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RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 5/31/2010 10:18:49 PM   
Ishtarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


Maybe you have to create universal truths upon which to act, rather than expect them to come to you all pre-packaged like a microwave dinner.

 


That does sound like an interesting book.
And I totally agree that we have to create our own universal truths and that ethical systems that come per-packaged will always fall short in the long run.
The problem is that MY universal truths don't necessarily apply to everybody.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 5/31/2010 10:19:27 PM >

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RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 5/31/2010 10:28:32 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


Maybe you have to create universal truths upon which to act, rather than expect them to come to you all pre-packaged like a microwave dinner.

 


That does sound like an interesting book.
And I totally agree that we have to create our own universal truths and that ethical systems that come per-packaged will always fall short in the long run.
The problem is that MY universal truths don't necessarily apply to everybody.


The book's quite good, in my opinion.

What I'm opposed to is this ever-encroaching comfortable relativism, I dare say almost 'eastern' meditative relativism, mixed with a hypocritical multiculturalism, and a dash of I'm-just-trying-to-defend-my-rights (capital).

Like, global warming, for one, is an issue where we see an emerging universal truth that must be upheld. The cold war is another example -- as technology increases, the room for a disconnected moral relativism decreases -- sometimes, despite all the calamity you might cause, one has brutally to say, 'This is how it should be!'

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/31/2010 10:29:28 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 5/31/2010 10:37:22 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

You have almost convinced me that you are right, but still I'll try to think of a system that would be universally applicable, which will take some time.


I look forward to hearing your thought, I've been trying to define one for the last decade and have failed miserable.
I wish it would be possible, it would make life a whole lot easier.

The closest I can personally get to universal ethics is Utilitarianism, which would only work on a practical level if we would be able to predict the future.
Seeing that we can't do that, we're still stuck using contextual ethical system to define for ourselves what's right and wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

"Assume that there is universal ethics which is independent of your reasoning and understanding and behave in accordance to this fictional ethics"



Same problem as with Utilitarianism: seeing that we don't know what the fictional ethical system is, we're on a practical level stuck with contextual ethics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

"Do only the things that you think that Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Omniscient and Just God would approve of doing ."



I actually find the idea of Divine ethics quite plausible, the only problem I have with it is that unless the Deity lets us know with absolute certainty what the Divine ethics are, we as mortals are still stuck trying to define our own ethical systems using contextual ethics.
Thus, Divine ethics works great in theory, but has no practical value unless you can factually proof any religious text to be the perfect will of a Deity.
Again, same problem as what we have with Utilitarian ethics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

"Do only things that you sincerely believe majority of people would approve if they were perfectly knowledgeable of all the aspects of that particular situation"


Just because the majority believes the Earth is flat doesn't make it so.
People, as a mass, can be idiots, and that's been proven time and time again, so I'd have to reject this too.




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Hör wie es schreit!

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 5/31/2010 10:42:11 PM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


What I'm opposed to is this ever-encroaching comfortable relativism, I dare say almost 'eastern' meditative relativism, mixed with a hypocritical multiculturalism, and a dash of I'm-just-trying-to-defend-my-rights (capital).

Like, global warming, for one, is an issue where we see an emerging universal truth that must be upheld. The cold war is another example -- as technology increases, the room for a disconnected moral relativism decreases -- sometimes, despite all the calamity you might cause, one has brutally to say, 'This is how it should be!'



I hear you, and I agree, it's scary and annoying at the same time.
But I don't think the main problem is that people over-define their own ethical systems, but instead that most people don't even bother defining their own ethical system.
Secondary the problem seems to be that those rare individuals who halfheartedly do define a "sorta" ethical system then do not even bother to keep their own ethical system, and instead constantly behave unethical in even their own opinion.

With most people behaving unethically even by just their own standards you're going to get... well the whole mess you just mentioned.




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Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 6/1/2010 1:55:28 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
What I'm opposed to is this ever-encroaching comfortable relativism...

This is where you have to make some choices and draw boundaries for your ownself. Else you are gonna end up bending and swaying in the wind regardless of which way things blow. It's good to be somewhat flexible, but if you are too much, you'll become wishy washy and indecisive. If you are submissive in nature, it's best to pick and choose who's gonna tug your leash in whatever direction. I'm not certain what your orientation is, I've not checked out your profile. If you're Dominant, you need to be solid and consistent. I'm trying to be honest and blunt here with you.


