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bottom vs. sub - 3/20/2010 11:40:50 PM

doormat1975

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Hope I don't get spanked for this :)

I am a sub with a fair deal of experience off and on during the years and truly have loved serving the Dommes I have had relationships with. I am comfortable in knowing that it is truly in my nature to want to please a Domme in every way she desires (within respected limits of course).

I haven't ever lived the lifestyle 24/7 and the Dommes I have been with in the past were always ok with that... That being said, I am always a gentleman of course.

My dilemna is that I have fetishes of my own of course, things that turn on me and can also go very well in the sub context. Dommes I've been with have never had problems in the past with "rewarding" or incorporating these into play and of course doing this would always be an easy way for them to manipulate me for other things :) ...

but do these "rewards" amount to my being a Bottom rather than a sub? If not (which is what I think) how do I convince or explain this, since I am uncollared at present?

Sincerely,

d

< Message edited by doormat1975 -- 3/21/2010 12:07:01 AM >

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 12:17:00 AM

LadyAngelika

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Well hello stranger ;-)

There are really no official definitions though I think there are some that will resemble one another. These are my definitions and I expect someone to disagree with me.

slave - someone who gives up everything to someone, lives in a life of servitude and relinquishes the right to make decisions / goes with Owner, Mistress or Master

submissive - someone who submits actively to someone while keeping a certain degree of independance and autonomy / goes with Domme, FemDom, Domina, Dominant, Dom (not Dominate! LOL)

bottom - for me this is an S&M term more than a D/s term, indicating the one on the receiving end of play / goes with Top

For example, I am a Dominant but I don't really do the Mistress thing (unless isolated in play). I am also a Top and have been known now and then to be a bottom. I have no desire to submit.

What is most important is knowing what you want and being able to communicate that to others. If you are just into playing the submissive for sexual fun, then you are more than likely a bottom. If you feel the need to submit to a woman, then there is a chance that you might be submissive.

Wanting the rewards per say doesn't make you a bottom as opposed to a submissive. It is your desire to serve a woman that makes your a submissive and putting her needs and desires first and her happiness is your reward.

Hope that begins to clear things up for you. You'll get more responses, I'm sure.

- LA

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 6:37:41 AM

Rochsub2009

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i agree with what Lady Angelika said. But i'd like to add one additional thought.

i identify as a sub, not as a slave or bottom. Having said that, i must say that in my opinion, a sub does not necessarily eliminate his own interests and desires. He simply subordinates them to the interests and desires of his Domme.

A good Domme understands this, and takes interest in the sub's needs as well as Her own. She realizes that a relationship (even a D/s relationship) is a two-way street. Both parties have to be satisfied, or the relationship is not going to work. If your fantasies are in line with Her own, She may decide to incorporate some of them into Y/your play. On the other hand, those fantasies that you have that are not aligned with Her own interests will probably never happen.

Having needs and desires of your own doesn't necessarily make you a "bottom". It simply makes you human.

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 7:11:37 AM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

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I agree with most of what Lady A and Rochsub have said. Having desires of your own does not make you a bottom. Pushing to have only your desires met, and not actually submitting to your Domme's desires would make you a bottom.

While I'm looking for one that I will call slave, I still expect him to have some desires of his own, and if they don't cross my own limits, I will likely reward him with some of his desires.

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 7:20:53 AM

MsStarlett

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I believe that some people occasionally get a touch obsessive about slapping labels on people. While we need some labels to help guide us in our search, those words need to be flexible and redefined for each individual relationship. I often ask subs "How do you define that word?" And do not forget that those labels can change in time for each person and their situation.

For me, the difference between being a Dom/Top and sub/bottom is the act of submission. Technically, the Top administers a stimulus and the bottom receives it. I have a friend who is masochistic, but I would never call him a sub. I even enjoy a few painful activities that would normally be considered "for bottoms only". However, I only engage in those activities with my husband and my ex-best boy. At no time have I ever let go of the reins when I am, technically, bottoming. I simply instruct my most trusted partner to please me in a different way.

