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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/30/2010 6:12:47 PM   
Lucienne


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Fast Reply - barely skimmed.


Red dress - thank you.

Peon - still lovely torso deserving of....

/

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/30/2010 6:37:19 PM   
dbloomer


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quote:


we will all make our own decisions about what we want to do with our lives, without consulting the "men/women are better equipped for" guide, thank you very much.


Actually, people look to fashion magazines, television, and advertisement, to tell them who they are. They are extremely subject to influence. Millions and millions of dollars are spent each year on influencing public opinion through advertisement. They do it because it works.

I don't ever remember offering a guide to "men/women/what-they're-equipped for". I do remember saying that expecting homogony between men and women is unrealistic given that men and women are different from one another. Feminism, be it intentionally, or unintentionally, can punish women or make them feel inadequate when they don't wish to be that "large-and-in-charge independent, strong business woman". Feminism can also send the message to men that being an assertive male is a no-no in certain situations. This, incidently, is a view I've received not only through observation but from women communicating it directly to me.

< Message edited by dbloomer -- 7/30/2010 6:40:15 PM >

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/31/2010 8:26:18 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbloomer

I don't ever remember offering a guide to "men/women/what-they're-equipped for". I do remember saying that expecting homogony between men and women is unrealistic given that men and women are different from one another. Feminism, be it intentionally, or unintentionally, can punish women or make them feel inadequate when they don't wish to be that "large-and-in-charge independent, strong business woman".


Women that feel punished do so by choice. Why would the opinions of strangers on how she lives her life factor in at all? That's just another victimization argument in my opinion.

quote:

Feminism can also send the message to men that being an assertive male is a no-no in certain situations. This, incidently, is a view I've received not only through observation but from women communicating it directly to me.


Feminism didn't send that message. He encountered someone with that mentality that may identify themselves as a feminist. The faces of feminism are different because its ideology is being carried out by individuals. You cannot separate the biases and experiences they carried within prior to their exposure to feminism.

~porcelaine


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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/31/2010 8:53:42 AM   
jujubeeMB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbloomer
Feminism, be it intentionally, or unintentionally, can punish women or make them feel inadequate when they don't wish to be that "large-and-in-charge independent, strong business woman". Feminism can also send the message to men that being an assertive male is a no-no in certain situations. This, incidently, is a view I've received not only through observation but from women communicating it directly to me.


No one can make you feel inferior (or inadequate, in this case) without your own consent. What you're observing are women who don't have the self-esteem to be happy being dependent, feminine, stay-at-home women, and so they feel punished/judged/belittled by everyone else. People who are happy and secure in who they are do not feel threatened by what other people are being and doing, and their values are not so flimsy that they can't stand a friendly debate or pointed question. You would not believe how many "how does your family work?" conversations I've had with people who had never encountered someone with two moms before, but I've never minded because I'm very confident in how amazing my family is.

And being an assertive male or female is a no-no in certain situations. Like anything having to do with our social lives, it just depends on the situation. Not the gender. Anyone who tells you a woman can be assertive in a situation where a man can't is just as wrong as anyone telling you a man can be where a woman can't. What are the "certain situations" that you're referring to? I'm curious whether you actually meant "aggressive" rather than "assertive."

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/19/2010 11:18:56 PM   
barrick


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One of the major problems I have with feminism is that it over generalises men to strengthen their hateful agenda. Particularly towards the white male.

Rape stats, domestic violence stats, and most of all, equal pay stats can be misleading at it's best. With the equal pay controversy alone, it's silly to say that most or all male employers are evil discriminators who secretly pay women less for the same job, hours, experiences, qualifications etc.

To lump so many men in the same category in such a faulty premise is sexist within it's self. Some employers may, I am not saying it's non existent. But to say it's happening everywhere is another thing. It's like saying most blacks are this or that or most asians are this or that or women women are this or that. There is no law that has any such ground to pay women less for doing the same as their male counter parts.

I also have a problem with feminism claiming that white males are privileged. Sure, there are a handful of white males who are privileged. But is every white male privileged? Heck, there are many women and blacks who are more privileged than 99 percent of white males. I certainly don't feel privileged over the next woman or black person I walk past on the street.

