put in detention centres. These centres are basically prisons for people while their status is being processed, the problem with this? It has taken up to 7years for the processing to take place. For children that is inhumane!

As a high school student I corresponded with a young man from Afghanistan who was in a detention centre in Nauru. He was eighteen at the time, fourteen when he arrived. Can you imagine that? a child alone and in prison? Arriving in Australia, fleeing for religious reason (his brother killed for them) and he gets locked up. Eventually my letters just got sent back, no one told me what happened to him but I believe he was sent back to Afghanistan. Is that a fair system?

My mother is a 'legal' imigrant from South Africa, in fact her way was paid  by the Austalian government to come here. Why? She was white, english speaking and has a university entrace certificate. Could a black african get this chance? NO WAY!!! Double standards exist in the whole system, even today.

It makes me feel sick how you speak about these 'illegal' people as if by merely being where they are they deserve to be punished. As if the only option in relation to this issue is locking them up or keeping them out. Have you wondered why they will risk all this to get into your country? If you don't want them in your country then be humane and help them stay in their own nation, offer aid, trade agreements, support their economy with your own much stronger one.

Your nation is supported in a large way by much poorer countries including those of South American, without them your food and other cheaply made product would be more expensive, your oportunites in life would be less accordingly.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by making judgements of your nation that you probably feel are unjust  but I hope I showed you that equal judgements should be given about my own nation. It's easy to say...my nation, my home,  my priorities...but think about this your home is this planet and with that comes responcibilities to it and it's people... quality of life...it's imprtant to improve the quality of life of all people, not just those living within a political border.


< Message edited by kass3 -- 4/3/2006 6:18:59 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Legally Illegal? - 4/3/2006 6:56:20 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

It makes me feel sick how you speak about these 'illegal' people as if by merely being where they are they deserve to be punished. As if the only option in relation to this issue is locking them up or keeping them out. Have you wondered why they will risk all this to get into your country? If you don't want them in your country then be humane and help them stay in their own nation, offer aid, trade agreements, support their economy with your own much stronger one.


This is a cop-out of the worst order. Before we can help anyone, they first need to help themselves.

The best way for us to help these people illicit change in their countries of origin, is force them to stay there in the first place.That means not absorbing them.

It works much the same way when someone is overweight and dejected -- That pain forces change. When faced with tyranny and corruption, the price of a good life does not come without a fierce fight.


 - R

PS - I think I need to hook you up with my friend ''Imtempting'' You two would make a wonderful couple.


< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 4/3/2006 7:35:25 PM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to kass3)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Legally Illegal? - 4/3/2006 7:34:58 PM   
kass3


Posts: 35
Joined: 11/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

This is a cop-out of the worst order. Before we can help anyone, they first need to help themselves.

The best way for us to help these people illicit change in their countries of origin, is force them to stay there in the first place.That means not absorbing them.

It works much the same way when someone is overweight and dejected -- That pain forces change. When faced with tyranny and corruption, the price of a good life does not come without a fierce fight.



quote:



Did you fight for the good life or were you lucky enough to be born to it?

Fight for a good life ha?.... my friend Dariya (who is only 18) is Cambodian...her parent's WALKED into Thailand after the communists fell TWICE! They got rejected the first time and sent back until eventually Australia accepted them. That's fighting for the good life, for a life free from massacre and starvation, two of her aunts were murdered before they escaped. Is it right to not accept them into our nation? Aid their now growing and developing country. The Cambodians must now work hard to overcome their terrible past and first world aid and trade could mean the difference between more refugees (or 'illegal' immigrants) needing to be accepted into our nations or a chance for this nation to grow and succeed.

One very imprortant question...Who benefits from these nations staying poor?

< Message edited by kass3 -- 4/3/2006 7:37:17 PM >

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Legally Illegal? - 4/4/2006 10:02:23 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

It makes me feel sick how you speak about these 'illegal' people as if by merely being where they are they deserve to be punished. As if the only option in relation to this issue is locking them up or keeping them out. Have you wondered why they will risk all this to get into your country? If you don't want them in your country then be humane and help them stay in their own nation, offer aid, trade agreements, support their economy with your own much stronger one.


Interesting that you use the word "punished". Why would being sent back to the country of origin be considered punishment? Current pending laws may call for criminalization of illegal entry, but few see this being realistic. As others have pointed out, where would we put the estimated 12 Million "criminals"? But let's just discuss the status quo; the consequence of being discovered illegally entering or being found in the USA is deportation back to the country of origin. Is that punishment? Is it the responsibility for the USA to deal with the corruption of other counties? Mexico deals with it's poor by exporting them to the USA where they will be exploited. They provide maps, comics, and care packages to help them on their journey. Who is responsible to end those practices? Would you assign world criminal policing to the USA as most of the world has assigned military policing? As a US Citizen I don't want us to do either job. We can't afford it as a country or as individual tax payers. Or are you calling for 'Globalization' which is the clearest path to separate the 'haves' from the 'have nots'?

