Collarchat.com

Join Our Community
Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 5:20:16 AM   
realwhiteknight


Posts: 428
Joined: 7/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

'Political correctness' had now come to be applied to almost anything that the right wing didn't like about the left wing. 


I *love* that definition.


_____________________________

I carry a log - yes. Is it funny to you? It is not to me.

Behind all things are reasons. Reasons can even explain the absurd. Do we have the time to learn the reasons behind the human being's varied behavior? I think not. Some take the time.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 5:25:53 AM   
realwhiteknight


Posts: 428
Joined: 7/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I'd like to, respond to one of your comments in particular -
quote:

It could pre-date Homo Sapiens but I have no proof of that.


This is pretty "out-there" as a theory, since most anthropoligists believe that hunter gatherer societies weren't capable of supporting organised slave taking, to to argue that it predates Homo Sapiens is either brave or foolish. I'd really like to know what you base this theory of yours on - If you could make a strong case, it would earn you a PHD (or another one) in a flash. I presume you've a background in Anthropology?


quote:

I responded to this point to realwhiteknight but it is not a hunter society that I and my reading believe started slavery as we know it but it happened with the gatherer side and with the beginnings of agriculture.


This.

quote:


 I do not have a PhD. I do have a BA in communications


Followed by this.

That's my argument right there.


EDIT: Apologies for hogging the board here..


< Message edited by realwhiteknight -- 7/24/2010 5:31:23 AM >


_____________________________

I carry a log - yes. Is it funny to you? It is not to me.

Behind all things are reasons. Reasons can even explain the absurd. Do we have the time to learn the reasons behind the human being's varied behavior? I think not. Some take the time.

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 5:47:01 AM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
Hi Porcelaine,

I am not sure what you are referring to in this post. If it wouldn't trod upon others' privacy, could you provide an example or two that you have observered? Also, are you talking about the message boards, the personal ads, or some other area of Collarme? I read pretty selectively on the forums; I don't have time to look at everything, or even most things, so I think I need some context.

As a blind reply, I always feel the way you are describing, but only toward a dominant I am involved with or whom he or she tells me to treat as dominant. The gender doesn't matter. The fact that the person is dominant over me means, in the sorts of relationships I get involved with, an extreme power imbalance that expresses itself in a multitude ways. One of those is privilege imbalance: dominants receive and often expect treatment from anybody directly under them that they are not obligated in the least, in my mind, to reciprocate. Likewise, they treat me in a manner that would be entirely imappropriate for me to treat them. But I'm stating the obvious here, I think: that's just the standard-issue sub-dom imbalance. If it didn't exist, I (and I suspect a lot of other people) would not get anything gratifying out of bdsm. I expect what you are talking about is something quite different?



_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 6:32:15 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
I am going to TRY and give my long answer, now that I have time. Keep in mind, while I am reasonably intelligent and well read, my formal education is severly lacking. I also suck at remember facts or where I've read something. So if you want to argue my post and demand references or that I back up my summarizing with facts, you are SOL and may as well ignore the rest of my post. In addition I am a HUGE fan of people watching and behavioural observation.

It has been my observation that most people attack what opposes something they feel most strongly about. Things that they base a lot of their personal identity on, things that touch on their own insecurities.

It's obvious that our hormones play a HUGE role in our behaviour. Thousands, even hundreds, of years ago that role was usually beneficial. Today, much less so. The sad part is that somewhere along the line, the benefits of testosterone became better and the benefits of estrogen became weaker. When in reality, at least from where I sit, they just became excuses for bad behaviour.

Our physical differences (because let's face it we know less about the human brain than we know) and the havoc those differences wreak on our emotions are weakly celebrated, using them as excuses for bad and outdated behaviour, is the sad part.

I am huge for personal responsibility. I see this as being another area where personal responsibility is not taught, rather the weaker, using it as an excuse for bad behaviour is taught. Even I am guilty. How many times I have used my hormones as a laughing excuse for a bad emotional action....what a poor example to younger women that is. How many men use something like 'it just pissed me off' or something similar as an excuse for an act of anger or rage that was poorly managed.

It is my opinion that, rather than using excuses for the gender/hormonal (because that really is the root of the issue) differences, we should teach better coping skills. Because as long as we use the differences as excuses, as long as we celebrate the negative outcome of those differences.....we will have the backlash of the behaviour of that gender's demands for equality and equal treatment. Rather like an adult demanding to be treated as an adult but tossing a temper tantrum like a child.

