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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 6:11:50 AM

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While your analogy relating to your relationship with your horse was very appropo regarding the building of trust I'm less in agreement with this:

quote:

Come on people! It's not about what the D or M can 'get' the s to do. Or what extreme things the s will do for the D or M to prove their s-ness. It really isn't.

Maybe it's the way it condenses everyone's dynamic down to a more common denominator. I'm not really entirely sure why it strikes me wrong but it does. Not enough "to each his own" and too much "this is the way you should be doing it" for me, I guess.

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 6:26:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Considering the perspective of the people asking the question; I'd think you'd understand it better if you had an 'on-line horse' instead of a real one.

OK, perhaps I'm just feeling contrarian this morning, but my "horse" is sleeping in the bed 15' away from me right now and pretty much hates online. Even so, I understand the nature of these questions and actually thought I read some really good responses in one of them (thank you agirl for that).

In a generic format, the question can be expressed as, "How flexible are the boundaries of your s-type?" For more mature posters, I might say it as, "How much trust exists between your s and d types?" It is not surprise to me that people are fascinated by the extremes of this. Hell, I am. I'd be willing to guess that pretty much anyone with (what I call) an engineer's mindset will poke at the boundary conditions because they, that's what engineers do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaT
So I sit here and wonder........the people that come up with this stuff......have they EVER had a successful relationship of ANY kind? Do they not understand that, regardless of dominant or submissive, it is about building the relationship, both parties serving the relationship?

Come on people! It's not about what the D or M can 'get' the s to do. Or what extreme things the s will do for the D or M to prove their s-ness. It really isn't.

And again, a bit contrarian... but I think that's really swell of you to tell everyone else what it is about. That really should clear it up in my head now that you've told me what my relationship is "about".

To answer the more legitimate questions you asked, "Yes, I should think being together for 15 years and married for 12 in a generally happy fashion counts as a 'successful relationship' -- at a bare minimum, successful so far. Yes, I agree that it is about "building the relationship"... at least for me it is although I'm loath to define everyone else's reality for them. Those two things, however, conspire to make me MORE interested in... as you so flippantly put it... finding more extreme things.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 6:49:36 AM

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Jeff, I wasn't trying to define anyone else's relationship. Especially not one like yours, that obviously is working fabulously for the two of you. Personally I don't give a rat's ass what is working for other people. I simply find the endless debates of 'what if' funny, is a pathetic way, and so unrealistic.

Your 'what if's are yours, they apply wonderfully to you and yours. They are built entirely on the relationship and trust the two of you have.

If you want to nitpick my words and try to start a circle jerk over them.......you will be masterbating by yourself. I am discussing bigger picture concepts and won't dissect sentences to try and find perceived hidden meanings that have hit one person's sensitive spot. I am not saying that to condescend to be a fathead.......just explaining my initial intent.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 7:10:27 AM

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OK, here's a "bigger picture" meaning for you (and yes, I know you weren't denigrating my relationship)

a) It's not my place or yours to define "what it's about" for anyone... not even in the really big picture. As I've oft noted, what it's about for a lot of people here is pretty alien to me. I choose to take that as a personal learning and growth opportunity. I do my best to understand these alien viewpoints and, perhaps, learn something useful to myself in the process.

b) The postings that you are referring to seem to me to be a legitimate, albeit awkward expressed, exploration of boundary conditions. I asked many similar questions when I was much newer to all this. I ask similar questions of myself and Carol daily although nowadays those questions have a lot more context to them. Many of the boundary conditions that Carol & I are exploring right now are, apparently, ridiculous to an awful lot of people. I do not see the asking of such questions as indicative of any sort of stupidity.

Maybe put even more succinctly, I personally derived significant value from OSF's recent "stripping in the restaurant thread" so I didn't find it "pathetic". Predictably, therefor, I'm here standing up for those threads. So no, I wasn't merely nitpicking words.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 7:27:09 AM

Kana

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If asked to jump off a cliff I would remind them that all successful leaders
1-lead from the front
and
2-lead by example

(in reply to Fitznicely)

RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 7:31:43 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

So, with that in mind, why on earth would a human/human relationship be less so? I would not dream of asking my horse to jump off a cliff......why would I ask a slave to do so?

