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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 8:04:52 AM

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quote:

i dont believe single people should be allowed to adopt. there is no mutual support system, no one to work through the problems with together.

Taz...i believe single parents can and do an awesome job raising a child. Many have very strong support from partners, family, or friends.
Sadly in the case of this little boy, the support came from PutHimOnAPlane Grandma.

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 8:06:23 AM

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Part of my point Holly. If she had a partner... and im not speaking of just a married partner... someone as equally vested in this as she was, then maybe they could have overcome the problems. grandmas willingness to drop the kid off at the airport was a little too.. convenient.

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 8:09:32 AM

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quote:

i dont believe single people should be allowed to adopt.

Well I am glad the powers that be don't agree with you. If they did, my lesbian friend would never have been able to adopt the three adorable girls she has. After all, gays can't get married and if marriage is a condition of adoption, I guess gays shouldn't be able to adopt.

Now I am pretty sure that is not what you meant, but.......

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 8:11:56 AM

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LOL.. that is NOT what i meant. you may want to look at the post i made before yours before assuming as much. Ask your friend... adopting a newborn is easy. Adopting a 6 year old boy is harder. Harder still when its a foreign child who speaks little to no english. Even harder when there are already abandonment issues.

This was just layers of issues leading to defeat. The grandmother was NO help.

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 9:00:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

This was just layers of issues leading to defeat.

I agree - there are so many sides to this story and all we have is the bare bones. Who knows what is going to come out. And i can't see how any child coming from a severed relationship with its mother and being put in an orphanage could be completely mentally healthy.
Having said that, i don't condone putting a 7 year old on a plane alone with a stranger at the other end. What i do condone is severing the relationship before physical harm comes to anyone. I would hope that help was sought before everyone got to that point, and since this woman was a nurse, I would certainly hope she sought the help.
Having said that, I have heard of similar situations in the States where out-of-control kids, with lord only knows what pathology, have scared, terrorised and threatened their parents and siblings, even after help was sought. There seems to not be a lot of help with kids like this.

Holly, you sound as if you are coming from this story with the feelings of the boy in your center, I am coming from the point of view of a desperate woman, who I am thinking found very little help.
Neither of us are completely right, neither of us are completely wrong. What i think is going to happen, is that we are going to find out more details of what went into this decision. And I really don't think we are going to see an evil woman who went into this adoption to torture a little boy.

There have been times in raising (dragging up) my kids that i would have cheerfully given them away. and then regreted it. For all we know this woman is bitterly regreting her decision.
Regardless of the outcome, I don't think anyone would deny that this series of events hasn't don't done the boy any good.

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 9:52:13 AM

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Using FR

Now you know why I chose not to have kids. Even if the kid is perfectly normal you have your hands full. Anything on top of that is hard to take, and the possibility is there for any and all of us.

What people don't seem to understand is that the home is where the most shit happens. This is not a TV family. You catch the kid with a knife to your throat you smack the evil little fucker silly. You do niot do it in anger nor cause any harm, but you break the habit real quick. But you don't do it every day. In fact a study was done somewhere in which they made quite a bit of progress with autistic kids, literally with a smack upside the head. Running out into traffic is the same thing, this needs to stop NOW, even if fear must be used to do it. That is domination actually and it works. You do not want them to fear you at all, and that is a tightrope, but they must have a strong aversion to doing certain things, playing with fire, things like that. If talking doesn't work, something MUST.

"This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you", which they never believe, or "Go cut me a switch", which reaffirms submission as well as loyalty. Don't take the application of these principles to be kinky in any way in this context. Sometimes they are necessary. You have to escalate the punishment until the dangerous behavior is corrected. That is simple fact. But you must never do it in anger.

This is a tall charge for anyone, whether I would be totally up to it I can't say. My ideas on upbringing differ from those of the many. They get towards the teen years you smack them around every day, but in fun (and learning). There are assholes, bullies and predators in the schoolyard and on the wat to and from. Make them stronger. Make them know the only place they are relatively safe is at home. Make them respect home for that, if nothing else. You don't want them to fear you, but if nothing else works they must fear the consequenses of certain actions.

I don't claim to be an expert on this at all, but special circumstances require special responses. Some would say my responses are barbaric, and maybe rightly so. But if it's all that works then you need the guts to proceed.

But then sometimes it doesn't. I heard something about this kid getting beaten with broomsticks in the Russian orphanage ? Hold on, are you saying that they just lined the kids up every day and whupped them all in succesion and deemed it businaess as usual ? I find that hard to believe.

No matter what, I find the actions of this 33 year old who should probably be playing with dolls despicable. What's more didn't the kid become a citizen her upon adoption ? If so, help could be sought more locally I would think. But no, she sent him back like a defective toaster. What's more, with that mentality I'd bet she would not qualify for a domestic, above board adoption. First of all they are reluctant to place a child in a single Parent home, and I believe for good reason. I think it takes two people to raise a kid right, to exercise enoug influence to overcome peer pressure and other negative societal influences. In the past a Man and a Woman were supposedlt the ideal situation and that may be true. But if veryone has a brain I see no problem with it being two Men or two Women. But the point is that if you work and want any kind of life at all you need a partner.

