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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 5:35:54 AM

Aileen1968

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

What do you imagine Jesus would say to Paul (Saul)?

$20 bucks says that Milwaukee is gonna kick the Dodgers ass!

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 5:57:55 AM

Jeffff

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It would be bad to bet against Jesus.

You'd have to think he might have the inside track.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 6:10:23 AM

Aileen1968

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Well yes yes yes... I am all knowing. Alas. I didn't get the bet in on time with the bookie. God damn time zones.

Love,
Jesus

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 11:10:10 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine
If Jesus was the messiah to the Jews then why are Jews still persecuited?

The Romans continued to persecuite the Jews after Jesus's death. Hitler murdered lots of Jews too.

What exactly was Jesus supposed to save the Jews from?

From themselves. He tried to convert them to another religion. He failed mostly.

Paul did a much better job when he gave up on the Jews as a lost cause and when he convincingly argued against circumcision.

Populations that circumcise their males are eternally damned as they oppose the Divine.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 11:52:39 AM

Jeffff

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The one thing that can make a circumcised cock look good, are a womans lips wrapped around it!

That's a guarantee!

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 11:59:56 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine
If Jesus was the messiah to the Jews then why are Jews still persecuited?

The Romans continued to persecuite the Jews after Jesus's death. Hitler murdered lots of Jews too.

What exactly was Jesus supposed to save the Jews from?

From themselves. He tried to convert them to another religion. He failed mostly.

Paul did a much better job when he gave up on the Jews as a lost cause and when he convincingly argued against circumcision.

Populations that circumcise their males are eternally damned as they oppose the Divine.

You are mistaken in thinking Jesus tried to convert the Jews to another religion, Rule. No such thing. Jesus kept the Sabbath.
He was a Jew thru and thru. I know you have that whole circumcision fascination going on.... but wrong!

He came down out of the Galilee to preach an apocalyptic message.... the end of the world was at hand. The Son of Man would descend from the clouds and rule the world in the new order. The disciples would each rule one of the twelve tribes of Isreal presumably. The meek would inherit the earth, the first shall be last, the last shall be first, yatta, yatta.

Jesus would say, "Ah fuck! I was wrong."

Crawl back into his cave and roll the boulder back into place.

Wouldn't disturb Paul a bit. He would just go on preaching and converting the pagans and making up a new Jesus as he went along.

Which is what happened.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 2:10:26 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You are mistaken in thinking Jesus tried to convert the Jews to another religion, Rule. No such thing.

I am mistaken?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Jesus kept the Sabbath.

So what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
He was a Jew thru and thru.

I will assume that he was circumcised. Thus the only reason that he was not damned, was that he was not a Jew, but a non-Jew.

quote:

Gal. 6:15-16: "For what counts is neither circumcision nor uncircumcision, it is the new creation. On all who will be guided by this rule, may peace and mercy rest, even upon the Israel of God."

quote:

Phil 3:3: "For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh."

quote:

The Gnostic Gospel of Thomas (Greek fragments and a complete Coptic text dating from the first or second century CE of 114 sayings supposedly written by the apostle Thomas earlier than the New Testament) attributes a firm statement against circumcision to Jesus himself:

His disciples said to Him, "Is circumcision beneficial or not?"

He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable."
Thomas 53

If I recall correctly, Paul somewhere said that it was okay to be Christian and circumcised but that it was better to be not circumcised. I cannot find the reference, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I know you have that whole circumcision fascination going on.... but wrong!

Me? Wrong?

Why?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
He came down out of the Galilee to preach an apocalyptic message.... the end of the world was at hand. The Son of Man would descend from the clouds and rule the world in the new order. The disciples would each rule one of the twelve tribes of Isreal presumably. The meek would inherit the earth, the first shall be last, the last shall be first, yatta, yatta.

Do you have references for each of those assertions, or are those merely your interpretations?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Jesus would say, "Ah fuck! I was wrong."

Crawl back into his cave and roll the boulder back into place.

