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RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:20:18 AM

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Joined: 6/9/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque
How can you hold both views at the same time, and which is the one you think is unpopular, within BDSM? The one where everyone is everything, or the one where being dominant is masculine and being submissive is feminine?

Actually, I'm beginning to think that what you're trying to say is that in archetypal language, certain traits are considered masculine and feminine. But don't you see how this biases everything else you believe about males and females? How can you find females equal in potential power to males, if the very term "Feminine" means "Submissive," to you?

It seems to me that you are hung up on either dominance or submission being somehow better than the other. They are completely equal and opposite. That is where I am coming from. Submission is every bit as powerful. In fact even when dominating a situation it is often wise to choose moments of submission to others in order to gain trust and sympathy. They are both extremely powerful things to do. It is only when a person chooses to do neither that they are weak.

ED: I also say that at least two women have emailed me expressing appreciation for my thoughts here in the last two hours. I wonder why they didn't want to post in the thread, hrm....

< Message edited by Plasticine -- 7/4/2010 6:24:35 AM >

(in reply to MadameMarque)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:32:41 AM

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Joined: 1/15/2006
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AH HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have lost face!

You used the lame ' people have emailed me to agree with me!'

Shame shame. Now no one of substance will EVER take anything you write here as credible.

Seriously dude, if that is the very best way you can come up with to cop a 'win', you need to rethink your debate skills.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Plasticine)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:35:49 AM

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
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Dude... that IS the lamest.

Anyone can claim anything.

Just this morning I got 3 emails from people who know Lat personally

They all said she wants to be mine but she is afraid to take the first step.

It's ok My little June bug, come and sit on my lap.

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 7/4/2010 6:37:24 AM >

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:37:48 AM

Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

AH HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have lost face!

You used the lame ' people have emailed me to agree with me!'

Shame shame. Now no one of substance will EVER take anything you write here as credible.

Seriously dude, if that is the very best way you can come up with to cop a 'win', you need to rethink your debate skills.

I don't need to use that, people have agreed with me in this thread also. My point was that these particular women are afraid to post their opinions here because they don't want to be the targets of the heat that I am shouldering to express this view in the first place. You used the lame "You are officially ostracized, neener neener", what does that say about you? Just looking for a bandwagon to jump on?

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:37:51 AM

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

I did not say that women do not consider these issues. I would never say that. I think women are forced to consider these issues an a daily basis until the do make peace with them. I am in no way being deprecating, and I'm sincerely sorry if it reads that way. But I can assure you that these are not opinions pulled out of my ass, they are confirmed by quality social scientists and marriage counselors everywhere. The opinions expressed on here by women on feminism are the exact sort of opinions that a woman should have. Thats wonderful... but it in no way addresses the many women who aren't quite comfortable arriving at those same conclusions even if it would be best for them. FWIW the princess metaphor was not mine, nor would I have selected it as I am talking about doctors, attorneys and business women as well.

Really? And have these "quality" social scientists and marriage counselors posted in reputable journals somewhere that you might be abe to cite? Because I have yet to meet one social scientist or marriage counselor who would ever make such foolish statements.

You seem to be woefully misinformed and desperate to bring forth your opinions as fact. Even your statement that you are believe in feminism when you follow it up with some of the most ridiculously chauvenistic statements I have ever heard outside of a Harlequin Romance novel are making me laugh so hard this early in the morning.

You seem intent on derailing this thread with your notions. Your first post was only mildly off track, you then went off on a wild tangent that had absolutely nothing to do with feminism, consider you make a point of saying you aren't talking about actual genders.

(in reply to Plasticine)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:40:13 AM

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

AH HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have lost face!

You used the lame ' people have emailed me to agree with me!'

Shame shame. Now no one of substance will EVER take anything you write here as credible.

Seriously dude, if that is the very best way you can come up with to cop a 'win', you need to rethink your debate skills.

I don't need to use that, people have agreed with me in this thread also. My point was that these particular women are afraid to post their opinions here because they don't want to be the targets of the heat that I am shouldering to express this view in the first place. You used the lame "You are officially ostracized, neener neener", what does that say about you? Just looking for a bandwagon to jump on?

Then guess what, they aren't welcome. Such delicate little flowers they can not present and defend a position?

They need a big strong man to do it for them?

blaaaaaaaaaa

pussies

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Plasticine)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:40:51 AM

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Which feminists would these be? I don't know any feminists who think this way at all?