And while I may rail against this ill directed Woman who did something stupid, not realizing what exactly she was doing, there is still a birth Mother in Russia somewhere who is equally as guilty.

On another thread someone asked about the definition of overpopulation. Well we put kids in jails for not having viable Parents, how does that grab ya ?

T

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 12:17:51 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

What people don't seem to understand is that the home is where the most shit happens. This is not a TV family. You catch the kid with a knife to your throat you smack the evil little fucker silly. You do niot do it in anger nor cause any harm, but you break the habit real quick. But you don't do it every day. In fact a study was done somewhere in which they made quite a bit of progress with autistic kids, literally with a smack upside the head. Running out into traffic is the same thing, this needs to stop NOW, even if fear must be used to do it. That is domination actually and it works. You do not want them to fear you at all, and that is a tightrope, but they must have a strong aversion to doing certain things, playing with fire, things like that. If talking doesn't work, something MUST.

Termy, the fact that you see hitting a child as a viable way to deal with problems with a child makes me very happy that you don't have kids and with any luck never will. As for the study you claim to have read that shows smacking as a way to help with autism, I very much doubt it. That doesn't even remotely sound like a study which would be carried out, it flies in the face of common sense. It would be a good way to get the child to crawl even deeper inside him/herself.

Fear doesn't cure problems, it just causes others. Please do children everywhere a favor and never, never become a parent.

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 12:43:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Holly,has anyone mentioned taken the time today to point out just how wonderful you are.....would you mind if I did?

*blushes*

Thanks Mike...but pot meets kettle
http://www.collarchat.com/m_3154468/tm.htm

Has "pot meets kettle" ever before been used as a compliment?
For some reason I tend to think of it as a rebuke....as I said in my choppy miscunstucted setence yesterday....you are indeed wonderful.

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 1:17:32 PM

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quote:

LOL.. that is NOT what i meant.

Yea, I know that, but I just had to.

and onto the subject of the OP. No, the grandmother was no help. In fact I think she is partly to blame for raising the bitch. I can't believe she is trying to claim she didn't realize the child might have problems. I would just assume that any child up for adoption is going to have some problems. Other wise he would be home with a loving family and not waiting at an orphanage for a new one. Kinda comes with the territory. She should have done a lot more thinking about this, before dragging the poor kid across the world, only to be rejected in such a cold manner.

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 1:25:39 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

Has "pot meets kettle" ever before been used as a compliment?

No but somehow it doesn't surprise me that Holly found a way to do it.

Oh and I agree with her opinion of you Mike, you're the tops

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 2:03:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

and onto the subject of the OP. No, the grandmother was no help. In fact I think she is partly to blame for raising the bitch. I can't believe she is trying to claim she didn't realize the child might have problems. I would just assume that any child up for adoption is going to have some problems. Other wise he would be home with a loving family and not waiting at an orphanage for a new one. Kinda comes with the territory. She should have done a lot more thinking about this, before dragging the poor kid across the world, only to be rejected in such a cold manner.

gawd i can not get the quotey thing down...anyhow, regarding the red part...

that would be an assumption that would be wrong. it all depends on what environment the child has been kept in while awaiting adoption. yes, the older a child is, the more chances there are for that child to have gotten fucked up, but it is not necessarily a fact, and is in the minority.

thing is, this type of thing happens more frequently than you know. it just is not usually an international incident that makes the news like this time.

i agree, the adoptive parent could have done things differently, but we do not have all the facts on what was done. i am just saying (or asking) that before judging her so harshly, you take the time to think about how hard the decision to go outside the us to adopt is, and realize all the redtape involved in that alone.

the reality of adopting an older child is sometimes not the expected. hell the reality of adopting a newborn is not always the expectation, but to be able to even consider bringing a child into your life that you did not birth is, 99% of the time, the most amazing gift that can be given. i have never met anyone who did it without a lot of soul searching.

and i can not provide links to back this up. all i can do is tell you is i am adopted, i have an older brother that is adopted. i was adopted as a newborn, he at the age of 2. he became a human being that, if i told you about it, would violate tos big time.

when i got pregnant with my son, i decided to look for my bio family, because i did not like having no medical background info. my mom had kept every piece of paperwork and happily handed them over to me.

the search got me involved with the agency that had handled my adoption, and later led to me having the great opportunity and honor to attend and participate in seminars with prospective adoptive parents, folks who had already adopted and were facing a multitude of problems, or others who just wanted the perspective of an adoptee for some reason.

in those meetings, and in all the contact i had with all sides of the adoption issue, i heard of things that warmed my heart, and i learned of things that made my skin crawl.

anyhoo, i guess this is a subject i am too close to in many ways to look at objectively, and i am willing to admit that. i just hope everyone who is ready to string the adoptive mom up and curse her will at least try to think of what her side is.

giving that child back may have been the worst thing she ever did in her life, or it may be a huge gift to that boy, but either way i would bet the decision to return him was not entered in to lightly, and was not an easy decision to make.

blah, im rambling, i apologize, and i hope some if thise made sense to someone.

