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RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 9:57:38 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
I consider all forms of dysfunctional behaviour as symptoms of mental illness.



You're replacing the nebulous term "mental illness" with an equally nebulous one, "dysfunctional behavior".



As I stated, I want to know where he studied medicine, because PTSD is the brain's way of coping with trauma.. it is not just some nebulous personality trait or some insecurity issue...seriously that is insulting to all the veterans that suffer deeply from this condition which is an anxiety disorder


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:06:24 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I consider all forms of dysfunctional behaviour as symptoms of mental illness.


Where did you do your residency as a psychiatrist?


I am not expressing a professional opinion.

I am expressing my personal opinion.

Do you disagree with it? If so, why?

quote:

quote:

I am addressing your belief that people who leave are "self centered people who can't deal with life".


I never said self centered people can't deal with life... if I had said this you would have directly quoted it, which this shows your propensity to put words into other people's mouths.


Post 31:

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Personally, I do not throw people away because they have problems, life is about learning to overcome and transcend these things, to not get beaten by them, and it shows us who is worthy of our time and attention, and who the self centered people who can't deal with life are.


quote:


juliaoceania:
Get back to the topic at hand... people with depression, bipolar disorder, even schizophrenia, often have long term or life long relationships with friends, family, and loved ones... and your contention that they cannot consent to this is ludicrous in my mind...


You provide no quote because I've said no such thing.

Pg. 1, Post 15:
quote:


Thus I argue that those with disorders/illnesses/dysfunctions should seek help/therapy before considering a bdsm relationship.

This does not preclude the partner from participating in the therapy, helping his or her partner recover/cope with the illness, but does strongly recommend that any decisions regarding bdsm be postponed until the therapy has its desired effect.


Pg. 2, post 30:
quote:


I would not want to hold it against her if it is in the past and was resolved. I would be concerned if there were unresolved issues and would hope she would choose to resolve them. I would encourage her to do so and would help her with that if I could (if nothing else, offering support while encouraging her to work through this with a professional).


Post 34:
quote:


What makes this tragic, at least for me, is that no one should have to go through life unloved. But because so many illnesses affect judgment, it is really important that those who are ill resolve those issues as much as is possible before judging who will be a good choice for them.



_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:09:59 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
As I stated, I want to know where he studied medicine, because PTSD is the brain's way of coping with trauma.. it is not just some nebulous personality trait or some insecurity issue...seriously that is insulting to all the veterans that suffer deeply from this condition which is an anxiety disorder


The result of suffering through a traumatic experience, as I said.


_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:15:25 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
I consider all forms of dysfunctional behaviour as symptoms of mental illness.

You're replacing the nebulous term "mental illness" with an equally nebulous one, "dysfunctional behavior".


I am not replacing one term with another. I am explaining that it is through one's behaviour that I determine their mental health.

_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:22:25 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

I am not expressing a professional opinion.

I am expressing my personal opinion.

Do you disagree with it? If so, why?


I could have an opinion that heart disease is all in the head, it doesn't make my opinion have an iota of merit... lol

I disagree because medical doctors treat PTSD... they are called psychiatrists... and they say this disorder is ORGANIC... They are professionals so I would think that their opinion matters, yours not so much.


quote:

Personally, I do not throw people away because they have problems, life is about learning to overcome and transcend these things, to not get beaten by them, and it shows us who is worthy of our time and attention, and who the self centered people who can't deal with life are.


That statement did not include the entire population of self centered people (which I am admittedly self centered and not ashamed of it). The statements are not mutually exclusive.


quote:

You provide no quote because I've said no such thing.


quote:

I think the question the non-affected person should ask is if he or she is competent to determine whether someone suffering from a certified illness or dysfunction is capable of making decisions regarding domination or submission.

Without a full case history and a sufficient degree of expertise in handling someone with the specific illness in question I rather doubt it.

And yet the consequences for mishandling the illness can be traumatic, for both partners.

Thus I argue that those with disorders/illnesses/dysfunctions should seek help/therapy before considering a bdsm relationship.

This does not preclude the partner from participating in the therapy, helping his or her partner recover/cope with the illness, but does strongly recommend that any decisions regarding bdsm be postponed until the therapy has its desired effect.

Remember that Safe Sane and Consensual requires that both partners be sane, for as long as sanity is in doubt, so too is consent.

Personally, I don't believe it is responsible to involve someone when there is as much doubt as a certifiable dysfunction cr


these are your words are they not? A BDSM relationship includes Ds, which some people naturally have the propensity to engage in (such as with my Daddy and myself)... so by the very essence of their natural inclinations they are unfit to engage in a relationship by what I just quoted..




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:25:36 AM   
CalifChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: afkarr
Approximately only 10-15% of people with an official mental health diagnosis can be classified as severely mentalydisabled,
There is another 20-30% that are moderately functional,
Then there is the remainder- those people are your family, frineds, colleagues, and sometimes yourself.


