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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 9:27:07 AM

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quote:

Jesus didn't die though. Had he 'died' in the usual sense, he would have been more a marytr or saint. More important is/was his resurection.

Well, there is some debate, or was some debate about that wasn't there, dark? Some believed that since Jesus was God he could not suffer death as men/women do ordinarily. He left the body husk behind as his spirit resumed its proper condition.

Which brings up the additional point.... if god cannot be killed, as you say, how can he be resurrected? Seems an inherently illogical construct until you circle back to flesh incarnate.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 9:31:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Which brings up the additional point.... if god cannot be killed, as you say, how can he be resurrected? Seems an inherently illogical construct until you circle back to flesh incarnate.

I think it's something Christ was able to do because he was playing a broken third party prestige class that WOTC aren't allowing anymore.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 9:56:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Which brings up the additional point.... if god cannot be killed, as you say, how can he be resurrected? Seems an inherently illogical construct until you circle back to flesh incarnate.

I think it's something Christ was able to do because he was playing a broken third party prestige class that WOTC aren't allowing anymore.

Okay, I suspect this is some Brit football reference that would bring me a smile if I knew wtf it meant

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 11:31:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Jesus was a Rabbi

Please OH PLEASE, OH PLEASE tell me where it is said that Jesus held the position of Rabbi?

Jesus was called by that title several times. Here are two instances. It is still a matter that is in dispute as to what the term actually meant. The dispute was ressurrected after the "da vinci code" came out. The title can either prove or disprove that Jesus was married as historically a Rabbi HAD to be married. (and you know you can't fuck AND be the redeemer at the same.) I personally try to stay out of that particular dispute since I don't really believe in Jesus the way most Judeo Christians believe in him. BTW- He WAS against organized religion. The one or two times he went to church, the church leaders tried to kill him.

John 1:49

49Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 3:2

4The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Just saying that "rabbi" means "teacher" in Hebrew. The modern certification process for rabbis was of course not in effect during Biblical times. Use of the term was a mark of respect for someone from whom you learned.

< Message edited by DarkSteven -- 6/27/2010 11:37:06 AM >

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 11:56:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Which brings up the additional point.... if god cannot be killed, as you say, how can he be resurrected? Seems an inherently illogical construct until you circle back to flesh incarnate.

I think it's something Christ was able to do because he was playing a broken third party prestige class that WOTC aren't allowing anymore.

Okay, I suspect this is some Brit football reference that would bring me a smile if I knew wtf it meant

Dungeons and Dragons joke, as a matter of fact: I was looking for a reference that would go transatlantic.
D&D's current publishers Wizards Of The Coast, have gone on record a few times complaining about other people publishing supplements with provide ludicrously overpowered character classes that unbalance the game a bit. A lot of these are based on villains from their own supplements, who have odd careers that weren't cooked up with players in mind (the term for this is "broken"). A prestige class is any character class that isn't in the original ruleset, regardless of where it appears.
Hence, a broken third party prestige class is character class that's been worked out from an absurdly powerful bad guy by somebody who doesn't work for WOTC. I'm not sure if any of them can spontaneously rise from the dead (the last time I played any D&D TSR still owned it), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a few who can.

I could make a British football reference if you'd rather, though.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 1:26:09 PM

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I get your point and it is clever/funny. Sorry you had to explain it to me. I would be equally clueless were it D&D or Brit football .... but thanks for the offer.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 1:31:10 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Well, there is some debate, or was some debate about that wasn't there, dark? Some believed that since Jesus was God he could not suffer death as men/women do ordinarily. He left the body husk behind as his spirit resumed its proper condition.

It's debated. It really comes down to the issue of whether anyone really 'dies' ' death is a bit of a loose definition really.

quote:

Which brings up the additional point.... if god cannot be killed, as you say, how can he be resurrected? Seems an inherently illogical construct until you circle back to flesh incarnate.

Becaused he is god, but is also man. Bit like a caterpillar and butterfly thing really...

the.dark.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 1:32:53 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Dungeons and Dragons joke, as a matter of fact: I was looking for a reference that would go transatlantic.
D&D's current publishers Wizards Of The Coast, have gone on record a few times complaining about other people publishing supplements with provide ludicrously overpowered character classes that unbalance the game a bit. A lot of these are based on villains from their own supplements, who have odd careers that weren't cooked up with players in mind (the term for this is "broken"). A prestige class is any character class that isn't in the original ruleset, regardless of where it appears.
Hence, a broken third party prestige class is character class that's been worked out from an absurdly powerful bad guy by somebody who doesn't work for WOTC. I'm not sure if any of them can spontaneously rise from the dead (the last time I played any D&D TSR still owned it), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a few who can.