Our lives have evolved, unfortunately the insecure will use whatever argument they can dig up to continue to promote strengths that are outdated. We twist those individual strengths around to mean 'better' and because men were physically stronger, they were able to bully their way into a false sense of being better and taking over the visible power structures. Women, being physically weaker and seen as lesser humans, evolved coping skills that were far more complex than most men today even get. Those that, at some level do, almost seem to fear them and deride those skills as being manipulative and weak. Even I do the same...........when in reality is was a very clever evolution. Women couldn't challenge men to a physical fight but boy, did they learn how to use their femininity (men's achillies heel) to control their men. Both the physical fighting and the manipulating should actively be taught OUT of our societies.

I laugh when I read arguments of 'natural order'. To explain the laugh.......envision a brand new, biggest, strongest, workhorse of a tractor. Then envision a sleek sexy European sedan. Not a 2 door sports car. Just a beautiful sexy car. Which is 'better'? Well, most would ask what you needed the vehicle to do, before they could answer. I am not going to take the car into the field, or try to pull a huge wagon full of grain. I will not take the tractor to go shopping or to drive the family to grandma's house for Easter dinner. So 'better' solely depends upon purpose. There is no natural selection involved. Men's bodies and temperament were more evolved to do heavy labour and protect. That STILL does not mean better or have anything to do with natural selection as far as one gender being better. It also doesn't mean one gender is more dominant or submissive. It only means one genders body and temperament are usually better suited to using their bodies in specific ways.

Just because nature caused male bodies to evolve to do more physical labour and protect their offspring and the well of their offspring no more gave them the right to use that same body to bully their way into power over those they were protecting and working with. It didn't give them the right to say their work was more important than the work of the physically weaker either. Unfortunately, insecurities in both genders, caused the divisions and power struggles. At some points in time, it would appear the male gender's insecure fights have secured their superiourity. If being a bully means superiour, then yes. But you could also say that the people/gender that learned to USE that to their advantages was the more superiour. Is the tractor superiour over the person using it to do the work?

Let me add.....neither does the women's strengths give them any more right to say they are, as a gender, superiour. Just different strengths and weaknesses.

While I am fully aware it is human nature that drives the constant struggle, there is no clear winner. Most of the time all I see is losers. Because until we learn to celebrate our unique differences and work with them while not using them as excuses for our bad behaviour, we will continue to struggle and we will all, to a degree, lose.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/24/2010 6:42:16 AM >


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 8:45:10 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

I think it's a fascinating thing too. Women are very cruel to women. But I suppose I'm a bit biased on behalf of feminists because I haven't actually seen femininity derided like you have - I wouldn't stand for that either. It all seems really basic to me: no one can make a massive statement about a group based on gender, race, sexual orientation or any other category. You just can't, because we're all individuals, with as many variations as can possibly be imagined.


The behavior mentioned is from the anti-feminists. But there are other factors and I think this represents a branch of BDSM that has latched onto (or seeks to display themselves) as more extreme. In some respects the anti-feminist stance isn't a shock. But the cruelty to their own is the bigger surprise (to some degree) and I think underneath the supposed camaraderie there is a definite dislike that I can't put a finger on. Nonetheless it is interesting to observe.

I agree that it is difficult to make sweeping generalizations and individuality invites in different nuances. What I'm witnessing is both individual and pack oriented. Especially when directed at presumably weaker persons. I wouldn't liken it to male chiding because the intent is to mock, maim, etc. And this is often driven (on the surface) as a way of identifying a proposed better-than mindset because "those" ideologies have been cast aside. It's a lot like being a sane scientist in a lab filled with mad rats. You don't know where to begin. At every turn there's a touch of 'specialness' worth observing.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 9:00:18 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Perhaps it's my reading comprehension or a flaw in the springs and mechanisms of my mind.......being frank...I'm not grasping the following:

a) The nature of the 'anti-feminism' that you're encountering.

b) How this relates to submission and/or opinions offered by either gender/role.


My question specifically addresses anti-feminism within our ranks and the affect it has on culture. I made a specific reference to the behaviors I've witnessed by submissive women toward other women that may or may not identify as feminist. And then went on to query if others had encountered differences in treatment in regard to gender in their respective experiences.

