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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 5:49:25 PM

Jeffff

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Wow... sexyred just pointed out that plasticine was beaten by a girl!

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 5:50:10 PM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Every woman who makes her own decisions based on HER needs is utilizing the choices brought about by feminist ideology because being a feminist is not about marching in protest, going to rallies or burning your bra. It is about accepting and utilizing the choices that someone else got for you by doing those things.

I don't agree with this. I'm not a feminist. I don't want to be associated with the ideology. I don't think the majority of feminists I've known in real life, not in text, are nearly as general as you state. I've seen some radical concepts and ridiculous ideology from local feminists. They have actually been detrimental in my work place, not remotely close to helpful. It's created a situation where I have MORE to overcome.

I make my own choices based on my needs. It doesn't make me a feminist.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 5:56:51 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

I don't agree with this. I'm not a feminist. I don't want to be associated with the ideology. I don't think the majority of feminists are nearly as general as you state. I've seen some radical concepts and ridiculous ideology from local feminists. They have actually been detrimental in my work place, not remotely close to helpful. It's created a situation where I have MORE to overcome.

I make my own choices based on my needs. It doesn't make me a feminist.

I used to think this, until a man educated me about feminism as it has evolved(yeah, I was with someone that studied feminism in grad school). It has evolved. I do not know who your local feminists are, but they aren't "feminism"... which at its core is an ideology that promotes equality for all genders, even transgenders... It is an ideology that wants to promote healthy women and children and families...

There were some strains or theoretical frameworks that were radical, but most radical feminists have seen the movement pass them by because younger women are the ones that carry the movement forward...Now just because you do not know about the different parts of the feminist movement doesn't mean that you are not living in a way that they fought for you to have the right to do...It does not mean that you aren't spouting the same ideals they do...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/6/2010 5:57:38 PM >

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 5:58:43 PM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The point is that why are women put in the position to make such choices?

This is the "feminist" question... the feminist position looks at the why these choices are made to begin with...

I think women should be able to be prostitutes if they like that work. I think they shouldn't be bribed into prostitution... see the difference?

Yes I do see the difference...to a degree...obviously there are prostitutes who aren't able to make a living any other way, sorta like waitressing, nobody really seeks it out as a career, they just do it because they need the money.

Then again if I were a guy and I could choose between hiring the girl who does her job or hiring the girl who does her job AND sleeps with me, the choice is kinda obvious. It's totally exploitation but life is cruel and brutal sometimes. I don't know what else to say.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 6:00:00 PM

Elisabella

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I don't agree with this. I'm not a feminist. I don't want to be associated with the ideology. I don't think the majority of feminists I've known in real life, not in text, are nearly as general as you state. I've seen some radical concepts and ridiculous ideology from local feminists. They have actually been detrimental in my work place, not remotely close to helpful. It's created a situation where I have MORE to overcome.

I make my own choices based on my needs. It doesn't make me a feminist.

This exactly.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 6:01:18 PM

juliaoceania

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fast reply

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism

Third-wave feminism is a term identified with several diverse strains of feminist activity and study from 1990 to the present. The movement arose as a response to the failures of and backlash against initiatives and movements created by second-wave feminism of c. 1960s through the 1970s and the realization that "women" are of "many colors, ethnicities, nationalities, religions and cultural backgrounds".[1] The third wave embraces contradictions and conflict, and accommodates diversity and change.[1] There is, in this wave, no all-encompassing single feminist idea.[1]

Third-wave feminism seeks to challenge or avoid what it deems the second wave's "essentialist" definitions of femininity, which often assumed a universal female identity and over-emphasized experiences of upper middle class white women. A post-structuralist interpretation of gender and sexuality is central to third wave ideology. Emphasizing discursive power and the ambiguity of gender, third-wave theory usually incorporates elements of queer theory; anti-racism and women-of-color consciousness; womanism; post-colonial theory; critical theory; postmodernism; transnationalism; ecofeminism; libertarian feminism; new feminist theory, transgender politics and a rejection of the gender binary. Also considered part of the third wave is sex-positivity, a celebration of sexuality as a positive aspect of life, with broader definitions of what sex means and what oppression and empowerment may mean in the context of sex. For example, many third-wave feminists have reconsidered oppositions to pornography and sex work of the second wave and challenge existing beliefs that participants in pornography and sex work cannot be empowered[2].
Third-wave feminists such as Elle Green often focus on "micro-politics" and challenge the second wave's paradigm as to what is, or is not, good for women.[3][4][5][6]

