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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 11:32:38 AM

dbloomer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I know female, plumbers, electricians, truck drivers, welders, mechanics. If I had it to do again, I would be an electrician. I'm still tempted to learn marine mechanics.

I don't recall ever saying that there are no female electricians, truck drivers, welders or mechanics, so I don't see how this is relevant to the subject at hand.

quote:

Manual labor is not really considered "desirable" work, is it? When the factory was hiring, decades ago, my dad wouldn't get me in because "I didn't send you to college to be a sweathog". Me, I would have been thrilled to be a sweathog, I love fixing things, but he wanted me to be in a profession, not a trade.

I don't understand what the desirability of a job has to do with the point I've illustrated.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 11:39:44 AM

LadyHibiscus

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Dbloomer, your point seems to be that there are male and female jobs, and "gender roles" and we should stick to them. The rest of us are attempting to show that reality speaks otherwise.

I am a lady with arthritis. It would be foolish of me to want to be a longshoreman. However, I would be a good welder, mechanic, CFO, physician, or any number of other things. Very few jobs REQUIRE brute force. Those jobs that do require such are not tremendously popular. There is a reason that homeless folk, illegals, and unemployed men line up for daily pick-up work---because ditch digging does not require much education or skill. That doesn't mean that the work is unworthy, only that there are more forces at work for choosing it than owning a penis.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 11:42:25 AM

xssve

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I blame it in Goreans, they're like Randist's, they're opinionated and driven to proselytize way out of proportion to their actual numbers.

Nothing against it, just sayin'.

And, the fact is, working for a living isn't always as rewarding as it may seem, working a job you hate is a lot like... work. I think a lot of women prefer the cocoon, and anti-feminism lends it a patina of respectability, like you're really bucking the trends.

In any case, right wing talk radio provides a steady stream of propaganda in this direction, a multimillion dollar media machine helps.

In any case, social engineering either way is pretty much pissing up a rope here, people adapt to economic conditions because they have to, and women in the workforce help keep wages low, and low wages are typically correlated with low inflation, meaning your big capital formations are pretty happy with women working, and the anti-feminism thing, as media driven phenomena, is largely motivated by the necessity of discouraging women from seeking higher wages and/or management positions.

The usual thing, in other words, the intensity level has just been raised due to the tighter socio-economic conditions - basically, racism has become respectable again for much the same reason, in a competitive situation, most people will take any edge they can, and it often get's ugly.

The irony is always, that all this pucker factor really doesn't have many beneficial economic effects, it's largely diseconomic, and can become, itself, a contractionary force.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 11:48:03 AM

dbloomer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Dbloomer, your point seems to be that there are male and female jobs, and "gender roles" and we should stick to them. The rest of us are attempting to show that reality speaks otherwise.

I said this:

I've provided examples in my previous posts on jobs that are better suited for men. The point of all this isn't that "Men should have a set regimen of tasks, women should have THEIR set regimen of tasks, and that men and women should do what nature designed them to do and nothing else."

earlier. I don't believe men and women should "know their role" and "stick to it". I believe they should realize that nature provides us with PLENTY of examples of how men and women are different, psychologically, physically, and MECHANICALLY, yet we continue to bang this "equality" drum.

It's like trying to say a spoon and a fork are equal, it just isn't true. Feminism tells us it IS true, and sometimes, not ALWAYS, but sometimes, it results in people trying to eat stake with a spoon and eat soup with a fork.

< Message edited by dbloomer -- 7/29/2010 11:52:11 AM >

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 11:56:03 AM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbloomer

Wether or not men enjoy the physically laborious work is unrelated to the fact that they're physically geared to perform them, and it exemplifies one of the many ways men and women are different from eachother.

Being geared for something is moot if no one wants the job. And I believe technology has eliminated many of those positions and the rest are heading overseas. So what does mister "physically geared" do then?

quote:

I also don't think it's fair for you to speak for how or why men select their jobs, and I consider that speculation, not fact.

Much like your postulations or are you oblivious to that?

quote:

People seem to think that because I don't agree with certain aspects of feminism I'm a misogynist which is not fair to me.

Really? I don't remember saying that. Perhaps you've gotten your "people" mixed up.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 11:56:07 AM

dbloomer

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quote:

Absolutely, LaT! One of the great things about threads like this is that folks show their true colours, for good or ill.

I agree completely. It has proven to me that whenever anyone challenges the status quoe they are ostracized ant attacked on a personal level. It's also shown me that the average person is not ready to discuss things in a civilized manner.

Despite the fact that I said on numerous occasions that I'm a proponent for equal rights for men and women, and I've conducted myself in a civil fashion, people here have stooped to calling me a

"prideful man in a pissing contest",

quote:

Frankly the pissing contest to see who is the better poster and who is right reminds me I can wander dawn to the pub and watch continuous pissing contests from half the male population live and in colour which is more fun than watching it on line.....

they've suggested that "I need to learn a lesson from a strong woman from Vancouver", (which sounds dangerously similar to saying "all a woman needs is a strong man to put her in her place)

quote:

Oh how I would dearly LOVE to introduce the two of them. Talk about a gorgeous, hot woman that could educate him.

and that I'm "insecure in my masculinity".

quote:

A little ps......there are a few guys that have posted on this thread, and others like it, that are secure in their masculinity, regardless of kink orientation, M/D/s, and have really impressed me with their well thought out posts. Kudos to them!!!