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 8:55:55 AM

Miyani

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Honestly? Say exactly what you just said. You have your own fetishes (as just about everyone does), and you enjoy it when they're used as a reward, or used in play, BUT your main focus is on serving and pleasing a Domme, and (I think) you don't see it as a quid pro quo scenario, you just hope for a relationship that incorporates both because it's what you both want.

Liking certain types of play or sex doesn't make you a bottom. It makes you a human, with the base biological needs we all have. But your wish to subsume those needs in service of a Dominant, that does make you a sub.

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 10:37:58 AM

LadyPact

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Having activities that you actually enjoy doesn't make you a bottom in My book. It just means that you have some things that you like during play time. In My opinion, that's a good thing. I don't think I've ever met anyone who looked at everything involved in wiitwd and said it was all the same to them, with no preferences at all. Sure, it's up to the Dominant in question to decide when you get them, but it doesn't make you a bottom, rather than a submissive just because you like them. The key is finding someone who enjoys them as well. That's a win-win to Me.

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 1:58:40 PM

doormat1975

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I would like to thank everyone for providing their thoughtful insights. I find we all share consensus on this which is really great. My existential dilemna has now subsided; some pun in that last word :)

Many thanks again!

< Message edited by doormat1975 -- 3/21/2010 2:10:03 PM >

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 3:20:35 PM

DWCskitten

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Well hello stranger ;-)

There are really no official definitions though I think there are some that will resemble one another. These are my definitions and I expect someone to disagree with me.

slave - someone who gives up everything to someone, lives in a life of servitude and relinquishes the right to make decisions / goes with Owner, Mistress or Master

submissive - someone who submits actively to someone while keeping a certain degree of independance and autonomy / goes with Domme, FemDom, Domina, Dominant, Dom (not Dominate! LOL)

bottom - for me this is an S&M term more than a D/s term, indicating the one on the receiving end of play / goes with Top

For example, I am a Dominant but I don't really do the Mistress thing (unless isolated in play). I am also a Top and have been known now and then to be a bottom. I have no desire to submit.

What is most important is knowing what you want and being able to communicate that to others. If you are just into playing the submissive for sexual fun, then you are more than likely a bottom. If you feel the need to submit to a woman, then there is a chance that you might be submissive.

Wanting the rewards per say doesn't make you a bottom as opposed to a submissive. It is your desire to serve a woman that makes your a submissive and putting her needs and desires first and her happiness is your reward.

Hope that begins to clear things up for you. You'll get more responses, I'm sure.

- LA

Thank You, LA, this is really good. i kind of thought this, but wanted to hear it from Someone Else too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doormat1975
do these "rewards" amount to my being a Bottom rather than a sub?

i don't think using your "loves" necessarily makes you a bottom. Even though i'm Master Sir's slave, He uses my extra-special loves for extra-special rewards (i never know when they're coming). i think if you're driven to have those loves filled rather than by your Dominant's desires, that would make you a bottom, but there's nothing wrong with wanting those itches scratched now and then.

~kitten~

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 4:01:37 PM

LadyAngelika

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Hi kitten, congrats on the new incarnation ;-)

I think what you write about your "loves" is perfect. And he likes theses things as much as you do, then it is likely to be fun for all.

What I am going to presume happens, especially with submissive men who have not had a well-established relationship with a Dominant woman is that they don't get to experience how the dynamics play themselves out and how everyone gets their kink met. They don't get the reassurance that not to worry, if you are with the right Domme for you, you will get your fantasies fulfilled as well, mind you on her terms.

The problem is that many Dommes are approached by many new boys or boys who've had experimentation and play but very little D/s relationship experience. Many Dommes' reaction to this is to have a tendency to want to explore the boy's desire for submission before hearing about their kink: it is a form of triage. The discussion about the boy's kink will come along, but he has to realize that the more he pushes to discuss it in the beginning, the more aggravating it becomes to the Domme.

This might leave some boys who have this inner desire to serve but not know how to go about it with the impression that their kink is being overlooked, denied, etc, whereas it often is just a case of them being overly forward and aggressive about it to the point that they turned a Domme off and gave her the impression he was a troll.