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/6/2010 6:02:06 PM >

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 6:02:12 PM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I don't agree with this. I'm not a feminist. I don't want to be associated with the ideology. I don't think the majority of feminists are nearly as general as you state. I've seen some radical concepts and ridiculous ideology from local feminists. They have actually been detrimental in my work place, not remotely close to helpful. It's created a situation where I have MORE to overcome.

I make my own choices based on my needs. It doesn't make me a feminist.

I used to think this, until a man educated me about feminism as it has evolved(yeah, I was with someone that studied feminism in grad school). It has evolved. I do not know who your local feminists are, but they aren't "feminism"... which at its core is an ideology that promotes equality for all genders, even transgenders... It is an ideology that wants to promote healthy women and children and families...

There were some strains or theoretical frameworks that were radical, but most radical feminists have seen the movement pass them by because younger women are the ones that carry the movement forward...Now just because you do not know about the different parts of the feminist movement doesn't mean that you are not living in a way that they fought for you to have the right to do...It does not mean that you aren't spouting the same ideals they do...

I cannot change the lunatic fringe in my community. I don't want to, I have better things to do.

I can work in my field to promote healthy women, children, families AND MEN, fathers and EVERYONE, without doing it on a basis of gender.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 6:04:05 PM

juliaoceania

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Please read my last post... it is the way feminism is talked about in my reality... which in my grad program this is the way feminism is discussed...

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 6:08:16 PM

laurell3

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Julia,

No offense, but I went to grad school too...I don't need wikipedia to explain it.

It doesn't change my opinion or MY reality. Yours can be different and I will let you happily have your opinion without trying to change it.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 6:12:55 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Julia,

No offense, but I went to grad school too...I don't need wikipedia to explain it.

It doesn't change my opinion or MY reality. Yours can be different and I will let you happily have your opinion without trying to change it.

So you get to define an entire movement based upon your personal experience with a few women that hold on to a paternalistic view of what feminism is...isn't it ironic, we often become that which we say we oppose... you oppose being defined a "feminist" because they are "radical", and yet, you are closed off from learning anything new that happened in that movement since probably 1989...

What I have read on this thread is a buncha people that are debating the feminism of 1975, not the feminism of 2010.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 6:14:23 PM

LadyHibiscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Julia,

No offense, but I went to grad school too...I don't need wikipedia to explain it.

It doesn't change my opinion or MY reality. Yours can be different and I will let you happily have your opinion without trying to change it.

So you get to define an entire movement based upon your personal experience with a few women that hold on to a paternalistic view of what feminism is...isn't it ironic, we often become that which we say we oppose... you oppose being defined a "feminist" because they are "radical", and yet, you are closed off from learning anything new that happened in that movement since probably 1989...

What I have read on this thread is a buncha people that are debating the feminism of 1975, not the feminism of 2010.

Somewhere in the archives is a thread I started last year (?) called Are You A Feminist? It was absolutely chilling.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 6:16:04 PM

juliaoceania

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Yeah, Sinergy was posted in length on a feminism thread...same story then too... I remember watching him type and telling him "people don't want to challenge what they think they know, you are wasting your typing"

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 6:53:08 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMBWhat I really want to do is figure out how to reconcile (truly reconcile - not abandon) all of that with my desire to submit to a man and serve him, frequently in degrading, objectifying ways. So really truly seriously, does anyone know how to do that? Any feminists in the house?

Why do you even need to reconcile the true sides? You could, alternatively, just learn to enjoy the rubbing of those two sides against each other. That's what I do with my sub and vanilla sides. It's fun once you get into it!

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 7:23:16 PM

LafayetteLady

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Thank you julia for responding in such a clear, concise way that I don't need to repeat what you said.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 7:26:46 PM

laurell3

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nm...You have mail julia

Without engaging in a ridiculous insulting flamethrowing debate, which I find unintelligent and unhelpful:

My opinions are not based on radicals only. That comment was addressed to the presumption that feminism is the same for all. Nothing is the same for all. I do know what feminism is. I support those of you that identify with it. I do not personally. I do not feel that identifying with any movement that focuses on gender is helpful for me personally. It's not a belief that I need challenged. I know my own personal reality. No one else here does.