Wouldn't disturb Paul a bit. He would just go on preaching and converting the pagans and making up a new Jesus as he went along.

Which is what happened.

I do not know that much about Paul. He is tainted for being born a Jew, of course, being burdened by their cultural bagage.
I do know that Paul had walked the 'road to Damascus' - and I am not talking about a literal road here - which conceivably makes him about ten thousand times more holy than Jesus who is not known to me to have walked that 'road'. I know supergenius when I see it. Paul was a supergenius.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 3:50:39 PM

vincentML

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quote:

I will assume that he was circumcised. Thus the only reason that he was not damned, was that he was not a Jew, but a non-Jew.

How do you know he was not damned? How do you know anyone was damned or not damned? Point of fact is, you do not know. You merely accept Scripture as inerrant.

Yes, I know Paul had a conflict with Peter and James over the issue of whether pagans must first become Jews before they could become Christians. The Law demanding circumcision hindered Paul's attempt to create communities in Asia Minor. What you fail to express is the conflict from which Paul's comments arose. It is very easy to do a search on the word and come up with Biblical references but difficult to understand the mileu that influenced those references.

The Gnostic Gospel of Thomas from the First or Second Century in Greek/Coptic and you are convinced it was written by or dictated by the original Thomas??? You think Jesus followers were literate even in their probable native Aramaic? A bunch of ignorant fishermen who came down from the Sea of Galilee? Evidently, you have little or no knowledge of techniques/methods of Literary-Historical Criticism of the writings of the early era, elsewise you would not take everything at face value as you do. Perhaps I am being too harsh. Maybe you are not aware of the tradition/history of 200 years of Biblical Literary Criticism and scholarship in Germany and the United States.

Do I have references about Jesus' apocalyptic message? Oy! Boychick, do I have references. Of course. Pick up a copy of Bart Ehrman's book Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium It is a good read. You might also have a look at Albert Schweitzer's book The Quest of the Historical Jesus. which Ehrman cites. According to Albert, Jesus was focused on escatology ... the End Times. I have not read it yet. Let me know what you think.

If you do not know much about Paul as you admit why do you presume his words have merit. Yes, he was a Jew but his letters, those that are credited to him, were written in upper class Greek, indicating that he was a learned man. He really did not need Jesus. He built a church on the IDEA of Jesus. The entire religion is built upon that idea especially as expressed in the Gospel of John. In the synoptic gospels Jesus was leader of a small Jewish sect. He was pissed over the money changing in the Temple. If he were trying to start a "new" religion as you stated there would be no reason for him to care what occurred in the Temple in Jerusalem.

Jesus does not become Christ until the Fourth Gospel. John and Paul invented him as Christ.

Again, you do not know who (if anyone) was damned or not damned. Just your assumptions.

My assumption is just as valid. Jesus came out of the cave, found the world had survived his dire prophecy of the End Time and said .... "Oh fuck! I was wrong."

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/6/2010 3:57:00 PM >

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 4:02:47 PM

subrob1967

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I imagine it would be something like this...

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 5:04:42 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
How do you know he was not damned? How do you know anyone was damned or not damned? Point of fact is, you do not know. You merely accept Scripture as inerrant.

By my definition any population that circumcises the penis of their males is damned, as evidenced by their having five to six times as many progeny dying from inherited diseases as indigenous European Christian populations. It does not have anything to do with scripture. That Paul and apparently Thomas and Jesus and the Greeks that fought the Maccabees also recognized that circumcision is associated with evil is independent corroboration of my own conclusion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Yes, I know Paul had a conflict with Peter and James over the issue of whether pagans must first become Jews before they could become Christians. The Law demanding circumcision hindered Paul's attempt to create communities in Asia Minor. What you fail to express is the conflict from which Paul's comments arose. It is very easy to do a search on the word and come up with Biblical references but difficult to understand the milieu that influenced those references.

