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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 11:26:52 AM

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I work in the auto bizz, at the dealership level.

I have personally fired one man and suspended two others for sexual harassment.

This is the car bizz, we are not the most enlightened business in the country.

There was one law suit involved. the fact that I fired him immediately ameliorated damages.

The settelment was for 10,000.00

If you are being harrased and you don't speak up, it is your tough shit.

btw... nice ass!

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 11:27:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

Not sure what corporate world you are coming from, but here in NYC it does in fact, run rampant. I have seen many overly qualified, higher performing women not attain the same levels as underqualified men simply because they were not part of the "club".

This has nothing to do with sexual harassment; it is far more subtle. So taking action is a bit more difficult to prove.

So not an understatement; it is a fact.

I see far too many woman that are successful to consider it rampant. I see people with grievances that far too often hide behind sexism as a way to diminish their own culpability. The same holds true with race but to a much lesser extent.

If you got the balls you break down those walls. It might be a bit harder which is an injustice, but I have personally seen far too many woman succeed to discount their success as being random or some sort of an aberration.

Is there still a glass ceiling...Yes, there is. More and more woman are making it to the top of corporations. More and more women are entering the workplace and are making an impact which cannot be discounted.

There is still an discrepancy in income levels but it is becoming less significant. It is difficult for employers to place a ton of resources into women who might at the drop of a hat abandon their workplace in favor of raising a family.

You should look at everyone as an individual. When does performing smart business tactics get in the way of the individuals right to climb the ladder? Great question. Tough question.

My friends just must be all very exceptional women.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 11:28:29 AM

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quote:

If you are being harrased and you don't speak up, it is your tough shit.

I saw what happened in my town to women who spoke up, they didn't work anymore in the food and beverage industry. They became known as "sue happy"

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 11:32:08 AM

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quote:

There is still an discrepancy in income levels but it is becoming less significant.

When you are a single parent, making thirty cents on the dollar less than your male counterparts is anything but "insignificant"

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 11:34:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

one lawsuit is all it takes....Hidden tape recorder and you own the business.

First incident, the guy wanted me to swim naked in his hot tub after work... the offer came only once... I didn't do it, but the cocktail server who did got all the great shifts...

Second instance, my married boss saw me shooting pool with a few friends at a local pub, insisted on driving me home, and then tried to put the moves on me... I did not go for it, my shifts got cut down to 2 a week

Third instance, I was bartending at the local country club golf resort. My manager flirted with several of us, but the one that went for it got all the perks of being the one that was banging the guy that makes the schedule....

Sexual harassment is not always so obvious, nor is it repeated to where one can tape it. Are women supposed to tape every conversation just in case the boss offers them perks for sex? Is it acceptable to give the girl that is blowing you better shifts, meaning they get the good wages? Those who turn you down get punished?

That is the epitome of the damage of sexual harassment.

You are a sharp gal and guys are pretty dumb....Especially when the blood is crammed into their dicks.

All you had to do is pick up the conversation. mention that you would love to get it on. Then mention in passing that you would like some better shifts...If he bites it's on. You own the diner. You sluts are a manipulative lot. Use your skills...guys are pretty fucking dumb.

You walk away you are in fact allowing the conduct to continue. leaving it for the next woman to pick up the ball and fight the good fight.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 11:38:12 AM

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fast reply

wages are not the only place the treatment of women needs to be remedied... it costs us more for health insurance. Less money is spent on issues revolving around woman's health then men's health. Men are more studied when it comes to health problems that impact both sexes, such as heart disease and high blood pressure, even though the treatment and symptoms for treating these diseases vary between the sexes...

We still have work to do in this country with the issue of violence against women in this country, also...

But these issues impact men as well. Men are negatively impacted when the women they love die because diseases that they suffer from are not researched. Men are impacted when they have to pay higher premiums on health insurance for their pregnant wife. Men are impacted when their daughters are the victims of domestic violence...

We don't have to be adversaries in advocating for issues that really impact all of us on many levels

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 11:41:58 AM

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quote:

You walk away you are in fact allowing the conduct to continue. leaving it for the next woman to pick up the ball and fight the good fight.

Tell that to my kid that needed a roof over his head and food in his tummy... "oh mommy is fighting the good fight... you can eat that"

Seriously, blaming the victim is a complete bullshit thing to do, and yes, in this circumstance I was disempowered, although it must be nice to have so many choices that you can seriously not see it when others have very few

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 11:46:54 AM

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It's good to be the king!

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 12:16:45 PM

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PISS BOY!!!!!!

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 12:25:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It's good to be the king!

It is nice to be queen, meaning I don't get pushed around anymore due to my age and economic status and lack of knowledge about how to combat people who do me wrong....

Women who suffer from sexual harassment are not only harassed due to their "hotness", but what men perceive to be their naivety, and outward "submissive" qualities... meaning those who are the most ill suited to fight sexual assault of any sort are those who are most targeted for it..

Being targeted may have a common denominator (meaning that I was a passive young woman with few options, lots of bills to pay, small skillset, and a trait common to young women, passive... but those traits are not character flaws)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 12:33:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Agreed NG. I do believe that most feminists would find the use of the picture as a lure to be actually dishonorable and contrary to the tenants of feminism.

That having been said, I think one can have feminist beliefs and not follow all the teachings and ideals that the entire philosophy embodies.

