Collarchat.com

Join Our Community		 Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

RE: Feminism and submission


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Feminism and submission Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:27:17 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

Some femininity does, some masculinity wants to surrender to femininity.  There are innate differences between the sexes, but it's not about who is in control, it's more about how they are in control.



Feminism is not about control.

(in reply to Nineveh)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:27:20 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine



I realize that this is an unpopular view within BDSM... but ask a sociologist or a psychiatrist and you may find that there is a compelling argument there.



I'd rather ask the people who 'do' than the people who sit around and pontificate about it.

Myo (100% masochist and submissive within a relationship, with 3 university degrees)


edited for clarity

< Message edited by myotherself -- 7/4/2010 5:31:57 AM >

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk


(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:28:38 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

If it were, then all femdoms would be suffering the penis envy Freud loved to spout off about


So is it just a coincidence that femdoms incorporate strap-on play and forced cross-dressing a lot more than femsubs do?

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:31:32 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Am I the only one who finds it strange that all the deep, intense, philosophical definitions are all given by MEN?


am I the only that thinks that plasticine and submissivemale22 act exactly the same?


The OP didn't give HER definition of feminism except with regard to misogynistic activities possibly being contrary to it.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 7/4/2010 5:33:51 AM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:33:25 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3



am I the only that thinks that plasticine and submissivemale22 act exactly the same?




_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk


(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:34:18 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

I think I understand what you are getting at but you are mincing words in my opinion.  What I think you mean is that some men are feminine and desire to surrender to masculine women, and conversely some masculine women wish to dominate submissive men.  Which is great and fine by me.  Those people should absolutely seek each other and their own mutual satisfaction.  I do not speak of these things in terms of actual gender, I was speaking archetypally.



Really, you may think you are a feminist, but you have some very antiquated ideas about women. I can't believe you are actually calling femdoms "masculine" women, and the submissive males "feminine."

You can't speak of feminism and not look at actual gender. If you do, you are having a completely different conversation.

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:34:40 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

Some femininity does, some masculinity wants to surrender to femininity.  There are innate differences between the sexes, but it's not about who is in control, it's more about how they are in control.



Feminism is not about control.


To a certain extent it is about control in that it's about women's right to control their own life and what they do with it.

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

Team Troll Trollop
Member: Cocksuckers For World Peace
Charter member: Lance's Fag Hags
Member: Subbie Mafia
Member: Hibbie's Hotties

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:36:31 AM   
Tantriqu


Posts: 2026
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		I'm a Domme, and a humanist, not a feminist. Both sexes should be equal, but aren't in most societies.
Edited to add: For example, you can't be a gorean and a humanist.
As for being a 'feminist' and a submissive: I see no problem if said feminist does not feel submissive to all men, only to her partner.
But it saddens and angers me when a woman feels submissive to most men: Stockholm syndrome.
I have no penis envy, even though I adore strapon play: it's just practical that I can come like a bull from intercourse and not have to worry about pregnancy. And I loathe crossdressing since it mocks the Feminine and again implies inferiority of the female.


< Message edited by Tantriqu -- 7/4/2010 5:43:34 AM >

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:39:13 AM   
MadameMarque


Posts: 1128
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

Ok. So this is an extremely important issue to me and one that I've been avoiding/struggling with/failing directly at since I discovered I was deeply submissive. I have read many, many articles and listened to many Dan Savage podcasts and I cannot figure out how to solve it. I can't believe I haven't thought to ask all of you before, but now I have so here goes:

I am a feminist. What I mean by feminism isn't hugely important, except that I am the kind of feminist who is mad when men are misogynistic (outside of consensual BDSM contexts) and wants vanilla couples to go down on each other a roughly equal amount :) I have two moms who have always been my version of the ideal couple: completely equal, no gender roles, both talented at different things but sharing in most responsibilities. Feminism and powerful women have been an important part of my life for as long as I can remember.