On the bright side, there is a minority of contemporary feminists who are actually level-headed and logical in the mainstream department. Such as Christina Hoff Sommors and Wendy McElroy.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/19/2010 11:44:25 PM   
literarylady


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I must admit to not reading all of the posts on this subject, but in responding to the OP:

I, myself, had a bias against submissive women for many, many years. Then I learned that I was one. It embarrassed me, to be honest. My mother taught me to never be dependent upon men. She was not radical, just practical. For most women, this is the best choice, quite frankly. However, it is not the choice that fulfills me.

Therefore, I am submissive to a man. I do not think this is gender specific but instead a personality trait found in both genders. Once I began to understand that it was actually my CHOICE to submit, I came to terms with it. Now, I am not so judgmental about anyone's choice, unless, of course, it involves an abusive relationship, which can occur in either vanilla or D/s situations.

I am a staunch feminist. I will always embrace that label with pride.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/19/2010 11:50:36 PM   
barrick


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quote:

I am a staunch feminist. I will always embrace that label with pride.


Why should the term "feminist" exists? If a person is truly concerned about issues of ALL genders, should there be another name? Like "humanist". The term "feminist" seems to be one sided.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/19/2010 11:58:56 PM   
literarylady


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"Feminist" seems one sided because it is. In other words, women, despite what even "liberal" men say, have never had their due in this world. In fact, the prejudice against women is so pervasive that we must designate a separate category to fighting for those rights to make women's voices heard worldwide. I don't need to remind you of those Saudi girls who were burned alive in their own school to placate the mullahs who deemed them too indecent to go outside. I won't bother to recite other chapters and verse.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/20/2010 12:05:19 AM   
barrick


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What happens to women in other parts of the world has nothing to do with men in western societies. Why should we take up that guilt? Women's voices get heard loud and clear in westernised societies. There is no shortage of men who do listen to feminists in these societies. When it comes to gender issues in westernised socities, what is political correctness?

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/20/2010 12:13:16 AM   
literarylady


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Oh, hell...you must be unable to connect the dots. The women of other societies only represent an extreme of ours. Let's imagine Chrissy Hynde being successful in the music business today from the start. Can't imagine it? It's because she doesn't strut and preen for the masses the way Britney Spears has, though I admit she is past her "prime." Women in the Western world are oppressed by the beauty standards brought to you by (ironically) the primarily gay men in the fashion world. If you think that is inconsequential, ask any woman about her weight, and she will either clam up or be self deprecating. Do I need to also cite statistics about women and domestic violence, such as a woman who is pregnant is more likely to be murdered by her partner than any other woman in this country? What does that tell you, Big Daddy? Do some research, my friend.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/20/2010 12:28:00 AM   
barrick


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So you are saying that women who are not super models are not rock stars? haha for example, Tina turner and belinda carlisle are just average looking. But their talent won them their fame. But moving on, let's look at the admiration status to BBW compared to BHM. BIG DIFFERENCE. A male claiming oppression over that would be seen as an idiot.

Besides looks, how much chance does the average male get compared to the average woman? Let's say this site alone for example. Oppression against men? Ha

Domestic violence stats?

http://www.mediaradar.org/research.php#waj

< Message edited by barrick -- 8/20/2010 12:29:28 AM >

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/20/2010 12:39:17 AM   
literarylady


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Stop joking. That is my first response to men who believe that domestic violence against men is a societal problem.

Secondly, it has everything to do with looks for a woman. I am not saying that the same is not true for a man, JUST NOT TO THE SAME DEGREE: Send a 200 lb woman with superior qualifications for the job against one who is 130 and pretty. See what happens, 'tard.

Stop acting like men are oppressed. They aren't.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/20/2010 12:40:48 AM   
literarylady


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BTW, Tina Turner is SMOKIN' hot! Belinda Carlisle...I don't know where you got that one.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/20/2010 12:52:53 AM   
barrick


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quote:

Stop joking. That is my first response to men who believe that domestic violence against men is a societal problem.