I would say my personal observations over the past 11 years comes close to this, but I think your numbers might be a bit high in the first category.  I would say the severely disabled would be in the single digits (of course, we are talking about those who have sought treatment... the real numbers may be higher).  And I'm excluding anyone who is in a group home or other facility due to mental impairments - because their lives are managed by others, they would probably be excluded anyway.

There are so many different perceptions (I won't say misperceptions, because I don't want to get into THAT argument) on this thread that it is hard to know where to start. 

In my observations, I can't think of a single person I've run into over the years that has an anxiety disorder or a mood disorder that is unable to function.  There might be an exception or two in the agoraphobia category (and without pulling out the book, I can't remember if phobias are a subset of anxiety disorders, but it doesn't really matter), since that phobia produces anxiety when you leave your home, thus rendering it difficult for you to function in everyday society.  But even agoraphobics can function "normally" if they never have to leave my house.  There was someone in my family that didn't leave the house for roughly 40 years.  Other family members accommodated her illness.  If you went to visit, you would have no idea of her illness, as she functioned (mostly) normally at home.

I can't think of a single OCD patient (and one of our docs specializes in this) whose OCD is so severe that they cannot function due to their rituals.  I'm sure they are out there, of course, but if their OCD is that severe, they probably wouldn't be out meeting people anyway.  Most people find significant relief from their symptoms with medication.

The people that are dangerous, IMO, are the ones unable to feel sympathy, empathy, or compassion for other people.  They are unable to see, or do not care about, what their actions will do to someone else.  Generally these people are referred to as sociopaths. 

One of our docs specializes in autism evaluations.  Sometimes the results of these evaluations show borderline intellectual functioning, mild mental retardation, or moderate mental retardation (intellectual functioning deficits do not automatically manifest in people with autism; many are intellectually gifted).  I'll have to ask her about the question in regards to level of intellect, as a number of these people are in committed relationships, and I find the topic quite interesting.

Cali


_____________________________

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(in reply to afkarr)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:26:36 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
As I stated, I want to know where he studied medicine, because PTSD is the brain's way of coping with trauma.. it is not just some nebulous personality trait or some insecurity issue...seriously that is insulting to all the veterans that suffer deeply from this condition which is an anxiety disorder


The result of suffering through a traumatic experience, as I said.



Dude, a broken bone responds to the experience of being broken... it is a way the brain protects itself from the trauma.... The brain is an organ...brain chemistry is altered, causing the individual to respond to various stimuli in certain ways... it is a self protection mechanism. It has NOTHING to do with self esteem, although having untreated PTSD and not understanding why a person has anxiety and dealing with feeling badly about having phobias is at time a blow to self esteem, just like having acne scarring can cause low self esteem


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:27:12 AM   
Dominasola


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From: Ottawa, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

I am not replacing one term with another. I am explaining that it is through one's behaviour that I determine their mental health.


Except there are many people who are able to appear "normal," yet struggle with some form of mental illness. I was "diagnosed" with Social Anxiety Disorder when I was a teenager, but I was able to control it enough that only my family knew about it.  To the outside world, I just appeared to be really shy and someone who made frequent bathroom breaks, hah.

quote:




Some forms of illness are the result of experiences, such as post-traumatic stress. Low self-esteem fits within this category



So every single teenage girl in the world has mental illness?


_____________________________

I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them.

—Baruch Spinoza

The measure of a man is what he does with power.

—Pittacus

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:37:56 AM   
BLoved


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Joined: 8/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I am not expressing a professional opinion.

I am expressing my personal opinion.

Do you disagree with it? If so, why?


I could have an opinion that heart disease is all in the head, it doesn't make my opinion have an iota of merit... lol

I disagree because medical doctors treat PTSD... they are called psychiatrists... and they say this disorder is ORGANIC... They are professionals so I would think that their opinion matters, yours not so much.


Wikipedia: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
"Posttraumatic stress disorder: (PTSD) is a severe anxiety disorder that can develop after exposure to any event which results in psychological trauma. This event may involve the threat of death to oneself or to someone else, or to one's own or someone else's physical, sexual, or psychological integrity, overwhelming the individual's psychological defenses."

Wikipedia: Psychological Trauma
"Psychological trauma is a type of damage to the psyche that occurs as a result of a traumatic event. When that trauma leads to posttraumatic stress disorder, damage may involve physical changes inside the brain and to brain chemistry, which damage the person's ability to adequately cope with stress."

quote:


these are your words are they not?


Qualified by the quotes I provided from my earlier posts, yes.

It is not the black and white issue you want it to be.

I do not discount the possibility of recovery, but I do not take lightly someone's disability when it comes to questions of bdsm.


_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:42:43 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Nothing you quoted from wiki bolsters your assertions, it only bolsters mine

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:43:07 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Some forms of illness are the result of experiences, such as post-traumatic stress. Low self-esteem fits within this category

So every single teenage girl in the world has mental illness?