I understand evolution theory and genetics; that suffices. I do not need to understand the milieu at the time to comprehend Paul's unequivocal opposition against circumcision: the Jews who were circumcised of the flesh were evil, whereas the Gentile who were circumcised of the heart were good. It had nothing to do with converting pagans to Christianity. Christianity as such did not exist at the time. Paul still considered himself to be a Jew.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The Gnostic Gospel of Thomas from the First or Second Century in Greek/Coptic and you are convinced it was written by or dictated by the original Thomas???

Yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You think Jesus followers were literate even in their probable native Aramaic?

Yes. It is what religious people did in those regions: reading and writing religious texts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
A bunch of ignorant fishermen who came down from the Sea of Galilee?

They caught quite a lot of 'fish'. Perhaps they were a lot less ignorant than you suppose, not so? But perhaps you suppose that Jesus selected a bunch of intellectually deprived people for his disciples?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Evidently, you have little or no knowledge of techniques/methods of Literary-Historical Criticism of the writings of the early era, elsewise you would not take everything at face value as you do.

Good. Then I will not make the same mistakes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Perhaps I am being too harsh.

Maybe you are ignorant?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Maybe you are not aware of the tradition/history of 200 years of Biblical Literary Criticism and scholarship in Germany and the United States.

Indeed. I am blissfully unaware.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Do I have references about Jesus' apocalyptic message? Oy! Boychick, do I have references. Of course. Pick up a copy of Bart Ehrman's book Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium It is a good read. You might also have a look at Albert Schweitzer's book The Quest of the Historical Jesus. which Ehrman cites. According to Albert, Jesus was focused on escatology ... the End Times. I have not read it yet. Let me know what you think.

So you have no argument. Other people may have arguments, but you have none.

I am not going to read those books.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
If you do not know much about Paul as you admit why do you presume his words have merit.

I quoted a couple of his sentences that I know have merit. I have no idea what else he said and whether that has merit also. It has been 22 years that I read the Bible one time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Yes, he was a Jew but his letters, those that are credited to him, were written in upper class Greek, indicating that he was a learned man.

He was a Roman citizen. Of course he knew Latin and Greek.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
He really did not need Jesus. He built a church on the IDEA of Jesus. The entire religion is built upon that idea especially as expressed in the Gospel of John.

His experiences converted him to Christianity as it then was. Without Jesus there would have been no Paul, but only a Saul that would never have walked the 'road to Damascus'. You are just plain wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
In the synoptic gospels Jesus was leader of a small Jewish sect. He was pissed over the money changing in the Temple. If he were trying to start a "new" religion as you stated there would be no reason for him to care what occurred in the Temple in Jerusalem.

You cannot quote me as saying that Jesus was "trying to start a "new" religion".

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Jesus does not become Christ until the Fourth Gospel. John and Paul invented him as Christ.

I dunno about that. In what gospel did Mary anoint his feet?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Again, you do not know who (if anyone) was damned or not damned. Just your assumptions.

No, per my definition. Any population with a high prevalence of inherited diseases is obviously accursed and must be considered damned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
My assumption is just as valid. Jesus came out of the cave, found the world had survived his dire prophecy of the End Time and said .... "Oh fuck! I was wrong."

No, your assumption is not just as valid. Anybody can have an opinion, but precious few of those opinions are valid. The same goes for assumptions. An assumption is only valid if it is a correct assumption. At best your assumption is humor.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/6/2010 5:11:06 PM

heartcream

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

OK I'll answer my own question. I think Jesus would say, "WTF? Dood, I never meant to be anything but a Jew and to teach people not to be assholes."

Paraphrasing....

You think being a Jew thing was the forefront of all he ever meant to be?

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 3:55:03 AM

DomYngBlk

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I can't imagine he dwelled on his jewishness at all. I think we like to think we know what he was thinking and what the rest of the world at the time thought of him. We'd also love to know why he picked the disciples that he picked and what motivations they had after he died. Thing is, we don't. Hence, faith.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 4:26:11 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
How do you know he was not damned? How do you know anyone was damned or not damned? Point of fact is, you do not know. You merely accept Scripture as inerrant.