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RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 6/1/2010 8:12:33 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
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Status: offline 		IMHO, if someone harms someone both illegally and unconsensually, they are almost certainly being unethical. If their action was legal but not consensual, it might still be considered ethical, such as a soldier or police officer killing or injuring someone in the line of duty, or I might still consider it to be unethical, such as various "ethnic cleansings," torture (including that carried out in Iraq and Abu Ghraib, or a grey area that depends on circumstances, such as the death penalty for crimes. If they are harmed consensually but not legally, such as with BDSM, I usually don't have an ethical problem, as long as they are of age and capable of informed consent to sex, surgery, etc. If they are harmed legally but not consensually, such as physical punishment of children that doesn't officially cross the line into child abuse, cheating on one's spouse, saying things that are deliberately hurtful but not illegal, I frequently feel it crosses the line into being unethical, but I wouldn't say that is true in all situations in that category.

If someone has extenuating circumstances, such as stealing because they or their loved ones were starving, or because they were under the influence of a compulsion such as kleptomania or a drug addiction, it doesn't make their theft ethical, but should be taken into consideration in their punishment. Harming someone with a motivation of self-preservation might very loosely be considered a form of self-defense. IMHO, killing the baby out of fear of discovery would still be unethical, but again, I would be more understanding and think less badly of them than if they did the same thing just because they didn't want to listen to the infant cry and were not any danger.

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 6/1/2010 10:22:23 AM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
What I'm opposed to is this ever-encroaching comfortable relativism...

This is where you have to make some choices and draw boundaries for your ownself. Else you are gonna end up bending and swaying in the wind regardless of which way things blow. It's good to be somewhat flexible, but if you are too much, you'll become wishy washy and indecisive. If you are submissive in nature, it's best to pick and choose who's gonna tug your leash in whatever direction. I'm not certain what your orientation is, I've not checked out your profile. If you're Dominant, you need to be solid and consistent. I'm trying to be honest and blunt here with you.



I'm dominant. I need to dominate myself, as it were, which I enjoy very much.

In terms of submissive types, I hope they can find people worthy of their submission.


(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 6/1/2010 10:35:04 AM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

You have almost convinced me that you are right, but still I'll try to think of a system that would be universally applicable, which will take some time.

Before that I will suggest some simple, but interesting alternatives:

First is "fictional" ethics which would state:

"Assume that there is universal ethics which is independent of your reasoning and understanding and behave in accordance to this fictional ethics"

Second is divine ethics (which can also be used by atheists, they only have to immagine there is such God, even if they don't believe in him)

"Do only the things that you think that Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Omniscient and Just God would approve of doing ."

Third is populistic ethics:

"Do only things that you sincerely believe majority of people would approve if they were perfectly knowledgeable of all the aspects of that particular situation"


I admire the whole process of running through the choices.

Still, I think you could have a relative ethics that isn't absolute relativism (nihilism) and that is still in some sense 'active'.

Maybe you need first to establish whether the given universal (maybe even global) coordinates are generally good or bad, and then base particular actions on whether or not these actions act to sustain or to change (overthrow, even) the given coordinates.

For instance, I have been avoiding fast food not only because of the personal health benefits of not eating this shit but also out of a sense of ethics, that my money (my vote) shouldn't support the degradation of the American food system, nor should it support the waste, excess, and fundamental indecency of corporately structured society.


(in reply to SocratesNot)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 6/1/2010 11:35:10 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
In this case, it seems that I am arguing for your point, but I said that it is hard to find such system, but not impossible.
I think that it is impossible to sum such system in one sentence, but if you made an ethical system that consists of several statements
for example 5-6 sentences or maybe even more, which include a lot of "if... then" , "only if", "unless..." and "in case of" formulations ,
then such system could probably be universally applicable, but it would demand a lot of thinking to effectively invent such system.

With this, we have come full circle.  If you would apply this reasoning to the way you view BDSM or authority dynamics, it would get you a lot further in your understanding of such.  Unfortunately, being caught up in the 'everyone feels like I do' syndrome is the part where it's being skipped to mention 'except those that don't'.  This is where the fallacy lies. 