I'm not laughing.

Low self-esteem is a serious problem for that group.

Anorexia, bulemia, cutting are all symptoms of self-esteem issues, and then there are the results of abuse ...

_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to Dominasola)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:44:22 AM   
theReclaimer


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If you look hard enough, you'll find most everyone has an extended list of mental disorders, both in and out of BDSM. I'd bet money a majority of people would assume anyone in this lifestyle are disturbed and in need of therapy.

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:44:39 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

It is not the black and white issue you want it to be.


I never made it a black and white issue... you did with the way that you said things in the infinitive..

I never said what people should or shouldn't do in a particular case, YOU DID...




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:48:55 AM   
BLoved


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Nothing you quoted from wiki bolsters your assertions, it only bolsters mine


I will trust the average reader's ability to understand clear english.

_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:50:00 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Nothing you quoted from wiki bolsters your assertions, it only bolsters mine


I will trust the average reader's ability to understand clear english.


What part of that article suggests that PTSD is a self esteem issue?

Edited to quote this from you... where does the wiki article support this claim?

I
quote:

consider all forms of dysfunctional behaviour as symptoms of mental illness.

Some forms of illness have physical causes, such as bi-polar.

Some forms of illness are the result of experiences, such as post-traumatic stress. Low self-esteem fits within this category.


To suggest that people who have chemical problems within the brain are the same as people who suffer from low self esteem shows that you do not understand depression, anxiety disorders, etc... they are based upon changes in the brain...

Not everyone who has a traumatic experience has PTSD, because not everyone will have their brain chemistry change... just like not everyone breaks a bone when they fall... genetic predisposition plays a role in anxiety disorders


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/21/2010 10:57:33 AM >


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 10:59:16 AM   
Dominasola


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Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Ottawa, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

Anorexia, bulemia, cutting are all symptoms of self-esteem issues, and then there are the results of abuse ...


Sure, but they're not mutually exclusive.  Low self-esteem doesn't ALWAYS result in some self-mutilatory behaviour.


_____________________________

I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them.

—Baruch Spinoza

The measure of a man is what he does with power.

—Pittacus

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 11:01:13 AM   
BLoved


Posts: 642
Joined: 8/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Nothing you quoted from wiki bolsters your assertions, it only bolsters mine

I will trust the average reader's ability to understand clear english.

What part of that article suggests that PTSD is a self esteem issue?


Where do you see that in what I said?

Pg.2 post 38
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
I consider all forms of dysfunctional behaviour as symptoms of mental illness.

Some forms of illness have physical causes, such as bi-polar.

Some forms of illness are the result of experiences, such as post-traumatic stress. Low self-esteem fits within this category.


quote:


juliaoceania:
To suggest that people who have chemical problems within the brain are the same as people who suffer from low self esteem shows that you do not understand depression, anxiety disorders, etc... they are based upon changes in the brain...


Changes which are caused by experiences they have had.


_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 11:02:29 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

hanges which are caused by experiences they have had.


Like heart disease is often caused by experiences with junk food, yep


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 11:03:00 AM   
BLoved


Posts: 642
Joined: 8/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Anorexia, bulemia, cutting are all symptoms of self-esteem issues, and then there are the results of abuse ...

Sure, but they're not mutually exclusive.  Low self-esteem doesn't ALWAYS result in some self-mutilatory behaviour.


Low self-esteem itself is a form of mutilation ... mutilation of the spirit.

_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to Dominasola)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/21/2010 11:10:39 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Anorexia, bulemia, cutting are all symptoms of self-esteem issues, and then there are the results of abuse ...

Sure, but they're not mutually exclusive.  Low self-esteem doesn't ALWAYS result in some self-mutilatory behaviour.


Low self-esteem itself is a form of mutilation ... mutilation of the spirit.


I suppose I would like to stay away from these airy fairy ideas of yours when we are speaking about biology of mental disorders and a person's ability to have intimate relationships... which D/s is another form of an intimate relationship, like any other...

You made statements that people shouldn't engage in these relationships if they have a disorder... anxiety disorders are not caused by experiences, PTSD is a type of anxiety disorder that manifests itself in certain ways because a person usually has a familial history of anxiety issues... a person never gets over an anxiety disorder, they can only hope to gain strategies to control the anxiety.. You speak of these things in absolutes...

We are all allowed our personal opinions, which is fine, but you are not allowed to your own facts, opinions can be debated, facts cannot be. Your personal opinion is that people shouldn't do these types of relationships unless they have some criteria of wellness that you have delineated... fine, that is an opinion, but base it on facts....

In some ways I actually agree with you, it isn't an optimal situation, but I cannot say what others should or shouldn't do if it is working for them and adding to their lives... 



< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/21/2010 11:35:42 AM >


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BLoved)
Profile   Post #: 60
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