It seems they would be the feminists whom you don't know? Just a wild stab in the dark.

I've quoted one such feminist for you......probably the most visible feminist of the 20th century.....who penned arguably the most significant feminist text of the 20th century.

There are a lot of women who would and do argue that choosing to submit to a man is anti-feminism because......in their view......it is done through the intangible social constraints and influences that lead to that decision. And if you're in any doubt then google it and you'll find a whole raft of essays and the like written by feminists who follow this line of thinking.

Anyone claiming that the feminism is defined solely by the freedom to choose.....whatever that choice is......is simply misleading the OP. Now this is entirely different to objecting to the OP defining feminism as she sees fit.....her call....I'm just adding a few thoughts....and one of those thoughts is that feminism...as defined by intellectuals and these ideas have channelled through to the wider populace....is most certainly defined by more than the freedom to choose.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:41:44 AM

Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
Then guess what, they aren't welcome. Such delicate little flowers they can not present and defend a position?

They need a big strong man to do it for them?

blaaaaaaaaaa

pussies

Awesome.

(in reply to Jeffff)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:41:48 AM

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

AH HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have lost face!

You used the lame ' people have emailed me to agree with me!'

Shame shame. Now no one of substance will EVER take anything you write here as credible.

Seriously dude, if that is the very best way you can come up with to cop a 'win', you need to rethink your debate skills.

I don't need to use that, people have agreed with me in this thread also. My point was that these particular women are afraid to post their opinions here because they don't want to be the targets of the heat that I am shouldering to express this view in the first place. You used the lame "You are officially ostracized, neener neener", what does that say about you? Just looking for a bandwagon to jump on?

Oh for fucksake. It means I have a faaaaaaaaaaaaabulous sense of humour and you do not. Get over your insecure self.

Of course there are women that agree with you! I know of one, that has participate on this thread, that does. She is even far more skilled at arguing her point of view than you are at arguing yours. Do you think this is the first time this topic has come up???

Just because people agree with you does not make you right. It simply means there are people that agree with you. For them, you are correct. What people are trying to tell you and you are failing to understand, is that your truth is not everyone else's truth.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/4/2010 6:43:56 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Plasticine)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:42:58 AM

Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Really? And have these "quality" social scientists and marriage counselors posted in reputable journals somewhere that you might be abe to cite? Because I have yet to meet one social scientist or marriage counselor who would ever make such foolish statements.

You seem to be woefully misinformed and desperate to bring forth your opinions as fact. Even your statement that you are believe in feminism when you follow it up with some of the most ridiculously chauvenistic statements I have ever heard outside of a Harlequin Romance novel are making me laugh so hard this early in the morning.

You seem intent on derailing this thread with your notions. Your first post was only mildly off track, you then went off on a wild tangent that had absolutely nothing to do with feminism, consider you make a point of saying you aren't talking about actual genders.

See I've actually stayed completely on topic. The fact that you can't see that is the problem.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:44:35 AM

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Am I the only one who finds it strange that all the deep, intense, philosophical definitions are all given by MEN?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
The opinions expressed on here by women on feminism are the exact sort of opinions that a woman should have.

Now that we have this settled, the next 8 pages can be devoted to back and forth snarking.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:46:09 AM

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

Outstanding...... get then in early before the mods bust it up.

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:49:43 AM

Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Just because people agree with you does not make you right. It simply means there are people that agree with you. For them, you are correct. What people are trying to tell you and you are failing to understand, is that your truth is not everyone else's truth.

I actually have no problem understanding that. And your comment was humorous it just caught me off guard, its not like I swung back hard.

I am rather sure that truth doesn't work in that flexible spandexy kind of way. I think there is always one truth and then a whole shitload of unknowing ignorance. I'm pretty confident that I'm hitting close to the base of the tree in this particular discussion.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:51:02 AM

Posts: 1128
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque
How can you hold both views at the same time, and which is the one you think is unpopular, within BDSM? The one where everyone is everything, or the one where being dominant is masculine and being submissive is feminine?

Actually, I'm beginning to think that what you're trying to say is that in archetypal language, certain traits are considered masculine and feminine. But don't you see how this biases everything else you believe about males and females? How can you find females equal in potential power to males, if the very term "Feminine" means "Submissive," to you?