Ahahaha. The typical feminist bigot.

quote:

Send a 200 lb woman with superior qualifications for the job against one who is 130 and pretty. See what happens, 'tard


Can you provide proof to this?

quote:

Stop acting like men are oppressed. They aren'


In America alone

Men are:  

99.999% of American combat deaths and casualties (historically)
http://thewall-usa.com/information.asp
http://thewall-usa.com/women.asp
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm

97%+ since the 1st Gulf War (DOD)
http://www.icasualties.org/oif/female.aspx
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm

"The numbers of wounded women and female amputees, meanwhile, are considerably less than their male counterparts--at least 378 wounded versus 17,490; 11 amputees versus over 400--but they are historic for modern day warfare."
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2755/context/archive

A Pentagon study published in March on the mental health of soldiers returning from deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan found that more than one- third of U.S. soldiers received psychological counseling. A statistic buried in the study: 23.6 percent of women reported a mental health concern compared with 18.6 percent of men.
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2755/context/archive

(currently, women are not even required by law to register for selective service, but even retarded or physically disabled men are, in addition to all the healthy ones)

94% of industrial deaths and accident (NIOSH)
(Even though murder is the leading workplace cause of death for women, a statistic often used by gender feminists, that number is only a percentage of the 6% of workplace deaths that women comprise.  In other words, "a fraction of a small fraction.")

Men are:

76% of homicides DOJ
80% of Suicides CDC

# Suicide took the lives of 30,622 people in 2001 (CDC 2004).
# Suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for all U.S. men (Anderson and Smith 2003).
# 24,672 suicide deaths reported among men in 2001.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm
24,672 / 30,622 = .8056952
(or in other words, over 80% of all suicide deaths in 2001 were male)

also:
http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec15/ch205/ch205a.html
"Suicide ranks 11th among causes of death in the US, with 30,622 completed suicides in 2001. It is the 3rd leading cause of death among people 15 to 24 yr. Men ≥ 75 yr have the highest rate of death by suicide. Among all age groups, male deaths by suicide outnumber female deaths by 4:1."


http://www.glennsacks.com/distraught_fathers_courthouse.htm
"The other most common suicide victims are divorced and/or estranged fathers like Derrick Miller. In fact, a divorced father is ten times more likely to commit suicide than a divorced mother, and three times more likely to commit suicide than a married father. According to Los Angeles divorce consultant Jayne Major:
"Divorced men are often devastated by the loss of their children. It's a little known fact that in the United States men initiate only a small number of the divorces involving children. Most of the men I deal with never saw their divorces coming, and they are often treated very unfairly by the family courts.'"

A woman is the party filing for divorce in about 66% of divorce cases.
http://www.pobronson.com/blog/2006/07/will-this-marriage-last-who-wants-out.html
"How often was it that many more of women wanted the divorce more than the men?
2/3. The same as the amount responsible for divorce filings. And yet another study of divorced couples found that the majority of divorced wives and husbands both agreed it was the wife who wanted out.”

Women receive custody in about 84% of child custody cases.

In the spring of 2002, an estimated
13.4 million parents had custody of
21.5 million children under 21 years of
age whose other parent lived somewhere
else. About 5 of every 6 custodial parents
were mothers (84.4 percent) and 1
in 6 were fathers (15.6 percent), proportions
statistically unchanged since 1994
(Table A).
http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-225.pdf

Paternity fraud is rampant in the U.S.
30% of those named as fathers - bilked of child support unjustly
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48871

Of the top fifteen leading causes of death, men lead in 12 categories, are tied in two and trail in one.  Even though more women die of heart disease each year, men die of heart disease many years earlier.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/finaldeaths03_tables.pdf

http://www.sentencingproject.org/Admin/Documents/publications/inc_factsaboutprisons.pdf

The 2006 United States’ rate of incarceration of 751 inmates per 100,000 population is the highest reported rate in the world, well ahead of the Russian rate of 628 per 100,000.

93% of the prison population is male with over 60% having no High School education.   America has now passed Russia as the country that has the largest percentage of its population incarcerated, yet we still claim to be the freest country on earth.

The number of persons on probation and parole has been growing dramatically along with institutional populations. There are now 7.2 million Americans incarcerated or on probation or parole, an increase of more than 290 percent since 1980.


http://www.sentencingproject.org/
205 (and growing) wrongly convicted people have been exonerated by DNA evidence since the beginning of the Innocence Project.

204 of the wrongly convicted were men.

Most of them had charges of rape against them.  
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
As we see in the Duke Lacrosse rape case  fiasco, false accusers are rarely prosecuted and when they are it is only as a misdemeanor (at most), while rape itself is vigorously prosecuted as a felony.