The anti-feminist bias as a whole represents behaviors that have been articulated and justified as appropriate since they contradict the feminist ideology and protect dominant men that encounter this in the women they're relating to or considering. What they perceived as cruel and wrong when done by women (to the man) is perfectly acceptable when reversed and celebrated. I addressed submissive anti-feminists because I have not seen the same treatment exhibited towards the female dominant. Even those that might align with feminism. The difference was interesting. My apologies for the confusion.

quote:

As a side note.....during the last feminism thread....it was noticeable that any attempt to contrast (as well as compare) the principles of feminism and submission.....wasn't appreciated. And I arrived at the conclusion that there are a fair few people round here who are vested solely in having their opinions reinforced...to the extent that they do not want to discuss other possibilities.


I invite you to explore that angle if you'd like. The purpose of this thread is to explore the subject of anti-feminism and it would be difficult to discuss it in depth without touching upon the respective roles and their relationship (including contradiction if applicable) to the beliefs expressed.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 9:02:31 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

I need a strong partner. I need a woman that is confident and sharp. I think I need a feminist. In that she has confidence, can stand up for herself and her beliefs and doesn't put herself second to any man outside of her relationship.


Interestingly enough I think women with those personality types fare better with men that desire it. When she partners with a man that feels threatened by her strength he feels compelled to wrench it from her in a manner that often leaves her horribly injured.

~porcelaine


What a succinct way of putting something that I have experienced myself and seen happen to other women.

That is why is it critical to know your partner and not view him as a projection of what you want rather than see his reality.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 9:49:21 AM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I would like to have a constructive discussion on the current wave of anti-feminism within the BDSM community. While I'm not advocating either side, I've noticed a peculiar bias among its female proponents. Ironically their derision is directed towards the submissive woman that embraces feminism on some level.

I'm left to wonder if the root behind their disgust is truly indicative of their beliefs regarding feminism and its affect on men as a whole, or relates to attributes perceived in other submissive persons that they deem unacceptable and inappropriate.

Q: Have you noticed a similar bias in the behavioral differences between the roles and sexes? And if so, what is your opinion?


Yes, I've noticed what you describe, and it makes sense, given the orientations. It would be natural, I think, for a woman to denounce feminism if her Master believed in the supremacy of the male and the place of the female as natural servant, unequal to men. By serving him as a slave, she would naturally align with his beliefs about the sexes—she would concede to look at the world through his particular lens. On the other hand, there is the popular acceptance of feminism as good and just, and Masters who think similarly are well served by differentiating themselves from male supremacists and their perceived misogyny.

What I suspect feeds the ire of many anti-feminists is the perception that feminism equals female supremacy. Somewhere along the way, these two concepts were conflated and became synonymous, by accident or purposefully so for rhetorical effect.

_____________________________

Omnes una manet nox

Founder, Humbled Females

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 10:18:07 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I would like to have a constructive discussion on the current wave of anti-feminism within the BDSM community.
In my opinion, the "wave of anti-feminism" has a lot more to do with 3rd wave feminism than it does anything going on in the BDSM community. Neither myself or Carol are exactly fond of what little sense we can make out of 3rd wavers. I am and I always have been all for equality of the genders (in terms of law and social practice). I am NOT, however, nor will I ever be in favor of one gender waging war on the other.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 10:19:58 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

My apologies for the confusion.



No apology necessary. No more than a difference in style.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

What they perceived as cruel and wrong when done by women (to the man) is perfectly acceptable when reversed and celebrated.



I'm not particularly active in 'the community' - so the following should be taken as based on limited experience:

I would say that 'the community' is falling over itself to be seen to be open to suggestions i.e. anything goes - in an attempt to be seen to value the individual spirit and freedom of choice. I haven't seen a great deal of preferential treatment directed toward male or female dominants - all things being equal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

The purpose of this thread is to explore the subject of anti-feminism and it would be difficult to discuss it in depth without touching upon the respective roles and their relationship (including contradiction if applicable) to the beliefs expressed.

~porcelaine



In that case: what exactly is 'anti-feminism'?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 10:54:20 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
Let me repost in hopefully a more acceptable manner where it might not be removed.

Greetings Malkinius...

I guess referring you you as a Gorean is a no-no. Although I think it has a tremendous impact on your views of the world and deserves to be mentioned.