I pulled out just this little piece -- but I want to say that, in its entirety, this may be one of the best responses to the issue of "what if..." that I've ever encountered, and, though my agreement is neither here nor there, I -do- agree with what LaT brings up here -- profoundly, in terms of how it explains how I view these matters within my relationships!

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 2/26/2010 7:33:14 AM >

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 7:33:27 AM

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Jeff I understand what you are saying and yes I know that my posting style would lead one to think I am trying to think for everyone. That is not the case. Just because I think a person is a moron, does not mean I think they have no right to be a moron. Just as I am certain there is some use for mosquitoes, I am sure there is some viable use for morons.

And yanno, I am really not saying people have no right to ask questions I think are moronic. I am simply giving another point of view on those questions and why some people answer in the ways they do. Just as you have here. You don't agree with me, that's cool, down right awesome in fact.

I don't want everyone to agree with me. If everyone agreed with me, who would I laugh at, make fun of, debate with? Sometimes even learn from.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 8:22:20 AM

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Lovely post OP

nothing to add....was a lovely read.

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 8:32:31 AM

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My Master once introduced me to someone, and as he did so he told them that if he asked me to jump off a bridge I would ask him how high of one. He turned and looked at me in wonder. I was so struck by that moment, to see him looking at me in awe, while I found myself thinking, "is that what you really think of me?". I know that he would never ask me to jump off a bridge, yet knowing that he believed that I would if he told me to made me feel wonderful.

To be honest, I think that a lot of people who ask questions like "would you jump if you were told to" are looking for escape clauses in their own relationships; a way to draw lines, to hold back, and to feel that they have every right to. Get real - if your slave was so well trained that they would go to the point of killing themselves for you wouldn't you really want to hold onto them? Sometimes the questions are more like "would you do anything illegal?". I towed my Master's truck behind mine on city streets which was technically illegal but that's a whole lot different than him asking me to rob a bank.

That was a great story about the horse, especially since you included a part about something going wrong and fear coming back into the picture that had to be dealt with. Even in the most wonderful relationships things are sometimes bound to go wrong and then submissive needs to be reassured and taught trust again. Thank you for the beautiful post.

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 10:24:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

If asked to jump off a cliff I would remind them that all successful leaders
1-lead from the front
and
2-lead by example

Tell that to Saladin.

(in reply to Kana)

RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 10:35:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

In a generic format, the question can be expressed as, "How flexible are the boundaries of your s-type?" For more mature posters, I might say it as, "How much trust exists between your s and d types?" It is not surprise to me that people are fascinated by the extremes of this. Hell, I am. I'd be willing to guess that pretty much anyone with (what I call) an engineer's mindset will poke at the boundary conditions because they, that's what engineers do.

Actually it's because he is an engineer that I know he won't decide something asinine like running an engine without oil, or doing the same in our relationship. He learned the tolerances early and knows better than to cause a machine breakdown by pushing it. Or doing the same to me.

The only thing I'd like to add to La T's original post is that I also own a horse. But he was trained abusively by his first trainer. As a result, there are things no amount of teaching will accomplish. A crop waved in his direction, even at another horse in the arena causes PTSD. Trust in his new owner and trainer still can't cure that. And this applies to people also.

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/26/2010 4:02:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I simply find the endless debates of 'what if' funny, in a pathetic way, and so unrealistic.

That's just a diversion or distraction on the part of the 'everyone has limits' crowd. It ties in to the comment I made in the doormat thread where I said that doormat is a label applied to those who will by those who won't. One submissive won't do X or a dominant is in a relationship with a submissive who won't do X so their response to the submissive and/or dominant in a relationship where X is a reality is "well, what if he told you to gnaw your own arm off?".

It isn't so much about limits as it is about decision making. There have always been people in wiitwd who cannot grasp the concept that there are actually d/s relationships where the dominant makes the decisions. There is an at least equal number who grasp the concept but are chartreuse with envy that they are not part of that group. The result is the ubiquitous 'what if?' comment.