What I really want to do is figure out how to reconcile (truly reconcile - not abandon) all of that with my desire to submit to a man and serve him, frequently in degrading, objectifying ways. So really truly seriously, does anyone know how to do that? Any feminists in the house?


jujubee,

I would urge you to contemplate and discover what you do mean by feminism, as I suggest it really is hugely important to the issue you raise.

You have to know what your values are, before you can contemplate whether what you're doing acts in accord with them.

I would suggest that for a woman to define her own sexuality, and pursue it without shame, and revel in her pleasure, is the height of feminism. The fact that being submissive to a male happens to work for you, and you choose for yourself to do what you want, though it flies in the face of what you're told a feminist is "supposed to do," makes it all the more so!

You know how you can tell who's got the power in any given situation? and you may quote me on this - you can tell by who it is, who is allowed to desire. Notice that one way to gage the degree of oppression upon females, in any culture, is to see how oppressed they are sexually, how they are deprived of any of the joy of sex and sexual choices.

When you say,

quote:


I am the kind of feminist who is mad when men are misogynistic (outside of consensual BDSM contexts) and wants vanilla couples to go down on each other a roughly equal amount :)


- a man being dominant or sadistic in a consensual D/s or BDSM dynamic, hopefully is not misogynistic (showing hatred for females), would you agree? I'm not sure, therefore, how you're using it. Are you talking about "playing" misogynist, in the same sense as people doing consensual race play? Or do you use the word like many of us use the word, "abuse," as what I call "love talk," when we're actually talking about something consensual and hard or rough?

If you mean that when the dominant does all those interesting, awful things to you ( ), you're into a scene where he's doing them to you because you're female, but in reality, he's not mysogynistic, then it really seems to me to be like race play, in that it's hot because it's so sick and wrong and intimate and intense ! but you both know that in reality, the two of you don't believe in the sexism, just as in consensual race play, (at least normally) the partners don't really ascribe to the racism and persecution they're acting out.

If this is the sort of scene you're talking about, it can be a delicate thing to reconcile within yourselves, both you and your partner(s), because so many have a knee-jerk reaction to it. But personally, I would encourage you not to be limited or ruled by other people's should's, but by your own feelings of whether it strengthens you, pleases you, frees you, or whether it leaves a lingering bad feeling.

"It's my life
and I'll do what I want
do what I want, do what I like!
It's my life!"
- from It's My Life, by Wendy O'Williams, theme song to Reform School Girls

< Message edited by MadameMarque -- 7/4/2010 6:24:32 AM >

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:43:49 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Although some feminists would argue that authority is irretrievably bound up with value...because authority suggests a pre-requisite level of knowledge/skills/experience that those who aren't in a position of authority do not hold. So I suppose the OP would have to ponder this before arriving at a conclusion.


Which feminists would these be? I don't know any feminists who think this way at all. Certainly within the workplace there is an assumption that those in management have more skills/knowledge/experience that has put them in that position, but in life? No. Although I do see a significant number of subs who have surrendered to dominants because they don't believe they can make as good of a decision. Not all of them, but quite a few.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:46:56 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

As I said I wasn't talking about men or women.  I was talking about masculine and feminine archetypes which do in fact correlate directly to dominant and submissive archetypes.  The actual gender of the person is irrelevant.



Again, what does that have to do with feminism? Nothing. Feminism is not simply a discussion of traditional gender roles.

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:53:54 AM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Am I the only one who finds it strange that all the deep, intense, philosophical definitions are all given by MEN?


am I the only that thinks that plasticine and submissivemale22 act exactly the same?


The OP didn't give HER definition of feminism except with regard to misogynistic activities possibly being contrary to it.


You know none of the philosophical criticism offends me at all, I expect my idea to be poorly received, but this really does.  I am making no claim that "All women are x" or anything of the sort.  I am simply stating that I have a high degree of empathy for women who are experiencing difficulties reconciling there innermost desires with the cultural messages that they have received.