There is a tread specifically set up for those who cater to the Gor ideology. You have decided to post here which does, I believe, make your Gorean philosophies relevant to the conversation at hand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius


Thank you for that. You are right and people have done it. My point is that you fell into a common error which too many people have been taught. Even if you actually do know better, it did not come across that way. It is a problem with certain knee-jerk responses. I have similar problems with all sorts of hate speech and the denigrating of one group to boost another. While I do dislike some groups, those groups are based on shared ideologies, not something about what they were born with. I will note that while someone can be born INTO a political ideology or religious group, that does not mean that they must stay in it when they become rational which usually happens as an adult. Some individuals never get to that state. <grins> I think we all know a few.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius


Don't confuse any of the financial equality statements with the all men are rapists and all sex, even consensual sex, with men is rape. Also anything with a patriarchal term in it. The first is fine and good as far as I am concerned. The latter is based on hatred and envy and a search for power and sometimes money. Any time any group sets one group against another, that is divisiveness and ends up promoting hate of the "other" group or groups. When you try to change the language to demote or deride someone else is a form of hate and it certainly is an attempt to control by the old divide and conquer method along with saying that some group is a victim group therefore they deserve to punish whomever they are told made them a victim. The most common villain is a white male which is why for the last decade or two they have been the only group it was safe and politically correct to insult and blame for everything and try to make them pay for every imagined or real offense that someone can come up with.



You also seem to have a serious problem with making absolute and horribly absurd statements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius
Don't confuse any of the financial equality statements with the all men are rapists and all sex, even consensual sex, with men is rape. Also anything with a patriarchal term in it. The first is fine and good as far as I am concerned. The latter is based on hatred and envy and a search for power and sometimes money.



there have certainly been documented cases where women have lied about the nature of a sexual encounter for profit or revenge. What percentage of women that say they were raped fall into that category?


DiCanio, M. (1993). The encyclopedia of violence : origins, attitudes, consequences. New York : Facts on File

Michelle J. Anderson of the Villanova University School of Law states: "As a scientific matter, the frequency of false rape complaints to police or other legal authorities remains unknown."he FBI's 1996 Uniform Crime Report states that 8% of reports of forcible rape were determined to be unfounded upon investigation, but that percentage does not include cases where an accuser fails or refuses to cooperate in an investigation or drops the charges. A British study using a similar methodology that does not include the accusers who drop out of the justice process found a false reporting rate of 8% as well. DiCanio (1993) states that while researchers and prosecutors do not agree on the exact percentage of false allegations, they generally agree on a range of two to eight percent.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

The most common villain is a white male which is why for the last decade or two they have been the only group it was safe and politically correct to insult and blame for everything and try to make them pay for every imagined or real offense that someone can come up with.


While you have a problem with people that denigrate one group to boost another....You seem to have no problem denigrating those that cannot appreciate the plight of the white male. We are a horribly persecuted peoples.

Again, I would ask you to prove your assumption. Where is the proof that we have been incorrectly villainized? I see the white male still sitting atop the food chain. Though the times they are a changing....It is a welcome one at that. But much still needs to be done to correct some inequities. Although the white male may no longer automatically be bestowed a place higher than other ethnicities, the polarization now seems to have shifted between those that have vs those that have not.

Aside from being born into wealth, there is still no better gift to give an American child than to be born a white male in today's society...It simply doesn't suck!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius


I would like to have a constructive discussion on the current wave of anti-feminism within the BDSM community. While I'm not advocating either side, I've noticed a peculiar bias among its female proponents.


. Feminism moved from an emphasis on equality (the 1800's) to female dominance. To many respects it got there in the 1970's and 80's. In the 1990's that started to be reversed and you are now seeing the results of the pendulum swinging back to a male dominant state. The change back is happening faster than the change going there because of the excess of a few who thought they had totally won and were now in complete control over certain things. They didn't realize that they weren't and what they were saying didn't match reality and so things started reversing very quickly. New studies in biology and neurology have proven that men and women are not the same and that yes, males, in general, like most mammals, are more dominant and outwardly directed and females, in general, like most mammals, are more submissive and inwardly directed. How this plays out in any given society is the point of contention here.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

While I'm not advocating either side, I've noticed a peculiar bias among its female proponents.



You are certainly advocating one side of the argument and that it is rather obvious. To suggest otherwise, is simply a way for you to purport to be unbiased which is totally disingenuous when I imagine it is evident to virtually everyone that you possess some rather adamant extreme views on the subject matter..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

New studies in biology and neurology have proven that men and women are not the same and that yes, males, in general, like most mammals, are more dominant and outwardly directed and females, in general, like most mammals, are more submissive and inwardly directed.