And with that, I am out.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 7/6/2010 7:56:43 PM >

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 7:41:22 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Julia,

No offense, but I went to grad school too...I don't need wikipedia to explain it.

It doesn't change my opinion or MY reality. Yours can be different and I will let you happily have your opinion without trying to change it.

So you get to define an entire movement based upon your personal experience with a few women that hold on to a paternalistic view of what feminism is...isn't it ironic, we often become that which we say we oppose... you oppose being defined a "feminist" because they are "radical", and yet, you are closed off from learning anything new that happened in that movement since probably 1989...

What I have read on this thread is a buncha people that are debating the feminism of 1975, not the feminism of 2010.

Julia,

I said that pages ago. The radical feminism of years ago is not the feminism of today, but along with not wanting to find out what has happened since 1975, the concept that "ignorance is bliss" will continue to be the prevalent thought for those people. In their minds, they went to school, that was all the opening of their minds that was going to occur. They're done now.

I've concluded that rather than try to educate those who think they already know everything, it is better to just thank whoever it is that you pray to that they don't live nearby.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 7:57:37 PM

JstAnotherSub

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I am confused. It happens a lot.

My question is to LL regarding the last comment about

quote:

I said that pages ago. The radical feminism of years ago is not the feminism of today, but along with not wanting to find out what has happened since 1975, the concept that "ignorance is bliss" will continue to be the prevalent thought for those people. In their minds, they went to school, that was all the opening of their minds that was going to occur. They're done now.

I've concluded that rather than try to educate those who think they already know everything, it is better to just thank whoever it is that you pray to that they don't live nearby.

How do you justify calling someone ignorant, when they base their thoughts on their experiences?

I know nothing about that stuff to do with the 3rd wave of feminists and hell. I am good with that. I live as I choose, I do my best to treat everyone I come in contact with like I would want to be treated. And I consider my self to be in favor of fairness for all humans. I guess that makes me a feminist, who the hell knows.

Thing is, at some point, we have to look forward instead of back, and know that life will never be perfect for any of us, cause some people suck. To me, it seems that in 2010, anyone can be anything if they work hard towards a goal. Men, women, blacks, whites, midgets, 1 legged rednecks or yankees with warts on the end of their nose.

We all have it good today, if we want to reach out and grab it.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 8:08:37 PM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Julia,

No offense, but I went to grad school too...I don't need wikipedia to explain it.

It doesn't change my opinion or MY reality. Yours can be different and I will let you happily have your opinion without trying to change it.

So you get to define an entire movement based upon your personal experience with a few women that hold on to a paternalistic view of what feminism is...isn't it ironic, we often become that which we say we oppose... you oppose being defined a "feminist" because they are "radical", and yet, you are closed off from learning anything new that happened in that movement since probably 1989...

What I have read on this thread is a buncha people that are debating the feminism of 1975, not the feminism of 2010.

Julia,

I said that pages ago. The radical feminism of years ago is not the feminism of today, but along with not wanting to find out what has happened since 1975, the concept that "ignorance is bliss" will continue to be the prevalent thought for those people. In their minds, they went to school, that was all the opening of their minds that was going to occur. They're done now.

I've concluded that rather than try to educate those who think they already know everything, it is better to just thank whoever it is that you pray to that they don't live nearby.

Really? You find this intelligent debate?

You have not one clue of knowing anything about me period. You would be amazed. I use that education to further other people's lives, not throw out theories and start granstanding self-important arguments on the internet.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 8:11:58 PM

jujubeeMB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
Have I missed anything?

No, that was brilliant.

Everyone else, I'm loving the debate - it's totally fascinating - just please don't get overexcited and get my thread deleted. That's all I ask

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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/6/2010 8:19:16 PM

JstAnotherSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

snip

Everyone else, I'm loving the debate - it's totally fascinating - just please don't get overexcited and get my thread deleted. That's all I ask

Please tell me that is sarcasm....I mean theres a smiley there, so I think it is.