< Message edited by JstAnotherSub -- 4/11/2010 2:20:57 PM >

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 6:54:28 PM

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quote:

According to the woman, the child was already damaged. I wouldn't want a kid in my home that was threatening to burn it down with me in it either.

He was supposedly already damaged, so it's ok that her actions damaged him further? Ja, if you say so.
Sending him back was bad, sending him back alone with a note pinned to his shirt declaring that he is psychotic was worse.... but there is no excuse for the fact that she hired a stranger over the internet to take custody of the child at the airport when he arrived back in Russia. The guy could have done anything to the kid and no one would have ever known, as the Russian authorities had no clue that the child had been sent back at all.

Also, as Zephy pointed out, the "mom" let her own mother take the kid to the airport alone. Either she isn't too fond of her mother, or someone isn't telling the truth.

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 7:03:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

Has "pot meets kettle" ever before been used as a compliment?

No but somehow it doesn't surprise me that Holly found a way to do it.

Oh and I agree with her opinion of you Mike, you're the tops

Stop it now....you're embarassing me.Besides no slave type wants to hhear he's the top.....lol.

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 7:22:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

What people don't seem to understand is that the home is where the most shit happens. This is not a TV family. You catch the kid with a knife to your throat you smack the evil little fucker silly. You do niot do it in anger nor cause any harm, but you break the habit real quick. But you don't do it every day. In fact a study was done somewhere in which they made quite a bit of progress with autistic kids, literally with a smack upside the head. Running out into traffic is the same thing, this needs to stop NOW, even if fear must be used to do it. That is domination actually and it works. You do not want them to fear you at all, and that is a tightrope, but they must have a strong aversion to doing certain things, playing with fire, things like that. If talking doesn't work, something MUST.

Termy, the fact that you see hitting a child as a viable way to deal with problems with a child makes me very happy that you don't have kids and with any luck never will. As for the study you claim to have read that shows smacking as a way to help with autism, I very much doubt it. That doesn't even remotely sound like a study which would be carried out, it flies in the face of common sense. It would be a good way to get the child to crawl even deeper inside him/herself.

Fear doesn't cure problems, it just causes others. Please do children everywhere a favor and never, never become a parent.

Termy is Polish and thinks the Jews are a nuisance. He did not benefit from a humanistic upbringing.

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 7:26:04 PM

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See chasing Kitten around was bound to bite me in the ass sooner or later....I had read this thread and had somehow missed terms thoughts on child rearing....and now I can no longer say that

by the way Kitten....Where have you been and how have you been?

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 4/11/2010 7:27:14 PM >

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 7:27:55 PM

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On the other hand, have you heard of the latest Massive Attack? It's to die for :-).

How are you, Mike, darling :-) ?

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 7:30:51 PM

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Good Kitten,please go see a thread in Off Topics...something about bragging are some such nonsense....I have a feeling I will be hearing from you oin one way or another shortly after you do so.

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 8:05:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
He was supposedly already damaged, so it's ok that her actions damaged him further? Ja, if you say so.

Is it possible to damage a psychotic kid further if they are already homicidal? What should she have done? Let him kill her family?

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 8:42:42 PM

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Perhaps she could have done what parents have always done(good ones anyway)get the child the help he needs.Now I know this wasn't her child...but if you go to the trouble of adopting a child...and all the way from Russia to boot....you are sort of commited.
The idea of treating a child as if it is a dog brought back from an animal shelter...and won't be housebroken...jsut doesn't sit right with me.
All this with out even discussing the way she handled the "return".Throw that into the mix and I'm not so sure I buy the "homicidal" tag.

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

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RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF - 4/11/2010 9:15:13 PM

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quote:

Is it possible to damage a psychotic kid further if they are already homicidal? What should she have done? Let him kill her family?

Big assumption there, Loki. Apparently, the kid wasn't homicidal back in January when "mom" had a home visit by a social worker, as no problems were reported then. I seriously doubt that a 6-7 year old kid that mentally unstable would be able to continue the act for over 4 months before suddenly becoming violent.

As for what she should have done, are you fucking kidding me? How about having the boy evaluated medically and psychologically? How about communicating with the social worker assigned to her case? How about getting in touch with the agency that arranged the adoption? How about calling CPS or even the police if necessary? How about calling the responsible agency in Russia and escorting the boy on the plane (after all, he didn't kill grandma on the way to the airport, did he?) or at least letting them know he was coming back on a particular flight.
FFS, I can't believe that you think it's ok to put a 7 year old kid on a plane alone, to be picked up by a complete stranger in another country.

Oh, and while we're at it... if the kid was that violent, and indeed homicidal, why on earth was he put on a plane full of people, with no one aware of that little fact? I suppose that's ok with you as well?

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(in reply to Loki45)

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