Lastly, I would love to the research which is the basis for your statement about the biology and the neurology of a woman that makes her submissive and naturally passive.

You are correct in that men and women have their differences.

In the workplace much of what you described simply does not exist.

As I stated previously, at no time in our past have women held more positions as CEO's or made more inroads to previously male dominated occupations than what is occurring today.

Where men do have the testosterone necessary for war I don't think anyone would consider a woman to be passive or submissive when it comes to protecting those that she cares about.

I find your thoughts not to be very well supported by anything other than your own antiquated and Gorean philosophies.

If I am mistaken please respond back and make your case.


Be well.....

Domiguy


< Message edited by domiguy -- 7/24/2010 10:58:45 AM >


_____________________________



(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 11:14:26 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I would like to have a constructive discussion on the current wave of anti-feminism within the BDSM community. While I'm not advocating either side, I've noticed a peculiar bias among its female proponents. Ironically their derision is directed towards the submissive woman that embraces feminism on some level.

I'm left to wonder if the root behind their disgust is truly indicative of their beliefs regarding feminism and its affect on men as a whole, or relates to attributes perceived in other submissive persons that they deem unacceptable and inappropriate.

Q: Have you noticed a similar bias in the behavioral differences between the roles and sexes? And if so, what is your opinion?


Yes, I've noticed what you describe, and it makes sense, given the orientations. It would be natural, I think, for a woman to denounce feminism if her Master believed in the supremacy of the male and the place of the female as natural servant, unequal to men. By serving him as a slave, she would naturally align with his beliefs about the sexes—she would concede to look at the world through his particular lens. On the other hand, there is the popular acceptance of feminism as good and just, and Masters who think similarly are well served by differentiating themselves from male supremacists and their perceived misogyny.

What I suspect feeds the ire of many anti-feminists is the perception that feminism equals female supremacy. Somewhere along the way, these two concepts were conflated and became synonymous, by accident or purposefully so for rhetorical effect.


Interesting post in that it shows the contradictory elements involved. Perhaps the slave would be better off to avoid the misogynist altogether...Who knows, maybe she digs that shit?

You are correct that many do become rather jaded or put out to the notion of one sex or group claiming supremacy over the other. In the same breath, the boys cub has been thriving fairly unabated for quite some time. That has to be rather tiring for a woman trying to get to the top.

While we might complain about woman that proclaim their superiority over men it is but a small percentage and in the scheme of things doesn't really change much of the fabric of society.

It's similar to Malkinius bemoaning the plight of today's white male. It might mean something to him and those that share his ideology but it doesn't really amount to much in the way affairs are actually conducted.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 7/24/2010 11:15:02 AM >


_____________________________



(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 1:13:56 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: solestria

I really don't think that's it.  Yes, women do bear more physical consequences than men (potential pregnancy and larger risk of STD contraction), but I don't think that accounts for the double standard.  With all the women on birth control of various forms, that double standard still exists regardless.  I think it has to do with controlling women's sexuality far more than the more practical consequences, which can be vastly minimized with proper protection; and yet, the stigma doesn't lessen with that.


have to agree - i dont think its the pregnancy threat either.  its a dogma that has been part of the human race, i would argue for an extremely long time, long before 'rights' was even a word, probably.

because we live in the here and now and its all we know we judge society by the here and now and tend to forget i think that we are pretty much the product of our own genetic programming.  no matter how much we'd like to think we can override millions of years of biological programming, the fact remains, a woman who screws around is, so far as society is concerned undesireable because she's not fitting to the 'normal' pattern of being impregnated by one man and bearing him lots of offspring

i expect because, as crzyml says, we've grown up into a society where women can choose to flout this dogma and all other dogmas i have never really been conciously feminist in my out look, ive flouted what has suited me and considered certain things my right, but only as a person with rights, nothing to do with my gender.

im not anti feminist at all, in fact i probably am one if i really think about it, but if im honest ive always thought feminism was alot of talk about stuff we already enjoy and exercise when we want to.

so far as im concerned i am a product of feminism, i would argue most women are these days whether theyre feminist or not.


_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to solestria)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 6:00:21 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Yes, I've noticed what you describe, and it makes sense, given the orientations. It would be natural, I think, for a woman to denounce feminism if her Master believed in the supremacy of the male and the place of the female as natural servant, unequal to men. By serving him as a slave, she would naturally align with his beliefs about the sexes—she would concede to look at the world through his particular lens. On the other hand, there is the popular acceptance of feminism as good and just, and Masters who think similarly are well served by differentiating themselves from male supremacists and their perceived misogyny.


