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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:12:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I have to concede the "perspective" point when it comes to pregnancy, plainly.

But bringing up a child doesn't stop when it's born.. Yes the woman does take on discomfort and a very real (but relatively low) risk to her health for 9 months - and I really do not want to belittle that. But again... my mom would say "So, all the man has to do is pay child support, while you sit at home with it, bathe it, feed it, put it to bed?

The feeding thing is sort of obvious, I'm better equipped to feed a newborn than a supermarket, much less a man.

As far as mothering/fathering/parenting - are we still talking about accidental pregnancy here or procreation in general? I'm not a mother, but I have friends who have kids and it really does seem to me that the maternal bond is stronger than the paternal one when the baby is born. I don't have any scientific knowledge to back that up and I know there are bad mothers and brilliant fathers, but on average it does seem like giving birth and nursing creates a bond with a newborn that can't be rivalled.

And no I don't see much problem with that sort of division of labor (one parent supplies money one parent supplies time) the only problem I'd see is that child support rarely covers all the bills and so the mother would have to make money as well as taking care of the child, so in that case the father should definitely help with doing both too. This obviously assumes that the father is aware of the child and part of the child's life.

(in reply to crazyml)

RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:13:13 PM

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I think the double standard comes from seeing women's sexuality only in relation to men's, which is a societal form of controlling women's sexuality by not allowing it to exist on its own terms. There are various symptoms of this: one penis policies (OPPs) within poly relationships, since women's sexuality is seen as less threatening somehow as a result of being understood as "less sexual", in a way, than men's sexuality. Men are accepted as sexual beings while women's sexuality is comodified and controlled by society at large.

"Not to be flippant but most men I've met, if given the option to control women's sexuality, would lean in favor of "more slutty" rather than "wait until marriage.""

It's a society set-up, not one set up by any individual. It's because women were (and still are, largely) viewed as commodities, that women with broken hymens were seen as somehow broken themselves. Women's sexuality is seen as valuable in its holding back, not in its expression; but that's not where sexuality is meaningful for any given person. My sexuality is meaningful primarily in my experience and expression of it, and society likes to see women as either all sexual, or not at all, while men have the luxury of being assumed to be sexual creatures with other characteristics and value.

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:16:56 PM

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Porcelaine, great topic. The problem, of course, is that while a lot of the people here consider themselves feminists (including the men, which is great), there is not really a solid definition of feminism that anyone will agree to. We know this because of how freakin long my feminist thread got

The other problem is what the anti-feminists like to latch onto. Very, very few feminists hate men or believe that women should be superior, but that is the mindset that people like to trot out when decrying feminism. In fact, I don't believe those who believe that are feminists at all, since feminism is about equality and not superiority. But when someone calls herself a feminist, she's going to get people assuming that means she's angry and loud and hates men, because it's a comfortable stereotype to latch onto.

I've noticed a lot of resistance to feminist submissives here on CM, except when I tell a guy who's trying to get me to talk to him that I'm a feminist. Then suddenly it's very sexy, and he's a feminist too.

And I actually believe most of them, except when they try to tell me that feminism is about the freedom to be a slut, without asking me what my own definition of it is. But that's my own hangup, because despite the fact that it's possibly true, a lot of men are not very convincing in their supposed enlightenment about "feminist sluts." Frequently (not all the time), the concept seems to be just an excuse to objectify women while making the women think that they're empowered because of it.

That's not really feminism, and it bothers me quite a bit - I think mostly because it's men re-defining feminism, and not women. Then there are the actual anti-feminists (male and female) and I don't quite know what the hell to do with them. I don't want to insult anyone (even though I clearly am unfortunately going to), but if you are not a feminist, you are sexist. Feminism is just the belief of the equality of men and women, at its simplest and purest. If you don't believe in gender equality, and you believe in male superiority or female superiority - and I mean really believe it - then I think you're kind of a dick. I also think you haven't been paying attention.

I think anti-feminist men are greatly intimidated by feminists, because we're not supposed to be talking, except to agree with them. And I think anti-feminist women are either over-analyzing the concept and rejecting the term because they're misunderstanding it, or they're trying to impress the men who are intimidated by feminists.