This phenomenon is not unique to women.  Men have been acculturated to be less aggressive and more complacent which creates a very similar conflict.  This thread was about the feminism conflict though so I didn't mention that part.  Everyone is suffering from this in one way or another, the enlightened few BDSM'ers have simply found an outlet.  For me the question is just how to make that outlet as constructive as possible.

If you think I am pushing some prejudicial agenda you have me sorely mistaken.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 5:56:31 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

Thank you.  You make my point for me as well.  This is absolutely right.  As I initially stated a woman's true social power lies in her femininity, grace and ease.  But that regal princess who inspires obedience, deep in her feminine heart wants more than anything to be taken by a more powerful masculine force.  Ares and Aphrodite, Mars and Venus, etc...  You seem to equate social influence with dominance, I'd say the princess's power comes from her rank and title foremost. Beyond that even she has only her femininity, grace and vulnerability.  A truly regal and manly princess wasn't on your mind was it?



Again the concept that you remotely believe in feminism is amusing. The princess has power only because she has the rank and title? Not because she can actually lead people. She secrety wishes some big strong man would come and take her. It sounds like you read to many trashy romance novels.

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:00:10 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I said "act".

You have mail

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:02:11 AM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Again the concept that you remotely believe in feminism is amusing. The princess has power only because she has the rank and title? Not because she can actually lead people. She secrety wishes some big strong man would come and take her. It sounds like you read to many trashy romance novels.


It sounds like you hate "weak" women.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:04:56 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		The cultural messages I received from birth was that women marry men that will take care of them. Women are subservient to men. Homosexuality is evil.

Imagine the reconciling I got to do!!

As with most things, my inner pendulum swung wildly in the opposite direction. Especially considering that I've yet to meet a man worthy of a good woman's submission in all things. Especially one that really wanted all that comes with a hetro M/s relationship. As much as I like most men and enjoy their company, I still view men as the weaker gender. Given all of that, imagine the difficulty I had in overcoming my revulsion to women submitting to men. Especially men I view as weak or unworthy of that trust of submission. Imagine how difficult it can be for me to keep my big pie hole shut when a women I like, submits to a man I think is a putz.

For me, I had to accept that the feminist point of view is that a woman that is submissive by nature has the right to chose her own life path, that path that works best for HER. That is the true nature of feminism. My pendulum is now much more centred.

The above was stated to show that some of us see the world, the same things, from an entirely different perspective. It is not feminine to submit. That is only the point of view of those who are feminine and are submissive or those that see only a submissive woman as desirable.

Anyone that thinks that ALL feminine women want some big strong handsome man to come save and dominate them......is a fool. A fool thinking inside a very small box.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/4/2010 6:09:20 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:09:06 AM   
MadameMarque


Posts: 1128
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

I think I understand what you are getting at but you are mincing words in my opinion.  What I think you mean is that some men are feminine and desire to surrender to masculine women, and conversely some masculine women wish to dominate submissive men.  Which is great and fine by me.  Those people should absolutely seek each other and their own mutual satisfaction.  I do not speak of these things in terms of actual gender, I was speaking archetypally.



Really, you may think you are a feminist, but you have some very antiquated ideas about women. I can't believe you are actually calling femdoms "masculine" women, and the submissive males "feminine."


LafayetteLady, that is indeed the issue - Plasticine's posts are littered with remarks that equate dominant with masculine and submissive with feminine, quite literally:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
I'm not really looking to take it from all sides here but you seem to be purveying the myth. I am not claiming that straight men are purely masculine, dominant or sadistic, nor that straight women are purely feminine, submissive or masochistic. But the actual psychology is that:

Masculinity = Dominance = Sadism

and

Femininity = Submission = Masochism

I hold that ALL people are sadomasochists, and thus all are a blend of both of these spheres to varying degrees. More intelligent people tend to have more androgynous gender identities and thus be in touch with both, and are thus generally more conflicted about which role to assume.

I realize that this is an unpopular view within BDSM... but ask a sociologist or a psychiatrist and you may find that there is a compelling argument there.


How can you hold both views at the same time, and which is the one you think is unpopular, within BDSM? The one where everyone is everything, or the one where being dominant is masculine and being submissive is feminine?