By my definition any population that circumcises the penis of their males is damned, as evidenced by their having five to six times as many progeny dying from inherited diseases as indigenous European Christian populations. It does not have anything to do with scripture. That Paul and apparently Thomas and Jesus and the Greeks that fought the Maccabees also recognized that circumcision is associated with evil is independent corroboration of my own conclusion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Yes, I know Paul had a conflict with Peter and James over the issue of whether pagans must first become Jews before they could become Christians. The Law demanding circumcision hindered Paul's attempt to create communities in Asia Minor. What you fail to express is the conflict from which Paul's comments arose. It is very easy to do a search on the word and come up with Biblical references but difficult to understand the milieu that influenced those references.

I understand evolution theory and genetics; that suffices. I do not need to understand the milieu at the time to comprehend Paul's unequivocal opposition against circumcision: the Jews who were circumcised of the flesh were evil, whereas the Gentile who were circumcised of the heart were good. It had nothing to do with converting pagans to Christianity. Christianity as such did not exist at the time. Paul still considered himself to be a Jew.

You may know a bit about evolution/genetics but you know dick about Paul/Jesus and the origins of the early church. On the latter topic you are totally ignorant. You have cherry-picked quotations from scripture and fashioned them to justifiy your own narrow, bigoted assumptions. That is the mark of an idiot not the scientist you have claimed to be in other threads. A scientist would be very interested in historical/literary analysis of written material, including the milieu in which the writing occurred. You asked for references; I gave you references. It is pointless to have a dialogue with someone who suffers such tunnel vision as you do.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 4:43:58 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

I can't imagine he dwelled on his jewishness at all. I think we like to think we know what he was thinking and what the rest of the world at the time thought of him. We'd also love to know why he picked the disciples that he picked and what motivations they had after he died. Thing is, we don't. Hence, faith.

Mostly the rest of the world was quite unaware of Jesus. He has a brief mention in the histories written by Josephus, the Jewish General who fell to the Romans. There is some controversy as well if that mention were not added to Josephus' writing by Christians following their rise to prominence in Rome.

Jesus was most certainly concerned with his Jewishness. He advocated keeping the Law of Moses when not inconveniient except that the most important Laws were to love god and love one another. He attacked the money changers in the Temple as defielers. The money changers were a function of the Passover celebration. Roman currency was used outside the Temple but inside the Temple only Jewish currency was permitted. Jews came from all over the Mediterranean world to celebrate the Passover seder. They were required to purchase a lamb blessed inside the Temple. Hence the money changers. Jesus was a Jew. The Christian "fathers" found it necessary to diminish his "jewishness" and that, it has been speculated, was the beginning of the long and horrid journey of persecution of the Jews as Christ killers. Reference: Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews by James Carroll.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 4:49:00 AM

DomYngBlk

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There is also belief and some evidence that he traveled extensively during his "quiet" period. The rest of the world would have known about him. There is no other good explanation why a pesky new religion founded in Palestine would have had the amount of success that it did over the years without it.

He lived in a Jewish world and tried to teach his message within that context.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 4:52:36 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

I can't imagine he dwelled on his jewishness at all. I think we like to think we know what he was thinking and what the rest of the world at the time thought of him. We'd also love to know why he picked the disciples that he picked and what motivations they had after he died. Thing is, we don't. Hence, faith.

I would believe, from what he did and said(whether one believes them as fact or stories), he was very aware of his ancestory and his 'jewishness'.

The problem (in a discussion sense)with claiming that because we don't know, is why faith exists, is a bit risky really. If you don't know, you ask and you study etc... not hedge your bets.
Urgh... somone here will tell me... whats that hedging your bets story/legend/analagy thingy? Like Pavlovs bell - but not (if you get my meaning. Lordy I cannot think of the right words this afternoon.

the.dark.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 5:03:53 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Jesus was a Jew. The Christian "fathers" found it necessary to diminish his "jewishness" and that, it has been speculated, was the beginning of the long and horrid journey of persecution of the Jews as Christ killers. Reference: Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews by James Carroll.