This is not to say that d/s relationships where the submissive retains full line item veto power are not viable relationships. We decide what is viable for us in our own relationships but must avoid trying to apply the same determinations to others' relationships. I'm okay if another dominant has to run every activity he plans past his submissive for pre-approval so long as he doesn't whine because he has to and I don't.

_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: What if?!?!? - 2/27/2010 12:59:44 AM

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I cant add anything to the OP. OP said it all brilliantly.

I could expand a little, if I may, on the initial premis: jumping off a cliff i.e. physical harm.
What about spiritual harm?

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/27/2010 5:05:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Nice horse story. That trust you speak of and unspoken limits . . . who sets the limits, you or the horse? They train circus horses to jump through fire. That is pretty much an instinctual “hard limit” to jump through a wall of fire. So the horse’s trainer set the limits, not the horse. Obviously there must be trust . . . who in their right mind would pledge themselves as a slave to someone they didn’t trust? . . . and about that cliff, there is some real nice shoreline cliff diving on this planet . . . she better jump!

What RS said, there are 3 cliffs that I know of within a half hour drive of me that I would happily (and do, regularly) jump off. And so many more possibilities out there in the world, I guess if you want to revise the image of a cliff in your head significantly downwards then the waterfall picture in my profile could kind of count.

Ok, I know that wasn't the point of the OP at all, but I think other people have said it perfectly already, especially LP.

If someone I was in a relationship with, that I trusted and had been with for a while etc etc told me to jump off a cliff, I would assume that xhe knew me, knew my love of heights and big splashes, and had found a safe cliff with water at the bottom of it. And I'd be bouncing about with excitement.

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/27/2010 6:43:40 AM

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quote:

First of all, I find these sorts of questions asinine. However, I wonder at the mindset that would A.) lead a person to wonder such a thing B.) ask such a thing C.) debate the specific act.

How many parents respond to their progeny's protest “.Jimmy is going to the party!” with “And if Jimmy jumped off a cliff would you jump too?” Rhetorical questions are sometimes helpful to A)make a point and B) make us think about an issue and C) give us the opportunity to see a different perspective; I don't find it asinine at all.

quote:

As I recently commented, that to me, it isn't about the cliff or the potential dangers, repercussions, obedience, etc at all. To ME it is about the trust and dynamic of the relationship.

Overall, I very much appreciate and like your OP. It brought to mind a memory of my young years. We lived on a farm and often played in the barn. We would climb to the rafters and my siblings would jump into the hayloft. I never jumped on my own; I was too afraid. My oldest sister would push me off the rafter. I would scream in fear all the way down, and then climb back up; essentially consenting to be pushed. Did I climb back up there because I trusted my sister or because I was, even then, an endorphin junkie? Hmmmmm, now I gotta think on that for awhile!

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/27/2010 6:47:14 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: afterforever

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Nice horse story. That trust you speak of and unspoken limits . . . who sets the limits, you or the horse? They train circus horses to jump through fire. That is pretty much an instinctual “hard limit” to jump through a wall of fire. So the horse’s trainer set the limits, not the horse. Obviously there must be trust . . . who in their right mind would pledge themselves as a slave to someone they didn’t trust? . . . and about that cliff, there is some real nice shoreline cliff diving on this planet . . . she better jump!

What RS said, there are 3 cliffs that I know of within a half hour drive of me that I would happily (and do, regularly) jump off. And so many more possibilities out there in the world, I guess if you want to revise the image of a cliff in your head significantly downwards then the waterfall picture in my profile could kind of count.

Ok, I know that wasn't the point of the OP at all, but I think other people have said it perfectly already, especially LP.

If someone I was in a relationship with, that I trusted and had been with for a while etc etc told me to jump off a cliff, I would assume that xhe knew me, knew my love of heights and big splashes, and had found a safe cliff with water at the bottom of it. And I'd be bouncing about with excitement.