The last thing a woman wants to feel is that she's going to be a life support system for a man's kink. She wants to feel that he's devoted to her and her pleasure first and foremost. And once she feels that, he might be pleasantly surprised what she is willing to explore with him.

- LA

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 4:18:44 PM

LadyPact

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I have a feeling that this is going to turn into a very good reference thread for future use.

We're absolutely in sync today, LadyA. I agree with the above. One thing that might be helpful is, when folks new to all of this are starting out, to use the advice that I give for a lot of things. Even though it's kinky, take the kinky aspect out of it and interact with kinky people the same as you would non. Nobody in their right mind would walk up to somebody they had never met before and start asking intimate details about their sex life or sexual desires. Well, for a lot of people kink is just as intimate as sex, so they may not be exceptionally thrilled when someone comes charging at them kink first. This is where soooooo many new folks make their beginning social blunders. It seems like it should be common sense, but sometimes, it's just not.

(Please understand, OP, that I'm not refering to you with the above comment. Your question was very respectful and didn't have the overtone to it that I was mentioning above. It was simply a remark made toward LadyA's continuance of the discussion.)

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 4:23:09 PM

hopelesslyInvo

Posts: 522
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quote:

how do I convince or explain this

if you didn't have desires, you'd scarcely pass for being human.

you are of course free to inform people what you want in life, but "wanting" isn't "getting" of course.

if you wouldn't be in a relationship unless your fetishes were fulfilled, to many you would just be a do-me sub or a bottom. a bottom to me and many others merely means "in the bedroom" or similarly temporary. i see nothing wrong with that however as someone might take the bottom role without enjoying it, without wanting it, and without expecting anything from it; switches do it all the time.

i could argue from many angles pretty effectively, but my advice is to not try and convince anyone unless you think a particular person is worth explaining it to; just look for someone who already shares or can sympathize with your own feelings.

i don't have any fetishes i need fulfilled in order to be with someone, but there are certain "things" that must be present, things i simply "want" if i'm going to be in a relationship. they are selfish and indulgent, and i will never ask for them, but if they're absent, i will eventually be as well.

look at it this way, if your only desire was to please someone, it would still be 'your' desire, and if this desire wasn't being met, what would be left to hold you them?

you have to determine what is a "blessing" and what is a "requirement" to have in a relationship, then subtract it from what is asked of you, then solve X for worth.

for example,

would i give up/be fine without bondage if i have cuddling? yes.
would i give up cuddling if i had bondage? no.
would i endure corporal (their desires, not mine) in order to continue cuddling with this person? most likely, and maybe enjoy it in a different way due to being sore or tender to touch.

what about you? what are you prepared to give up and not willing to be without? when you figure that out, you can figure out why certain things are important to you.

another example might be how i'm absolutely not willing to treat people badly or hurt them, so if cupid was to put me together with a domme who wanted to bottom from the top and asked me to spank them beyond anything described as extremely mild, i would probably have a huge problem.

does that make me a do-me sub or a bottom simply because i won't play unless it's "my way"?

if it does, i'm past the point of caring. not hurting them is more important to me than what they think of me. even if my interest is purely in making them happy, and even if they want it and would make them happy with me, it pushes a button i cannot bear to have pressed.

you don't list what these fetishes are, and i wasn't inclined to read over your profile to see if i could find them, but in any case, regardless of what they are, i'm certain you can find ways to explain your feelings and mindset over them, such as in the above example.

once you know WHY something is important to you, you shouldn't have any difficulty explaining it.

< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 3/21/2010 4:57:39 PM >

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RE: bottom vs. sub - 3/21/2010 5:10:11 PM

doormat1975

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I have a feeling that this is going to turn into a very good reference thread for future use.

(Please understand, OP, that I'm not refering to you with the above comment. Your question was very respectful and didn't have the overtone to it that I was mentioning above. It was simply a remark made toward LadyA's continuance of the discussion.)

No offense taken whatsoever Miss; it's really great having people share thier thoughts on this. I very much appreciate your and everyone else's candor to this thread which I find quite refreshing actually.

< Message edited by doormat1975 -- 3/21/2010 5:23:13 PM >

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