For people who claim to be proponents of feminism, and subsequently equality, harmony, and understanding, these are all principles you left in your other briefcase when you came to this discussion evidently.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 11:58:07 AM

LaTigresse

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What was your name on here, before you created this profile?

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 12:03:35 PM

dbloomer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Being geared for something is moot if no one wants the job. And I believe technology has eliminated many of those positions and the rest are heading overseas. So what does mister "physically geared" do then?

It is not moot. We live in a world where we have responsibilities that we must tend to, be them fun or un-fun. Not in present day, but perhaps in 20-30 years MANY MANY more tough jobs will be eliminated by technology, but this is all irrelevant when it comes to my point, which is that yes, indeed, despite popular belief, men and women are different, and that different things can not be equal by their very definition. They can have equal rights, but distinguishing the difference between equal rights and being equal is important, lest we rob women of all things that make them feminine and men all things that make them masculine, in persuit of a missunderstood objective.

quote:

Much like your postulations or are you oblivious to that?

Yes, I've made many baseless claims like "Men are physically stronger than women." that CLEARLY have no basis in reality. I've also gone as far as to say strange unbelievable things like "Being physically stronger allows you to perform different tasks than someone who isn't physically stronger". Silly things that can't be proven...

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 12:13:19 PM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbloomer

quote:

You are correct; context is everything.
It is a pity that you have evidently never met the kind of women that were modeled after Heinlein's wife, Virgina.
And apparently you have no idea who Robert Heinlein is either, or your argument would have had more substance.

Respectfully, I seem to be the only one in this thread substantiating my claim, everyone else seems to be stating opinions or, yes, making obscure references to quotes.

My quote is from a male writer who authored over 40 novels. As mentioned many of the women in them were modeled after his wife, Virginia.

You want me to substantiate my claim:

I am trying to do the math here and am guessing that since Ginny Heinlein was born in 1916 that is in the age range of your great-grandmother?

She lettered in 4 sports in college and competed in a 5th on a national level.
She had 2 degrees in chemistry: organic and biochemistry. She met Robert in WWII, after she had enlisted in the WAVES during which time she worked as an aviation test engineer. After the war she went on to study for her doctorate in biochemistry.
She spoke 7 languages, including Russian.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 12:24:24 PM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

is largely motivated by the necessity of discouraging women from seeking higher wages and/or management positions.

Which is precisely why I went into investment banking. I prefer the sink or swim culture.

quote:

The usual thing, in other words, the intensity level has just been raised due to the tighter socio-economic conditions - basically, racism has become respectable again for much the same reason, in a competitive situation, most people will take any edge they can, and it often get's ugly.

And some people need those edges because they can't compete. Oftentimes their belief in a sense of betterment is usually their undoing. You'll always meet someone stronger, more cut throat, with a killer instinct that isn't afraid to step on you in the blink of an eye. This is when the cry babies go running for cover and seeking those privileges they readily denounced as unnecessary. Sexists need the propaganda they promote to secure their position. Ascension is pretty hard without it.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 12:27:36 PM

Yourscum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: realwhiteknight

Yes, that's what I had thought: why was the burden of proof to source my 'opinions' on *me* but not on the opposing debater? That's just obviously skewed.

Your claiming that unskillled laborers can make more than college educated graduates and your upset someone asked you to back that up? Really?

< Message edited by Yourscum -- 7/29/2010 12:28:14 PM >

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 12:35:22 PM

LaTigresse

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ACTually, I know quite a few examples of that.

Myself and those that work for me are a good example. My son has no formal education beyond high school (and that was rather questionable at the time) and he makes more than many college educated people.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 12:48:00 PM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

A little ps......there are a few guys that have posted on this thread, and others like it, that are secure in their masculinity, regardless of kink orientation, M/D/s, and have really impressed me with their well thought out posts. Kudos to them!!!

LaT,

I agree. It's amazing who stands out on both sides.

~porcelaine

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 12:48:10 PM

Jeffff

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I am looking at a Mechanic as I type this.

I happen to know for a fact he made $119,000.00 last year.

Granted he probably worked 60-65 hours a week for it.

He did not go to college.

He is also kinda a dick.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 12:48:55 PM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbloomer

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

The segments of anti feminism has been both enlightening, informative and pleasing to read. Frankly the pissing contest to see who is the better poster and who is right reminds me I can wander dawn to the pub and watch continuous pissing contests from half the male population live and in colour which is more fun than watching it on line..... In generation s past male pride and a good dose of testosterone were essential for survival but sadly those days are past.. Something which appears to gave not been noticed by the few here.. Must have been a cock-up in the notice delivery system..