Actually, I'm beginning to think that what you're trying to say is that in archetypal language, certain traits are considered masculine and feminine. But don't you see how this biases everything else you believe about males and females? How can you find females equal in potential power to males, if the very term "Feminine" means "Submissive," to you?

And to VaguelyCurious, I'm sorry that discussion of this subject is irksome to you, personally. I didn't raise the issue, but I do respond to it being raised. But it actually is germain the OP, extremely so. It goes to the question of whether, by being female and enjoying submission to a male, a woman is proving it true that she's inherently submissive and thereby betraying her feminism. As I hope I've made clear, I do not believe so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
You can't speak of feminism and not look at actual gender. If you do, you are having a completely different conversation.


Exactly.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:09:56 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


For me, I had to accept that the feminist point of view is that a woman that is submissive by nature has the right to chose her own life path, that path that works best for HER. That is the true nature of feminism.





On another thread, that statement would make her a "do me" sub...........:)

You will be MINE!



Ward

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:13:34 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

It's kind of interesting that so far it has been mostly men who have responded with their views on feminism.

What feminism boils down to is a woman having the right to choose her life. The best example I can think of is in the movie "Mona Lisa Smile" with Julia Roberts, Julia Stiles, Maggy Gyllenhal, and I forget the other girl's name. Anyway, at the end of the movie remember how Julia Stiles told Julia Roberts that she was choosing to become a housewife (I think this movie was set in the early 60s)? She wasn't simply accepting a role that others had told her she had to be, she was choosing to do that over going to law school.

So while you are a feminist, you are also a sexual being. You are choosing to be sexually submissive in your relaitonships because it brings YOU pleasure. You don't do it because it brings your dom pleasure (regardless of the fact that it does).

Being a feminist doesn't mean you are being weak or unequal by being submissive. Feminism is about having the right to decide for yourself what you want or don't want without a man (or society) dictating to you what you "should" be or how you "should" act. You aren't submissive to the world, you don't allow the world to humiliate, degrade or objectify you. You allow your partner, under the guideline that YOU set to partake in an activity that brings you pleasure.

Take your current situation with the whole "aftercare" issue. He is telling you how you should feel and act. If you were to allow this, that would go against being a feminist. You aren't doing that. You are saying "this is what I want/need/desire/choose" or however you want to put it and aren't accepting that his way is the way it has to be.

Feminism isn't about having power. It is about being allowed to be who you are without having to apologize for it.


This is almost what I was going to write minus the Julia Roberts film, which I hated. :)

But serious, jujubee, read this again. I was going to say that I was always told women were equal to men growing up and we could do and be whatever and whomever we wanted.

I have known about my sexually submissive urges since I was a kid; and it never for one moment stopped me from doing anything, choosing a profession that was assertive and I never felt bad about myself for wanting to be both respected as a woman and also treated a certain way by a chosen partner in the bedroom.

I always feel badly for women who are conflicted by the concept of feminism, which was supposed to help women but in many ways, ruined things for them.

A smart girl like yourself should already know you hold the power to run your own life according to your own rules. And if that includes being subjugated, humiliated, treated like a fucking whore somedays, that is YOUR power to choose that. It does not make you less respected, it makes you more respected for acknowledging this.

I think in your case, if I can hazard a guess only from the afercare thread, that you are having these conflicting feelings because a particular PERSON is making you question your feelings. I think if you had a man who did all this to you and still made you feel like the wonderful, smart, respected girl you are, you would not be questioning and conflicted.

The ones with no power are the ones who allow society to choose for them or who allow someone to make them feel subjugated without their consent.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Feminism and submission - 7/4/2010 6:18:32 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		From Merriam-Webster.

Main Entry: fem·i·nism
Pronunciation: \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1895
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
— fem·i·nist \-nist\ noun or adjective
— fem·i·nis·tic \ˌfe-mə-ˈnis-tik\ adjective

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Feminism and submission Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.047