It seems to me that you are hung up on either dominance or submission being somehow better than the other. They are completely equal and opposite. That is where I am coming from. Submission is every bit as powerful. In fact even when dominating a situation it is often wise to choose moments of submission to others in order to gain trust and sympathy. They are both extremely powerful things to do. It is only when a person chooses to do neither that they are weak.

ED: I also say that at least two women have emailed me expressing appreciation for my thoughts here in the last two hours. I wonder why they didn't want to post in the thread, hrm....

I think I've made it pretty clear that I support jujube and others doing what fulfills them, whether that's being a dominant or a submissive in a consensual situation.

As for females being limited and victimized by being defined as submissive, while males are defined as dominant, yes, I'm hung up on that whole persecution and discrimination thing. That is being forced to nonconsensually submit. I hope you agree, that's bad.

quote:

Submission is every bit as powerful.

Well, no, you are mistaken. Look it up.

From Random House Dictionary:
sub·mis·sive /səbˈmɪsɪv/ Show Spelled[suhb-mis-iv] Show IPA
–adjective
1.inclined or ready to submit; unresistingly or humbly obedient: submissive servants.
2.marked by or indicating submission: a submissive reply.

—Synonyms
1. tractable, compliant, pliant, amenable. 2. passive, resigned, patient, docile, tame, subdued.

and from Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, since you may be interested in that:

sub·mis·sive definition
Pronunciation: /səb-ˈmis-iv/
Function: adj
: characterized by tendencies to yield to the will or authority of others <bullying usually involves a stronger, more dominant personality coercing a weaker, more submissive personality —S. W. Twemlow et al >

Even in a consensual BDSM relationship, words such as "dominant" and "submissive" do not lose their meaning.

(in reply to Plasticine)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:51:08 AM

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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Any chance this can remain a reasonable discussion......with points being discussed....rather than it turning into a shambolic tit-for-tat cycle of verbal violence? Is it possible?

Come on lads and lasses.....a bit of order and we may all get a thank you from the OP for giving her food for thought.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Jeffff)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:51:51 AM

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

I am rather sure that truth doesn't work in that flexible spandexy kind of way. I think there is always one truth and then a whole shitload of unknowing ignorance. I'm pretty confident that I'm hitting close to the base of the tree in this particular discussion.

IMO truth is different from fact. Fact is objective, it exists without perception.

Truth is 9 times out of ten a product of perception.

(in reply to Plasticine)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:54:18 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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From: The Great Frozen North
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Any chance this can remain a reasonable discussion......with points being discussed....rather than it turning into a shambolic tit-for-tat cycle of verbal violence? Is it possible?

Come on lads and lasses.....a bit of order and we may all get a thank you from the OP for giving her food for thought.

Agreed. It would be great if this thread didn't disintegrate into the same mess the last thread on feminism became.

_____________________________

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The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:57:47 AM

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Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Just because people agree with you does not make you right. It simply means there are people that agree with you. For them, you are correct. What people are trying to tell you and you are failing to understand, is that your truth is not everyone else's truth.

I actually have no problem understanding that. And your comment was humorous it just caught me off guard, its not like I swung back hard.

I am rather sure that truth doesn't work in that flexible spandexy kind of way. I think there is always one truth and then a whole shitload of unknowing ignorance. I'm pretty confident that I'm hitting close to the base of the tree in this particular discussion.

I am very confident that truth does work in a flexible spandexy sort of way when it comes to human nature. If you are going to try and build nice neat little black and white boxes and fit everyone you meet into one, you will have a lifetime of frustrations. Because things 'are' except when they 'are not'.

So you can be as confident as you wish, yet you will in your life meet a HUGE number of people that will not fit the norms you have created in your mind. I guaranfuckintee it.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Plasticine)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:59:52 AM

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Joined: 8/9/2007
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Right on, LaT. Perception vs. Reality, the ongoing debate....

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:59:58 AM

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

See I've actually stayed completely on topic. The fact that you can't see that is the problem.

Actually you haven't. The OP did not ask you to define feminism for her. She was trying to reconcile her feminist beliefs with her sexual desires. That really has nothing to do with her secretly wishing some big strong man would come and save her or any of the other nonsense that you posted.

The fact that you say you have received emails from women too afraid to post this thread supports you point is meaningless. Women who would support you are the same women who are on here looking for that big strong man to come and rescue them. With all the background you claim to have, and all your "warm readings" you can't figure that out. Sad really.

(in reply to Plasticine)

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