I have found that when people say I am a feminist it can mean a variety of different things.

Yes...I can't find much room for argument in the above....except that the core principles (as opposed to the periphery) have to be present in order to conform to a movement/ideology.

So....I've said my piece...and there ain't much else to go at without repeating myself.

Best of luck and all that.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 1:01:58 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

No one seems to think I need to change any part of myself, and that's making life look like it might be a lot simpler than my brain has made it. Thanks a lot, brain...

You know what juju who cares. Ultimately the decision as to whether or not there are things you need to change is up to you. We can give our opinions til the cows come home, you are the only one who knows you and what you do/don't need to change. That said overthinking things is doing you no favors.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 1:07:52 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

Yes, of course we have a better life here, but do not discount what is still happening. In business, the old boys club still rules and if you think otherwise, you are sadly mistaken. Especially in certain fields, it still runs rampant.

Of course, which is why I said there are still changes to be made. In the good news dept the McGill University here in Montreal is going to be graduating the largest class of FEMALE doctors in the history of the school. The ratio of female-male residents is unprecidented.

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(in reply to sexyred1)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 1:11:58 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Yes, of course we have a better life here, but do not discount what is still happening. In business, the old boys club still rules and if you think otherwise, you are sadly mistaken. Especially in certain fields, it still runs rampant.

This is true..

Although it has been slightly more than a decade ago, I had been the victim of sexual harassment from three different employers... starting when I was 26... I was a young single mom and if I would have attempted to sue I probably wouldn't have been successful, and I would have been blackballed in the area from getting further employment. I made the choice three times to get a new job. The women who were willing to bang management, well they got better shifts, etc...

quote:

Yes, of course we have a better life here, but do not discount what is still happening. In business, the old boys club still rules and if you think otherwise, you are sadly mistaken. Especially in certain fields, it still runs rampant.

And women not making a fuss is exactly what they count on. As long as women don't stand up to them nothing is going to change. I'm not saying it's easy but it needs to happen.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 1:40:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

I am a feminist. What I mean by feminism isn't hugely important, except that I am the kind of feminist who is mad when men are misogynistic (outside of consensual BDSM contexts) and wants vanilla couples to go down on each other a roughly equal amount :) I have two moms who have always been my version of the ideal couple: completely equal, no gender roles, both talented at different things but sharing in most responsibilities. Feminism and powerful women have been an important part of my life for as long as I can remember.

What I really want to do is figure out how to reconcile (truly reconcile - not abandon) all of that with my desire to submit to a man and serve him, frequently in degrading, objectifying ways. So really truly seriously, does anyone know how to do that? Any feminists in the house?

Why reconcile them? The rigid dichotomy in your mind may in fact enhance your pleasure in submission/degradation. Feminism gives you the right to choose your way of life while still having equal social value to men. Add on to that the fact that submission—good submission, that is—requires talent and a certain form of power in its own right.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 3:45:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

All men are pigs.

Too bad we own everything.

Hahahaha!

For once, I was not drinking something when I snorted. Thank gawd.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 3:47:44 PM

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As much as it pains me to do it, in many ways I have to agree with domi. At the same time, there is a lot more to the reasons why lawsuits against employers are not filed in the food and beverage industry, and any other job where the income is barely above or at the poverty level.

Yes, you had a child to feed and as such made a choice. The choice that worked best for you. No one should try to make you feel bad about that. Sometimes the choice we are forced to make may not be the "right" choice in terms of resolving a recurring issue, but it is the "right" choice for the individual involved at that time.

The issue with those types of lawsuits is that while there is a certain degree of "pain and suffering" that could conceivably be won, the majority of the suit tends to be about lost wages. These case are not typically contingency cases so there are fees and retainers that the Plaintiff will need to pay just to initiate the suit. During the time the suit is pending, the Plaintiff still needs to earn a living and typically will find another job. So much for those lost wages, plus if in a tip based industry, you better have some really indisputable documentation about how much you were making in tips.

It's easy to assume that sexual harassment suits, or any unfair employment based lawsuit can bring on a major windfall, but that just isn't the way it really works. Yes we hear about these kinds of things in higher waged positions or when some woman goes public (like the chick at the bank claiming she was fired for her looks), but these are not easy cases to prove.

In the situations that you describe that you went through, the only way a lawsuit would have done anything would have been if all the women had joined forces to affect change. I don't think that employers count on women being passive as much as they count on the need for the job, especially those types of positions. Those are typically held by young women, often single mothers who need to be able to take care of their kids. It takes a very special series of circumstances to allow one young single mother the ability to choose to fight, and those circumstances would have to include a way that her family suffered the least.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 4:33:15 PM

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FR

What about the woman who chooses to fuck the boss for her own gain, thereby perpetuating the cycle? Is she a feminist too?

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 5:05:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

FR

What about the woman who chooses to fuck the boss for her own gain, thereby perpetuating the cycle? Is she a feminist too?

She may be a feminist but that doesn't make her any less than scum who fucks to get ahead. It's a shame that you can't see the difference, perhaps if you took your head out of your ass instead of trying to impress everyone with how intelligent you think you are, you would be better off. Of course that would be like asking a dog to stop licking his balls.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 5:08:50 PM

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You are a class act that every woman should aspire to. I've disagreed with you but I don't think I've attacked your character, just your ideas. Don't you have a better argument than that?

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