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:18:05 PM

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:18:34 PM

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Greetings porcelaine....

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I would like to have a constructive discussion on the current wave of anti-feminism within the BDSM community. While I'm not advocating either side, I've noticed a peculiar bias among its female proponents. Ironically their derision is directed towards the submissive woman that embraces feminism on some level. To the degree where her supposed behavior towards dominant men - which renders him trod upon or victimized - is heavily denounced. Strangely enough, the identical acts when performed by the dominant male towards a submissive woman are lauded.

It isn't just in the BDSM community. It is everywhere. The reasons for it are, I believe, not what you think. It is part of the pendulum effect and a backlash against any and everything connected to political correctness (to use a term for grouping). In most societies, many thing move from one extreme or dominance to another over time. How fast those changes happen depend on what is changing. Feminism moved from an emphasis on equality (the 1800's) to female dominance. To many respects it got there in the 1970's and 80's. In the 1990's that started to be reversed and you are now seeing the results of the pendulum swinging back to a male dominant state. The change back is happening faster than the change going there because of the excess of a few who thought they had totally won and were now in complete control over certain things. They didn't realize that they weren't and what they were saying didn't match reality and so things started reversing very quickly. New studies in biology and neurology have proven that men and women are not the same and that yes, males, in general, like most mammals, are more dominant and outwardly directed and females, in general, like most mammals, are more submissive and inwardly directed. How this plays out in any given society is the point of contention here.

Why is one condemned and one lauded when they are the same thing? I think it is because one fits the biology better than the other. Humans instinctively go towards where their biology impels them. Society can try to change that but in the long run, it doesn't work very well.

quote:

I'm left to wonder if the root behind their disgust is truly indicative of their beliefs regarding feminism and its affect on men as a whole, or relates to attributes perceived in other submissive persons that they deem unacceptable and inappropriate.

Q: Have you noticed a similar bias in the behavioral differences between the roles and sexes? And if so, what is your opinion?

As always, I look forward to your feedback.

~porcelaine

I think it is because people finally stopped being cowed into going along with what they were told was right when the underlying falseness started to be shown and the whole thing unraveled. To me, anything smacking of political correctness is treated as the hate speech and divisiveness it is and I reject it rather violently. This makes a few of the responses so far both amusing and pathetic in their, for the so called dominants who are uttering them, slavish devotion to lies and their submission to the will of the liars that makes it so for me.

Be well....

Malkinius

_____________________________

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(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:18:49 PM

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Solestria - brilliant stuff. Thank you for saying it

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:34:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: solestria

I think the double standard comes from seeing women's sexuality only in relation to men's, which is a societal form of controlling women's sexuality by not allowing it to exist on its own terms. There are various symptoms of this: one penis policies (OPPs) within poly relationships, since women's sexuality is seen as less threatening somehow as a result of being understood as "less sexual", in a way, than men's sexuality. Men are accepted as sexual beings while women's sexuality is comodified and controlled by society at large.

"Not to be flippant but most men I've met, if given the option to control women's sexuality, would lean in favor of "more slutty" rather than "wait until marriage.""

It's a society set-up, not one set up by any individual. It's because women were (and still are, largely) viewed as commodities, that women with broken hymens were seen as somehow broken themselves. Women's sexuality is seen as valuable in its holding back, not in its expression; but that's not where sexuality is meaningful for any given person. My sexuality is meaningful primarily in my experience and expression of it, and society likes to see women as either all sexual, or not at all, while men have the luxury of being assumed to be sexual creatures with other characteristics and value.

I have a pretty big blind spot here because I don't enjoy casual sex. I've tried it and I am one of those people who genuinely does find meaning in both holding back and expression. Maybe it's hard for me to get upset about the status quo because I don't really have a problem with it, but if it's something that bothers you I guess you can go ahead and work to change the attitudes behind it. I still think you should be more careful than a man, unless you're unable to get pregnant.

To defend the "patriarchy" though, society was set up that way for a reason. Pre DNA testing, marital fidelity was the only paternity test, and since wealth was inherited through the male line (most likely because men were the ones creating and obtaining most of that wealth via war, farming, mining, and other manual labor heavy tasks) it was sort of a big deal.