Hello vincent... big hugs*

You know... in all my study of Jesus, roman history, christianity etc. it has only been the last couple of years that I came across this terrible persecution (thankfully in more ancient times) of Jews because of the death of Jesus. It's the one part of christian 'history' that no one wants to talk about. Of course that just makes me want to look more!

But I have a habit of going to various peeps and asking, and it's really the part that wants to be swept under the carpets... the whole inquisition thing... witch hunts... even pagan holidays... these I can have pretty cool convos about but the Christian persecution of Jews is really hard to get going into.
I haven't read that book you mentioned... I must look into it!

I pretty much agree with your surmise. He did and instructed to be done too many jewish traditions, values and teachings to say he would never have considered his 'jewishness' - regardless as to whether he was in a Jewish 'world' or not. He was baptised for one... something that people see as inherently christian. Nope - jewish. He didn't consider himself 'christian'... only constantine created that.

the.dark.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 6:57:22 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

There is also belief and some evidence that he traveled extensively during his "quiet" period. The rest of the world would have known about him. There is no other good explanation why a pesky new religion founded in Palestine would have had the amount of success that it did over the years without it.

He lived in a Jewish world and tried to teach his message within that context.

Quite the contrary. Christianity was not founded in Palestine. It was spread by Paul through Asia Minor and became fashionable in Rome. It was Paul's intent to travel as far as Spain but he never made it. As the.dark points out in her response Christianity was established by the Emperor Constantine.

As to Jesus' magical mystery tour, there seems to be no evidence that he popped up in any populated town or city. There may have been some other mention of him...perhaps Pliny the Elder, I think. It escapes me now.

You are quite correct, I would say, DYB, that he lived in a Jewish world and preached his message in that world. But recall the nature of that world ... a history of conquest by Babylon, then Syria, and in his lifetime Rome. It was a time, I have read, when apocalyptic distress was rampant and there were a number of attempts to throw off the occupiers. The Son of Man and the End Times were expressed in the Book of Daniel with which Jesus probably had some acquaintance. the.dark points out that Jesus was baptised as a Jew.... when he was an adult I should add. His brand of Judaism was regarded as a threat by the Pharisees and Sadducees, the two major religious/political/economic powers in Jerusalem. Like the Essenes, John the Baptist and Jesus were probably regarded as eccentric but dangerous outliers. They both, John and Jesus, ended up badly as we know.

Hugssss back to the.dark * smiles *

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 10:03:27 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You may know a bit about evolution/genetics but you know dick about Paul/Jesus and the origins of the early church. On the latter topic you are totally ignorant.

Umm, perhaps I do know more than you assume?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You have cherry-picked quotations from scripture

I happen to like cherries!

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You have cherry-picked quotations from scripture and fashioned them to justify your own narrow, bigoted assumptions.

What assumptions, pray tell? Please do quote me that I may know that you are not making them up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
That is the mark of an idiot not the scientist you have claimed to be in other threads.

Pff. Cherry-picking is what scientists do: select the relevant and ignore the detritus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
A scientist would be very interested in historical/literary analysis of written material, including the milieu in which the writing occurred. You asked for references; I gave you references.

I am interested, but such information is not required to comprehend the cherries that I picked. Paul was very clear about why he opposed circumcision.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
It is pointless to have a dialogue with someone who suffers such tunnel vision as you do.

When I was eleven I had a school friend who suffered from tunnel vision. He was transferred to an institute for the blind.

Your allegation is ludicrous. Present valid arguments and I will take them into consideration, learn from them and may even change my conclusions. You have not presented such valid arguments.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 10:06:58 AM

domiguy

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This why you will some day rule us all.

It is not only your divine intelligence but they way you will take the time to kindly address those that you know you could easily be crushing like a bug.

All hail Rule!!! All hail Rule!!! All hail Rule!!! All hail Rule!!!

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