If you're interested in contributing your point of view I'd be glad to hear it, but I don't take kindly to the suggestion that I'm being a "prideful man in a pissing contest", and a smart gentleman like you must have known I wouldn't.

Really??????? Thank you for granting me permission to posy on this thread after I have already made several posts..... My comment was general but it really hit a soft spot or is that a guilt spot on you did it?? Must have or why else the comment. Never mind, there are others who could claim I was referring to or thinking about them too. There is no way in hell I would bother to add to the pissing contest between you and peon. Other than to say, my experience and observations show me you are both, right and yet wrong also. I suggest you re-read my post and see where I referred to either of you as being prideful men.

quote:

In generation s past male pride and a good dose of testosterone were essential for survival

That was part of a historical observation. Should you, however, choose to take such comments to heart, that is your prerogative of course and you, and you alone can deal with it. I doubt that anyone and certainly I will not refrain from making any comments for fear of treading on toes or hurting feelings. Were I to wish to target a person and rip into them, believe me I have plenty of experience in that too, especially in times past here in CM. I just don't bother these days. So off you toddle and nurse your self hurt manly pride..

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/29/2010 12:52:27 PM >

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 12:57:08 PM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbloomer

It is not moot. We live in a world where we have responsibilities that we must tend to, be them fun or un-fun. Not in present day, but perhaps in 20-30 years MANY MANY more tough jobs will be eliminated by technology, but this is all irrelevant when it comes to my point, which is that yes, indeed, despite popular belief, men and women are different, and that different things can not be equal by their very definition. They can have equal rights, but distinguishing the difference between equal rights and being equal is important, lest we rob women of all things that make them feminine and men all things that make them masculine, in persuit of a missunderstood objective.

It is irrelevant if the 'thing' you're professing he's more equipped to do NO longer exists. They found someone better suited for it. And if you're taking that line I'd say that technology has trumped men in terms of brawn requiring him to rely upon other things save his muscle to survive.

quote:

Yes, I've made many baseless claims like "Men are physically stronger than women." that CLEARLY have no basis in reality. I've also gone as far as to say strange unbelievable things like "Being physically stronger allows you to perform different tasks than someone who isn't physically stronger". Silly things that can't be proven...

As we've shown above computers are stronger than the supposedly 'strongest' of the two and you're being pushed out for a better machine. You can't perform a task that's not available to you irregardless of your physical makeup. Once upon a time man could rely on his physical manpower as a means to support himself but that guarantee has gone bye bye.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 1:04:19 PM

Yourscum

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Oh, well, if one person can do it than cleary that's representative of the majority of the population lol

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 1:14:59 PM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I am looking at a Mechanic as I type this.
I happen to know for a fact he made $119,000.00 last year.
Granted he probably worked 60-65 hours a week for it.
He did not go to college.
He is also kinda a dick.

People get enamored by fancy titles. I showed my daughter an interesting breakdown on salaries in NYC comparing two positions. An entry-level nurse with a bachelors degree in nursing and someone that came out with a background in business, finance, or economics going into investment banking. Both have paper. However...

The nurse walks in the door with a total compensation of $82k. That includes the shift differential (since most work evenings) and the $2k hiring bonus for the BSN degree. She works 13 shifts per month at 12 hours and they are trying to reduce that to 12 days. She gets 30 days vacation and the benefits of hourly pay. Which means overtime at time and a half or double time and half (holidays) plus the shift differential. At one point they were paying a bonus if you worked 3 extra shifts per month due to the shortage in staffing.

Her banking buddy gets $55-65k starting. $10k hiring bonus and $10k yearly bonus. However, he works over 60 hours per week and gets no overtime. His company may provide lunch and a taxi service. He gets roughly 3-4 weeks vacation in the door. He works twice as much as the nurse for relatively the same pay.

When I showed her what he really makes per hour versus the nurse she was shocked. The nurse has the added benefit of finding work with an agency on the side, teaching, and can pursue other avenues. Whereas the analyst is up a creek if he loses his job. He doesn't have the same benefits unless he's made some good contacts in the industry. Burnout is a big issue and most flee to other professions. Consulting is the notable favorite.

Things aren't always as they appear.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 1:26:27 PM

Jeffff

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I went to college, My daughter went to college. I am not here to say it does not pay to go to college.

But it is not for everyone and there are alternatives.

At the end of the day, what matters most is do you hate your life when the alarm goes off.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/29/2010 1:26:33 PM

LaTigresse

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I remember being absolutely shocked when I found out that a married couple, both material handlers aka fork lift operators, made approx $160,000.00 one year (about 15 years ago) working for Square D now Schneider Electric. More than the engineers, more than most of the officer personnel. Yay for the Union. Guaranteed those material handlers had no college education.

Granted, if you live in a major city, that seems pretty normal. But in Cedar Rapids Iowa, at that time, that was BIGASS moola. You could get a VERY nice house in the burbs for $250,000.00 or less. I was probably making about $9 an hour and would have been hard pressed to find something better.

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