One attorney speaking at premiere for the movie, After Innocence, estimates that there are between 20,000 and 100,000 wrongly convicted still in prison.

We hear a lot about the historical oppression of women's voting rights, but few if any women who were born in the 20th century were every without the right to vote in their lifetime, upon reaching legal voting age.  On the other hand, around 2400 hundred California men (42% of CA men killed in Vietnam) gave their life for their country without being allowed by their country to vote.  The exact number is 2,381.  Four of the twelve Iwo Jimo flag raisers died for their country without their country ever allowing them the right to vote.  
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/a-b/blumhorst/2005/blumhorst052805.htm

http://www.thewall-usa.com/names.asp
"The youngest Vietnam KIA is believed to be Dan Bullock USMC, at 15 years old.
At least 5 men killed in Vietnam were 16 years old.
At least 12 men killed in Vietnam were 17 years old.
There are 120 persons who listed foreign countries as their home of record.
At least 25,000 of those killed were 20 years old or younger.
The oldest man killed was 62 years old."

If you do a full count on all the men in the 20th century who died for their country without being allowed to vote the numbers will be staggering.

In America there are over 270 women's commissions, but only one for men in New Hampshire.

There are over 700 Women's Studies programs on colleges and universities throughout the United States teaching thousands or tens of thousands of classes from the gender feminist perspective, but not one program or class, teaching men's studies from the masculist perspective.

Men are a significant percentage of domestic violence (26% of intimate partner homicides), yet are denied service at most tax payer funded domestic violence shelters. In contrast, women get every veteran's benefit a man does, yet comprise less than 3% of combat deaths or casualties and a woman makes the cover of Time magazine (person of the year/2003 standing in front of two men.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2003/200312225a.jpg

It appears to me American men are routinely treated like 2nd class citizens in their own country.  CDC lists male victims of domestic violence at more than 34%, but men injured in Iraq (and all other men) are by law in California excluded from domestic violence shelter services. They would have a lot of trouble getting in a CA shelter if some evening the little misses puts a frying pan to their head.  Only one shelter in Lancaster, CA accepts men and it has been extensively harassed for doing so.

Someone online pointed out in a post that some people say breast cancer is a greater concern in women than prostate cancer in men based on reported deaths overall.  Are we considering that men today die on average 6 years sooner than women?  I read somewhere that around 1920 the death rates were roughly equal.  The death rates for prostate and breast cancer are similar, but because men die of other things more frequently-accidents ,war, heart disease etc., there are fewer men left to die of prostate cancer.  “This would be akin to saying people from a nation like Zimbabwe are immune to Alzheimer’s- but in fact they die of other things before they can get old enough to contract Alzheimer’s.”

The Socialist/Communist wage gap myth based on the "comparable worth" paradigm:

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/04/23/the-gender-feminist-wage-gap-myth-appears-to-be-growing-legs/

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/04/23/gender-feminist-wage-gap-myth-appears-to-be-growing-legs-part-ii/

Spending Gap:

http://www.amazon.com/Pocketbook-Power-Hearts-Coveted-Consumer/dp/0071418601/sr=1-1/qid=1167804358/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6478055-3977644?ie=UTF8&s=books
or
http://tinyurl.com/sf342
Pocketbook Power: How to Reach the Hearts and Minds of Today's Most Coveted Consumer - Women
Bernice Kanner
From the Back Cover

Not too long ago, legendary adman David Ogilvy chided his peers for talking down to women. He berated those who ignored women or discounted them, misconstruing men's higher paychecks to mean greater spending clout. And he was right. According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, women--who comprise just over 51 percent of the U.S. population, making them the largest consumer segment in the country--control six trillion dollars in buying power annually. Statistics show that:

Women make 88 percent of all U.S. retail purchases. Some experts even predict that, by 2020, women will control most of the money in America.

Women control 88 percent of all purchases.

Women handle 75 percent of family finances. 43 percent of those with assets over $500,000 are women.

One out of every 11 women in America owns a business.

Women influence two out of every three of the 3 trillion dollars spent in the U.S. each year!


Men die on average about 5 years earlier than women, but no compensation is made in the Social Security System's retirement age for this disparity.