(in reply to solestria)

RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:44:28 PM

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quote:

I have a pretty big blind spot here because I don't enjoy casual sex. I've tried it and I am one of those people who genuinely does find meaning in both holding back and expression. Maybe it's hard for me to get upset about the status quo because I don't really have a problem with it, but if it's something that bothers you I guess you can go ahead and work to change the attitudes behind it. I still think you should be more careful than a man, unless you're unable to get pregnant.

Why do you assume that I do enjoy casual sex? I don't think you (generic you) need to engage in it yourself in order to find the double standard problematic and harmful to women and their sexual expression. When it comes down to it, no one has the right to tell me, as a woman (or a submissive, or anything else for that matter) what my sexuality and its expression should look like. It's for me to decide how I want to express that, what risks I'm willing to shoulder, etc. I have a problem with a status quo that punishes women for sexual expression that's expected of men (who are having sex with women, at that; I've always been baffled at how exactly that works), that sends the message that women who are more actively sexual are somehow making themselves less.

quote:

To defend the "patriarchy" though, society was set up that way for a reason. Pre DNA testing, marital fidelity was the only paternity test, and since wealth was inherited through the male line (most likely because men were the ones creating and obtaining most of that wealth via war, farming, mining, and other manual labor heavy tasks) it was sort of a big deal.

I don't think that excuses the way women's sexuality is commodified and generally places in the province of men, and it certainly doesn't excuse that in this age or mean that we shouldn't be working to place women's sexual agency and choice squarely back into the hands of women.

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:46:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
To defend the "patriarchy" though, society was set up that way for a reason.

Not so long ago, society was "set up" so that Africans could be taken from their countries and made into slaves... I'm not entirely sure that "society was set up that way..." necessarily means it was a good reason.

Patrlineage is a very effective way to consolidate capital within a single familiy (whether that's a good or a bad thing probably belongs in Politics and Religion though... ;-) ).

I think that physical strength does explain why men were able to treat women as property, but I'm not sure it's a justification for it.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:48:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: solestria

Why do you assume that I do enjoy casual sex? I don't think you (generic you) need to engage in it yourself in order to find the double standard problematic and harmful to women and their sexual expression. When it comes down to it, no one has the right to tell me, as a woman (or a submissive, or anything else for that matter) what my sexuality and its expression should look like. It's for me to decide how I want to express that, what risks I'm willing to shoulder, etc. I have a problem with a status quo that punishes women for sexual expression that's expected of men (who are having sex with women, at that; I've always been baffled at how exactly that works), that sends the message that women who are more actively sexual are somehow making themselves less.

Well I am fairly judgmental about most things. I think people should have the right to do what they want to do with their own bodies. And I think I have the right to gossip about it.

quote:

I don't think that excuses the way women's sexuality is commodified and generally places in the province of men, and it certainly doesn't excuse that in this age or mean that we shouldn't be working to place women's sexual agency and choice squarely back into the hands of women.

I think that everyone should have a choice about what they do to their bodies, I just don't think that all choices are created equal.

Having the right to make a choice includes having the right to make a bad choice - just don't get so focused on "omg I chose something" and overlook what it is you did choose.

(in reply to solestria)

RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:49:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Not so long ago, society was "set up" so that Africans could be taken from their countries and made into slaves... I'm not entirely sure that "society was set up that way..." necessarily means it was a good reason.

Patrlineage is a very effective way to consolidate capital within a single familiy (whether that's a good or a bad thing probably belongs in Politics and Religion though... ;-) ).

I think that physical strength does explain why men were able to treat women as property, but I'm not sure it's a justification for it.

I agree.

But I do think it's important to examine the reasons rather than just fight the symptoms.

(in reply to crazyml)

RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:53:14 PM

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quote:

I think that everyone should have a choice about what they do to their bodies, I just don't think that all choices are created equal.