No matter what you come up with, there are going to be people who feel differently than you do.  There are going to be cases of 'except for', 'instead of', 'in cases of', 'opinion against the majority', and every other type of clause you can come up with.  Just like there is no universal ethic that applies to every individual to a specific situation, there is no universal truth that applies to all of BDSM.  Even if it is just one person out of millions, you lose the absolute. 


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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 6/2/2010 2:18:39 PM   
subblossom


Posts: 3
Joined: 6/2/2010
Status: offline 		There is appeal to myself and my Dom outside of sexual. We have talked about it being a 24/7 thing within reason. Obviously, I cannot be submissive at my job, but that would be an exception. I want to be dominated as often as possible, whether that is in public or private.

(in reply to pompeii)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 6/2/2010 5:59:38 PM   
SomethingCatchy


Posts: 796
Joined: 7/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you outside the sexual?

For me, the whole D/s thing has no value outside sexual overtones. Just curious if most others are similar ...



I don't want sex from a submissive. I want him fully clothed doing something productive and helpful. Sex is very low on the priority list, and him wagging it in my face ain't gonna make it jump higher.


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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 6/3/2010 10:33:34 AM   
HeathenMa1am


Posts: 48
Joined: 1/29/2010
Status: offline 		At this point in my life, the ONLY appeal is beyond the sexual. The sex is irrelevant. I just want to be in charge. In charge of our lives together as a couple, of our home, of our family finances, of planning and selecting everything. Lady points, knight goes where she points. The sex could be totally vanilla for all I care about that aspect of it.

I passed through my kinky sex experimenting stage when I identified as a sub. Now I am passed that stage and ready to get on with real life, and I want to be the head of the household. That's all. The dominance-submission dynamic has nothing to do with sex for me.

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 6/3/2010 10:48:06 AM   
sodsta


Posts: 246
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From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

I tend to think that the entire D/s and even M/s dynamic is in some subtle ways indirectly driven by sexuality.
If this is not true, then there would be many same-sex non-homosexual D/s relationships. In  reality there are none.

Of course there are other good things about D/s outside sexual sphere, but I think that eventually, sexuality
is the driving force of the entire dynamic.


Agreed. 100%. *high fives*

(in reply to SocratesNot)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Does the BDSM D/s dynamic have any appeal for you o... - 6/3/2010 9:09:24 PM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
For example Nazis thought that it was virtuous to kill Jews, Gypsies and to do many other horrible things.
They perfectly adhered to their own ethics....


Think you need to go into exploring more about history, how hitler came to power, how others germans or those of the Nazi Party were being hoodwinked and lied to about the torture and killing going on in the concentration camps. Not to mention the role of the SS, to which put fear and control over other miltary personel and etc. A lot of people were harmed, mislead, exploited and killed, which included other Nazi's, Military and/or political leaders. Not to mention the mass suicides that came in the wake of the aftermath. It's a bit of a misconception that everybody thought it was virtuous to kill Jews. Fuck All, a lot of people were unaware of just how much shit was really going on. Sure, there were rumors and some people knew the truth, which is why people risked thier very lives giving jewish families safe haven and hiding them, or helping get them the hell out of the country. You ignorance is showing here dude, especially the fact that a lot of fucking people got hoodwinked hardcore.


Just a small, for me, side note on this. My Maternal Grandfather as both a Prussian Officer and aristocrat who joined the Waffen SS Officer Corps because at the time it was the elite in the Military (They proved themselves in combat in Russia which has nothing to do with this). he shot himself when he found out what was happening in concentration camps as being the only honourable thing to do. he had long before split with his wife, my Maternal Grandmother who was living in New Zealand until my Mother was born and then moved to Australia. (Incidentally, she, my Grandmother was also a Danish Aristocrat with direct ties to the Danish Throne.). I have my Grandfather's journals and daily diaries together with a whole host of other gear. The bummer is after the War with the Soviets taking over Prussia, the Ancestral home/Châteaux/Castle (call it what you will, was virtually destroyed in the war and although I could make a claim in the world court for the return of properties, the buildings have been used, by peasants, to build stone fences and what ever and even though I may recover the property as it is now, I'm damned sure the court and governments will not give me the peasants (or their descendants to work the fields.). WEG

< Message edited by IronBear -- 6/3/2010 9:11:29 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 174
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