And just think, if your Dom misjudges you could just stitch yourself back together

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/27/2010 7:00:08 AM

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Good question LaT. The issue I think is close to being moot where reasonable people are concerned. Responsibility comes with control, even when there is no binding emotional or romantic attachment involved. I think most realize that, even those who enjoy, or live for play at the extremities. We exist in a realm of consensual things where we can explore areas like pain and control because both sides of the equation have a need that is equal, yet opposing in that one needs to provide it and one needs to feel it. When and where it works best is when both trust in themselves and in each other enough to be able to ride that edge of need and want. It is what makes the experiences so powerful, so encompassing at a core level. No matter how dominating one may be, that responsibility does not evaporate with the willingness of any given submissive. And I think that one trait characterizes, as much as I hate to say it, denotes true dominance more than anything else.

That doesn't mean a dominant who asks his submissive to jump from a cliff is anything less. It does mean that a dominant who does so with no concern to the safety of his or her submissive is less in my eyes. It isn't a question of dominance at that point for me. It is a question of idiocy, on both sides. It is the kind of scenario that leads to sensationalistic headlines, the kind we've all seen, the kind that cast doubts on the intelligence level of anyone who would partake in aspects of this type of lifestyle.

There is always a point of calculated risk in the things we do. As practiced as I may be, I am not perfect. I accept that as a dominant. I also accept my responsibility in it. It is why I say the point is basically moot among reasonable people. Whether we do so as part of an on-going relationship, or play at clubs, we know that being able to maintain the trust of our partners lies both on our ability to ride those edges, while allowing them to emerge not just intact at the other end, but having gotten something they needed to get from the experience. It is not so much an issue of control really, but one of harmony, even if that harmony comes from the total subjugation of another.

It is those who don't consider the risk nor accept the responsibility to whom this question should be addressed, but who will most likely not appear here. I've known dominants who left strings of broken submissives in their wake and thought it their right as a dominant to do so. The issue I most often have however, is not with their perceived right, but the whining that comes with not being able to maintain a relationship, even the stability of one with casual play partners.

I also have no compassion for those stupid enough to end up with blue lights flashing in the yard and the looming image of a judge to whom said dominant will have to explain his or her rights.

Reasonable people doesn't mean those who avoid extremes of pain or control. It means those who understand they have an obligation to someone other than themselves.

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RE: What if?!?!? - 2/27/2010 7:21:46 AM

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StrangerThan, thank you for adding a new word to the discussion. Harmony. Probably not a word that some people would think to use in a discussion on a BDSM board. But it is a quality that I think many of us strive to have in our relationships and homes. Balance and harmony. Crazy as I am, I feel responsible for maintaining the balance and harmony in my life, myself, my relationships, household. Also, crazy as I am, I think that even the edgiest fun I can have, can also be had in a balanced and harmonious relationship.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to StrangerThan)

RE: What if?!?!? - 2/27/2010 9:07:22 AM

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I have to agree on the decision making, but from a different perspective.
As a sub I have placed a limit on myself. I avoid idiots. By choosing carefully I have avoided many of the "what if's" When he is part of my life he can make all the decisions and I am more than happy to comply even though I don't always see the reason. But because I am pretty comfy in my own decision making I know that I wouldn't be with that guy if I thought he was an idiot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus
It isn't so much about limits as it is about decision making. There have always been people in wiitwd who cannot grasp the concept that there are actually d/s relationships where the dominant makes the decisions.

(in reply to DomImus)

RE: What if?!?!? - 2/28/2010 1:34:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

I once had a sub/horse with a hard limit of watersports/ditches. He was in a very trustful space, being led carefully and quietly, so I took him to the bathroom/covered mudhole and started to piss/walk across the mudhole. I had him put his finger in the stream/walk out over what looked like dry land. I had him taste his finger/walk a little further.

His body language told me how hard a limit I had encountered. Fortunately, I was able to talk over the incident and he explained why it was such a hard limit. I'll never go there ever again and he trusts me to not do so. It turned out that my badly-conceived experiment (to see if this newbie knew what a "hard limit" was) became a trust-building experience that ended well. I was/am a very lucky Dom, who later realized that I had been playing with fire.

When "we" see those "What if ?!?!" original posts, I think the answer should ALWAYS be a link to JUST the OPost of this thread. LOL!

This is a really good analogy!

But a part of me did wonder how big your bathroom must be to get a submissive horse into it ;-)

(in reply to LanceHughes)

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