But who gets to decide whether a given choice was the right one? Shouldn't that be the province of, in this context, the woman who decides to sleep with someone? Your judgment plays into the idea that there's a "right" way for her to express her own sexuality; that you can somehow decide for her, for her own good, what's right for her. That's what much of misogynistic thought is based on, the idea of protecting women from themselves.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:54:40 PM

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[Off Topic] Check your bulk mail

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 5:57:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: solestria

But who gets to decide whether a given choice was the right one? Shouldn't that be the province of, in this context, the woman who decides to sleep with someone? Your judgment plays into the idea that there's a "right" way for her to express her own sexuality; that you can somehow decide for her, for her own good, what's right for her. That's what much of misogynistic thought is based on, the idea of protecting women from themselves.

She gets to judge her choice too. And I'm not nasty or anything, I've had friends who make questionable choices about a lot of things and to the best of my knowledge I've never called any of them a dumb slut.

I have no interest in deciding for someone else what is good for them. I might advise them. I might criticize them. But the only time I'd "protect" someone from their own choice is if they were obviously drunk or impaired, and that's only because the one time I *didn't* do that it ended a good friendship when I didn't realize she wasn't as jaded as most people I knew.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 6:00:06 PM

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One point here regarding the woman getting pregnant and birthing a child out of wedlock and the man gets off scot free..

Here in Australia, provided it can be proven either by the birth certificate of the child or by a paternity test (court ordered if necessary) it is a criminal offence not to pay about 17.5% of the male's wages to the mother of the child in maintenance. (It may have changed by now) and with additional children the maximum he has to pay is no more than I think 50% or his income. This is either paid by the father to the mother or to the appropriate Govt agency who pays the mother monthly. (Again things may have changed). Even when on unemployment (Dole) benefit or sickness benefit, approx AU$15 per pay (fortnightly) is taken from the benefit prior to it being paid into his bank account. With repeat offenders who don't pay regularly a court order is made garnishing his wages/salary. Ultimately it is the Tax department which can see if he is paying the right amount as specific Federal Govt Agencies are auto linked to the ATO.

I'm told recently that we here are one of the most heavily taxed and regulated countries and on a local government basis, the Cabulture Shire Council is second to one city in the US (Chicago I think) as being the most highly regulated and annal local governments in the world. Also NSW here is in the top five states in the world as far as litigation goes..

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 6:03:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

I think it might be part of the curent feminism backlash in general. I have seen many responses that show me the (generic, not you porcelaine) poster's orientation is completely male identified, but I can't think of any instances you are describing.

I believe that's true for some, but on the Internet I suspect it's a matter of fitting in to certain cultures that articulate that sentiment. Replying would incite their behavior and I make a concerted effort to avoid heated situations whenever possible. No one is served in my opinion.

~porcelaine

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 6:06:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

A friend of mine just got bashed over on FL for saying that it was a person's responsibility to know what was good for them. Some lady responded to one of her remarks with:

You make it sound as though a slave should be responsible for knowing what's good for them.

I shit you not. What kind of reasoning is that?

I believe the site suffers from mean girl syndrome. It is pretty rife and there are moments when I can only shake my head in disbelief. Yes, I believe it. But the alternative is far worse and usually occurs in groups.

~porcelaine/quote]

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 6:20:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

Porcelaine, great topic. The problem, of course, is that while a lot of the people here consider themselves feminists (including the men, which is great), there is not really a solid definition of feminism that anyone will agree to. We know this because of how freakin long my feminist thread got

Thanks sweets. I got inspiration over yonder.

quote:

I think anti-feminist men are greatly intimidated by feminists, because we're not supposed to be talking, except to agree with them. And I think anti-feminist women are either over-analyzing the concept and rejecting the term because they're misunderstanding it, or they're trying to impress the men who are intimidated by feminists.

Perhaps they were liberated on the kneel and discovered their rightful place under his hand? But what's shocking is the venom. There's a real disgust for those that haven't been enlightened.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 6:24:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

I think it is because people finally stopped being cowed into going along with what they were told was right when the underlying falseness started to be shown and the whole thing unraveled. To me, anything smacking of political correctness is treated as the hate speech and divisiveness it is and I reject it rather violently. This makes a few of the responses so far both amusing and pathetic in their, for the so called dominants who are uttering them, slavish devotion to lies and their submission to the will of the liars that makes it so for me.