Exactly which areas those were, he couldn't say..."
How about equal rights in parenting, domestic violence policies, criminal sentencing, paternity, forced labor, military conscription, public health policies, genital integrity, false accusations, reproductive rights, and equal rights across the board?
'How come you never talk about men? You don't blog about areas where men are underrepresented!' Exactly which areas those were, he couldn't say..."  They also are underrepresented in enrollment on college and university campuses based on their numbers in the general population.

The DVD is entitled, Scottsboro An American Tragedy.
Here is the quote (exactly) I was thinking of:
"The protection of white womanhood, it might be the pivot around all Southern culture. The 5,000 people who are lynched from 1880 to 1940, most of those are cases of black men accused of raping, or sexually assaulting white women." - Robin Kelly, Historian, African-American man
From the back cover of the DVD box:
"In 1931, two white women stepped from a boxcar in Paint Rock, Alabama to make a shocking accusation: they had been raped by nine black teenagers on the train."
and
"- a poor white woman whose lie lends her respectability..."
PBS Home Video
American Experience, a production of WGBH Boston
Academy Award Nominee for Best Documentary
Scottsboro An American Tragedy
The case that sparked the civil rights movement
2001 WGBH Educational Foundation
2005 Artwork PBS

Between 1890 and 1917, two hundred thirty thousand (230,000) railroad workers were killed.  In 1920 there were 2, 000, 000 railroad workers.  One of the most dangerous jobs was "brakeman."  Each car had to be stopped manually and it was the brakeman's job to stop four or five cars.  The brakeman walked on top of the RR cars and turned a wheel, putting the brakes "on" for each car.  It was not unheard of for a brakeman to be thrown from the top of a RR car.

Source:  "Freight Trains," Modern Marvels, The History Channel, 2006

http://fallenfathers.blogspot.com/2007/03/children-without-fathers-statistics.html

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.
85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes --14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes – 10 times the average. (Rainbows for All God’s Children)
70% of youths in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (U.S. Dept. of Justice, Sept. 1988)
85% of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Fulton Co. Georgia, Texas Dept. of Correction)






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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/20/2010 2:49:40 AM   
crazyml


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Hmm... with the greatest respect to your stats... for them to have any meaning whatsoever you need to put them in context.

Take the military stats - Given that women have only recently been allowed to perform in front-line combat roles, the male/female injuries stats are completely meaningless, surely? What proportion of front-line combat roles are fulfilled by women today?

Stats are gnarly things, if you're going to front up with them, then you need to be sure of what you're talking about. This set of stats strikes me as a jumble of half-assed numbers trawled from google with a very very specific agenda in mind.


I really do agree with some of your points - Fathers are definitely discriminated against in divorce/custody hearings for example. But you're pushing water up-hill with your nose if you seriously want to demonstrate that men are "oppressed" when compared to women.



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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/20/2010 6:00:07 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: literarylady

Stop joking. That is my first response to men who believe that domestic violence against men is a societal problem.

Secondly, it has everything to do with looks for a woman. I am not saying that the same is not true for a man, JUST NOT TO THE SAME DEGREE: Send a 200 lb woman with superior qualifications for the job against one who is 130 and pretty. See what happens, 'tard.

Stop acting like men are oppressed. They aren't.
The real problem is that nobody believes it - why would that be?

If it is, and it's ignored, does that qualify as "feminist oppression or is the the notion "just silly"?



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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 8/20/2010 8:22:56 PM   
naughtynick81


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quote:

When you try to change the language to demote or deride someone else is a form of hate and it certainly is an attempt to control by the old divide and conquer method along with saying that some group is a victim group therefore they deserve to punish whomever they are told made them a victim. The most common villain is a white male which is why for the last decade or two they have been the only group it was safe and politically correct to insult and blame for everything and try to make them pay for every imagined or real offense that someone can come up with.


100 percent correct

That aside, feminism created this trend. If anyone else except a white male doesn't get a job they wanted or they don't make it up the top of the ladder, they can easily blame the white male for it by making up some bullshit excuse veering towards the evil white male is keeping them down. The white male is usually used as a scapegoat for people to run away from blaming themselves for their failures.

It's disgustingly sexist and discriminatory within it's self to have such an arrogant and ignorant view towards white males.


< Message edited by naughtynick81 -- 8/20/2010 8:37:34 PM >

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