Geek.

the.dark.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 1:33:01 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Given that it is said that Jesus died for our sins, I have to ask what was considered our sins and since Jesus died for our sins, have we repented our sins in reverence for Jesus's teachings ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

There is a second school of thought, A, which holds that Jesus did not come to die for the sins of mankind but rather as a revelation of God's love for mankind whom He created. Just sayin'

Now, right there, it does get confusing. Two different schools of thought as to what was the purpose (if there was one) of Jesus.

Personally, I reject the first, and accept the second.

And this is a personal belief developed in my own life.

I cannot convince you that it is the real truth ... and I do not want to ... but it works just fine for me.

And because it works fine for me ... I read many of the gospel stories as analogies ... that sometimes ... actually reveal insight into people ... that is applicable to my life and everyday events that are occurring to me.

Perhaps even ... provide guidance into handling issues... in my life.

To put this another way ... Dale Carnegie ... with the force of God thrown in for good measure.

This I believe is the real value of Jesus.

He left me some sayings and some stories ... that help me live my own life ... in a more constructive, positive manner.

And then he died … end of story.

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 1:44:29 PM

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quote:

No we have not failed, we have made mistakes and the world survives, we have done good and we have done evil, we have harmed and we have healed. It is also written "to everything there is a season and time for EVERY purpose under heaven" these words state that there is a time for war, a time to pluck up, cast away, lose, and yes, even a time to HATE. It gives the positive and the negatives. Mankind does both.

Which is from Ecclesiastes and is not very encouraging an answer to the OP:

1 The words of the Teacher, [a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:

2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!"
says the Teacher.
"Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless."

3 What does man gain from all his labor
at which he toils under the sun?

4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.

5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.

6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.

7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.

8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.

9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

10 Is there anything of which one can say,
"Look! This is something new"?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.

11 There is no remembrance of men of old,
and even those who are yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow.

12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men!

14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

15 What is twisted cannot be straightened;
what is lacking cannot be counted.

16 I thought to myself, "Look, I have grown and increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge."

17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.

18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.

Oy! I have a headache already.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 1:55:29 PM

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quote:

That was my 1st big laugh today.....

Thanks for that.

We aims to please round here!

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 1:59:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

It's debated. It really comes down to the issue of whether anyone really 'dies' ' death is a bit of a loose definition really.

Ah, you have a wonderful optimism, dark. I envy you that.

quote:

Which brings up the additional point.... if god cannot be killed, as you say, how can he be resurrected? Seems an inherently illogical construct until you circle back to flesh incarnate.

quote:

: RCdc Becaused he is god, but is also man. Bit like a caterpillar and butterfly thing really...

the.dark.

Of course, I knew that. I was just baiting you a bit.

Being raised a Catholic boy, I recall watching that transubstantiation trick at Mass each Sunday.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 2:17:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

Perhaps even ... provide guidance into handling issues... in my life.

To put this another way ... Dale Carnegie ... with the force of God thrown in for good measure.

This I believe is the real value of Jesus.

He left me some sayings and some stories ... that help me live my own life ... in a more constructive, positive manner.

And then he died … end of story.

I am glad it works for you, but it does get a bit complicated depending if you are Catholic or Evangelical. I hope someone will come along and steer me on this, me being a seriously interested atheist.

If you are Catholic, as I once was, your sins are forgiven if you confess and perform penance/works. The ecclesiastical church, Mary and all the saints are your intersessors to salvation. You may have to spend a little time with some minor suffering in purgatory but that can be shortened after you die by having friends donate for lighting candles and praying for you. Sort of a last gasp of indulgences.

If however you are evangelical you follow in the footsteps of Paul, Augustine, and Martin Luther then mankind is corrupt, rotten to the core, from the beginning, or at least from when Adam was disobedient. For you, confession and doing good works are useless. The Law is useless because the Law is impossible to follow. It is a giant mindfuck. Salvation comes from rebirth in Grace which is granted to you through the resurrection of Christ. Either you have it or you don't and tough on you if you don't. You're toast.