This. Gosh, you guys rock. Well stated.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

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(in reply to Malkinius)

RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/23/2010 7:03:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Greetings porcelaine....

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I would like to have a constructive discussion on the current wave of anti-feminism within the BDSM community. While I'm not advocating either side, I've noticed a peculiar bias among its female proponents. Ironically their derision is directed towards the submissive woman that embraces feminism on some level. To the degree where her supposed behavior towards dominant men - which renders him trod upon or victimized - is heavily denounced. Strangely enough, the identical acts when performed by the dominant male towards a submissive woman are lauded.

It isn't just in the BDSM community. It is everywhere. The reasons for it are, I believe, not what you think. It is part of the pendulum effect and a backlash against any and everything connected to political correctness (to use a term for grouping). In most societies, many thing move from one extreme or dominance to another over time. How fast those changes happen depend on what is changing. Feminism moved from an emphasis on equality (the 1800's) to female dominance. To many respects it got there in the 1970's and 80's. In the 1990's that started to be reversed and you are now seeing the results of the pendulum swinging back to a male dominant state. The change back is happening faster than the change going there because of the excess of a few who thought they had totally won and were now in complete control over certain things. They didn't realize that they weren't and what they were saying didn't match reality and so things started reversing very quickly. New studies in biology and neurology have proven that men and women are not the same and that yes, males, in general, like most mammals, are more dominant and outwardly directed and females, in general, like most mammals, are more submissive and inwardly directed. How this plays out in any given society is the point of contention here.

Why is one condemned and one lauded when they are the same thing? I think it is because one fits the biology better than the other. Humans instinctively go towards where their biology impels them. Society can try to change that but in the long run, it doesn't work very well.

quote:

I'm left to wonder if the root behind their disgust is truly indicative of their beliefs regarding feminism and its affect on men as a whole, or relates to attributes perceived in other submissive persons that they deem unacceptable and inappropriate.

Q: Have you noticed a similar bias in the behavioral differences between the roles and sexes? And if so, what is your opinion?

As always, I look forward to your feedback.

~porcelaine

I think it is because people finally stopped being cowed into going along with what they were told was right when the underlying falseness started to be shown and the whole thing unraveled. To me, anything smacking of political correctness is treated as the hate speech and divisiveness it is and I reject it rather violently. This makes a few of the responses so far both amusing and pathetic in their, for the so called dominants who are uttering them, slavish devotion to lies and their submission to the will of the liars that makes it so for me.

Be well....

Malkinius

I am sorry...I have to disagree. It justifies why women should be passed over in the work place due to their natural submissive tendencies....Why hire a passive woman when a man will stand up and do the job?

Utter bullshit!!!

I know scads of women that are not naturally submissive outside of their D/s relationship. I know tons of 'nilla women and subs that would have no problem for taking Malkininius to task over this issue. They would tear him to shreds.

here we sit on a bdsm site discussing feminism. People can say it is simply the right to chose that makes one a feminist. I have never seen it that way.

It is your actions that define a person. You want to eat out of a dog bowl and proclaim you are an ardent feminist, go right ahead. I don't think anyone would be necessarily buying it if you chose to promote that aspect about your identity. It is a bit of a quandary in which to some your life might have aspects which are diametrically opposed.

So there are two issues at hand that which is displayed publicly and that which makes your choice in a relationship.

Maybe a bit of a hijack ....It takes strength to submit effectively. Many men and women may not see it that way.

This is also from a conversation that I recently had on the topic at hand to an extent.

Too many subs feel that there place is to acquiesce to the Dom and wait for the Dom to lead in virtually every situation. It's obviously because of your weak biological and neurological make up. I think it sucks ass.

To make every decision and chart every move just makes more work for me. That is not being helpful or furthering the relationship. You become some sort of a sponge, parasite or for a fishing reference....A lamprey. No one wants to fuck a lamprey, for any type of an extended period.

Initially lamprey sex is hot but then it becomes a total drag. Too much of a weight to bear.

I need a strong partner. I need a woman that is confident and sharp. I think I need a feminist. In that she has confidence, can stand up for herself and her beliefs and doesn't put herself second to any man outside of her relationship.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 7/23/2010 7:05:20 PM >

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