Meanwhile this is not a simple 'victim-less' crime. You can even remove some of the already disclosed costs, but they bear repeating. Currently 30% of California's prison population is made up of illegal aliens. The LA youth babysitting system a/k/a 'School System' is the worst in the nation, although the per child cost is the highest. The most conservative estimate is 25% of the student population is made up of children of illegal aliens. Forget those facts. Would you consider murder a crime? Not first degree, but, at minimum, manslaughter?

Consider, that due to the lack of payment from any source when an illegal alien needs medical attention there are currently no emergency care facilities in many parts of LA. Which sections of LA do you think have experienced this problem? Correct - the inner city, the poorest most needy areas have little or no emergency care facilities. If a person is in need of care they face a long drive to a facility as a direct result of illegals causing these facilities to close. Dieing on the way to care can be directly attributed to the consequences of the influx of illegal aliens.

It would appear to me this issues should be something both sides of the philosophical fence should agree. First, who benefits? Not just Tyson Foods or the CA growers association, but people like me even if I don't want to or I I don't hire any illegal aliens. I benefit because as long as illegals are here, my lawn gets cut for less, any deck I want to built gets built for less, any tiling, or room addition to my house is built for less; because the workers I hire have to compete with illegals who would do the job for $1/hour as long as I can pay cash. In California, every contractor, every service provider has to consider that fact before submitting a bid. That needs to change!

I'd offer a compromise solution to criminalization for the illegals. I'd have virtually "open borders" if before anyone was to employ an individual they must certify their residence status. Penalty for hiring any illegal would not result in any penalty to the illegal, unless you feel going home is a penalty, but the employer would face prison and a huge fine. Not a fine and maybe prison, but prison first. This policy would solve the problem. Without the opportunity to make $1/hour the tide would turn. Then it would be Mexico's problem regarding what to do with their 12 Million citizens trying to get back over the border; as it should be.

No one, other than those hiring these people are benefiting. The US poor and the shrinking middle class are getting poorer and less middle class because, compared to the situation in their country, our "poor and middle class" are the illegals middle class and rich.

Unfortunately, here in the USA, many are bound by labels. In this case, it isn't a Democratic or Republican issue. What's the difference between Senator Kennedy's solution to the illegals versus President Bush's? NONE. It's a clear example that there is basically no difference in the political parties. It also points to a bigger problem. With no difference there is no option. But the exercise of name calling and finger pointing provides distraction and continues our country down the corrupt path.

People scoffed at the idea of voting "no" in the next election regardless of the party of the person in office, by voting all incumbents out. But what other option is there? Unlike other countries the USA does not have a system in place to call for a national referendum vote of "No Confidence". In lieu of that, voting every existing incumbent out of office is the only way to affect the same result.

Back to your specific question Kass. The people considered "illegal" didn't even consider applying for a visa. They have no work papers, no student papers, no passport. You expressed no desire to emigrate to the USA, but suppose you did. You come here through legal means, worked, paid taxes, and were subject to all the annual reporting and paperwork necessary to maintain your status and were waiting on a 5 year long list for citizenship; should these people arriving here by illegal means jump ahead of you in line? When the protesters on this issue cry; "equality and justice for all!"; in actuality they want the illegal group to be "more equal".

(in reply to kass3)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Legally Illegal? - 4/4/2006 10:43:18 AM   
GreedyEvilBych


Posts: 13
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
" Mexico deals with it's poor by exporting them to the USA where they will be exploited. They provide maps, comics, and care packages to help them on their journey."

Please tell me that you do not seriously believe this??? Would like me to tell you what its REALLY like on their journey to the US? Some are forced to come here by their parents as children....BUT STILL illegal. They are shoved into a van packed with 30 others in the dead of night, driving through the desert with NO lights on, with a man hanging his head out of the window driving 90 miles an hour. They watch young girls be raped by the coyotes, some suffer from heat exhaustion, death, torture, robbery, they pass by the skeletons of otherwise healthy indivuduals who died crossing the desert. And what about the kids? the kids who are illegal and brought to the US when they are 12 yrs old and have no choice...but now they are grown and because they didnt stay in Mexico till they were 18 to get Identification, they basically do not exist? They are STUCK. They are now illegal in 2 countries. They didnt ask to come here. Now they just want to do the right thing, Be legal, work hard, have a family, obey the law, but how do they do that? can you tell me? this happened to my husband. He hardly speaks Spanish at all anymore, we are married, and have 1 child. I am a RN, and we live in a middle class neighborhood...YES we pay taxes...YES we pay for insurance. Where is the exception to the rule? what about these people who suffer. I am so sick of this debate..because its always the debate and opinion of people who have NEVER lived this....When you find someone who was given a care package, a comic and a pat on the back... Id like to meet them.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 40
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