The alternative, Christ's crucifixion as a sign of God's love and forgiveness, was proposed by Abelard if I remember my reading which I may not, and he did not make out too well with it.

I hope someone will jump in and help me out here.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 2:27:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Dungeons and Dragons joke, as a matter of fact: I was looking for a reference that would go transatlantic.
D&D's current publishers Wizards Of The Coast, have gone on record a few times complaining about other people publishing supplements with provide ludicrously overpowered character classes that unbalance the game a bit. A lot of these are based on villains from their own supplements, who have odd careers that weren't cooked up with players in mind (the term for this is "broken"). A prestige class is any character class that isn't in the original ruleset, regardless of where it appears.
Hence, a broken third party prestige class is character class that's been worked out from an absurdly powerful bad guy by somebody who doesn't work for WOTC. I'm not sure if any of them can spontaneously rise from the dead (the last time I played any D&D TSR still owned it), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a few who can.

Geek.

the.dark.

The geek will inherit the Earth, mate.
(I need to know which geek that is, though...)

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 2:29:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

[I am glad it works for you, but it does get a bit complicated depending if you are Catholic or Evangelical. I hope someone will come along and steer me on this, me being a seriously interested atheist.
I hope someone will jump in and help me out here.

Who says you have to be any of those things to follow Jesus. I don't recall a single place where Jesus declared a religion. And as far as how to follow him, look at his teachings and not just the words but the "spirit" of his words. Love, brotherhood, helping the poor and sick. He talked alot about forgiveness and very little about condemnation. Even if you don't believe the story of his death and resurrection, his teachings still offer a moral path for living, without the dogma of religion.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 2:31:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

It's debated. It really comes down to the issue of whether anyone really 'dies' ' death is a bit of a loose definition really.

Ah, you have a wonderful optimism, dark. I envy you that.

quote:

Which brings up the additional point.... if god cannot be killed, as you say, how can he be resurrected? Seems an inherently illogical construct until you circle back to flesh incarnate.

quote:

: RCdc Becaused he is god, but is also man. Bit like a caterpillar and butterfly thing really...

the.dark.

Of course, I knew that. I was just baiting you a bit. Being raised a Catholic boy, I recall watching that transubstantiation trick at Mass each Sunday.

If there is a God and I believe there is...If you believe He has created all that we see in the universe then how can we as humans begin to understand a mind capable of doing those things?

We can get ideas from the teachings in the bible of what he wants us to become or do if you believe in those but that's about all we can do.

For me to know the mind of God would kinda be like an ant knowing what I was thinking and figuring out how I did things.

A multitude of wormholes, solar systems, black holes, red giants, blue dwarfs (and green clovers for the smartarses in the bunch..beatya to it!)..That's all the proof I need for God not that I don't have personal proof for myself.

I think Hawkins will have an uphill battle trying to make heads or tales outta that.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 6/27/2010 2:32:23 PM >

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 2:40:13 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

[I am glad it works for you, but it does get a bit complicated depending if you are Catholic or Evangelical. I hope someone will come along and steer me on this, me being a seriously interested atheist.
I hope someone will jump in and help me out here.

Who says you have to be any of those things to follow Jesus. I don't recall a single place where Jesus declared a religion. And as far as how to follow him, look at his teachings and not just the words but the "spirit" of his words. Love, brotherhood, helping the poor and sick. He talked alot about forgiveness and very little about condemnation. Even if you don't believe the story of his death and resurrection, his teachings still offer a moral path for living, without the dogma of religion.

You nailed it ... Lady Cimarron

... right on the money.

< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 6/27/2010 2:44:27 PM >

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 3:16:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

You all should do some research on Horus.

Christianity may be the simple retelling of an older story.

QSM

Exactly and those stories are usually also connected to astronomical occurrences like solstices etc. Lots of symbolism to represent the four parts, four directions and so on and so on. Even the last Czar and Czarina story/reality is overlapping this as well.

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 3:23:16 PM

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I'm not sure where the idea came from that Jesus died in vain. Its surely obvious even to a school child that he died in jerusalem?

Or has this thread come uv as a discussion of a vrinting error that pexed the author of the OV?

E

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RE: Did Jesus die in vain ? - 6/27/2010 3:32:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm not sure where the idea came from that Jesus died in vain. Its surely obvious even to a school child that he died in jerusalem?

Or has this thread come uv as a discussion of a vrinting error that pexed the author of the OV?

E

Are you drunk?

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