This makes sense and I'm uncertain if the women that have embraced this mindset are serving men that think this way. Or if they've simply adopted this line of thinking on their own volition. While this would appear impossible to me based on my viewpoints, I recognize slavery plays out much differently in other households. You're addressing it from the perspective of the enslaved that has truthfully embraced his viewpoints, but I return to my previous statement. I've encountered a lot in Wonderland and it looks very different from the vehicle I've defined. Rightly so of course.

I suspect many supremacists are more restrained in expressing their ideologies. Especially in unwelcoming environments. It would make sense that the man that held those ideas in high esteem would indoctrinate the slave. But this veers in a different direction and forces me to reconcile a conduct I find off putting for one in that station. I intentionally shied away from labeling this slavery for those reasons. But your comments make perfect sense.

quote:

What I suspect feeds the ire of many anti-feminists is the perception that feminism equals female supremacy. Somewhere along the way, these two concepts were conflated and became synonymous, by accident or purposefully so for rhetorical effect.


That's an interesting observation. It would explain the need to belittle in a manner that cheapens the individual. I'm not well versed in female supremacy and how it contradicts (or coincides in some respect) with the male aspect. You are welcome to expound on either if you would like to do so.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 7:23:47 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Interesting post in that it shows the contradictory elements involved. Perhaps the slave would be better off to avoid the misogynist altogether...Who knows, maybe she digs that shit?



Just digging the person would be enough to bring about this behavior (acceptance of views that in most circumstances or in a former life the submissive would abhor) in someone dedicated to slavery as it isn't the views themselves, however important they may be, that are central to such a person: rather it is the person they are dedicated to and their own quality of dedication that trumps all. But you are right, some submissives develop a strong fetish for misogyny (or misandrony, if they happen to be hetro males).

I've known a number of submissives who like to play on the racial lines as well (superior black dominant if you are white or superior white dominant if you are black), and some take it quite far. I can relate to it--it sounds like fun, just as the misogny (with the right person) sounds like fun, due to the slightly different twists and flavors it brings to power extremes.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 7:55:41 PM   
daintydimples


Posts: 967
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples

Note that the term "feminist" assume we all agree on the definition. I think we don't.

I have not read all the responses (sorry, Friday night and all)  -- but how I perceive the term "feminist' has nothing to do with female dominance. It has to do with female autonomy. It has to do with paying reverence to that part of yourself which is feminine (and so is not necessary gender based).


I hope you'll expand on that if time permits. It's wonderful to read you!

~porcelaine




Thank you, porcelaine. I enjoy your posts as well.

What I feel about being a feminist has to do with what I feel abut being female. For me, this is not political in the least. It is BIOLOGICAL.

Males and females are different, and it's not just our plumbing. We think differently; we feel differently. Science has proven our brains are wired.....differently.

That I am different from a male does not mean I am less....I am equal to any other human being on the planet. We all are.

That difference, in my mind, does not need to be a fundamental point of contention. We are meant to compliment one another.

However, our current culture (in the US) is leaning towards forcing women to act like men and forcing men to act like women. Females are told "they can have it all," meaning have a real career and raise children. Men are encouraged to "get in touch with their feminine side."

Although I firmly believe we are all a conglomerate, neither 100% male nor 100% female, this movement toward gender amalgamation is a huge mistake (in my opinion). We need those differences. It does not and never will mean we are not equal.

However, the (so called) "feminist movement" has seriously disappointed me. No thought was given to how these females who were "having it all" would actually raise their children. Who was going to care for them? The church? The government?

We now live in a society whose children are raised (for the most part) by television. I find this very disturbing.

I was born with a womb to give birth to children and breasts to feed them. I feel it is my birth right to care for my children. Again, this is not political, it is biological.

Does this mean I think men can't care for their children or that all females have to stay home and be care givers? Of course not! It means both aspects (female AND male) need to be addressed. I take the same amount of umbrage with those females who have a test tube baby knowing their child will never have a real biological father. Babies need their mother. They need their father, too.We need both those sexes, and not just to have children.

This is why I love BDSM. It is a wonderful vehicle in which you can celebrate all that is good and glorious in being a male, and in being a female.

I love being female. Therefore, I am a feminist.


_____________________________

Some soften by the forced reflection that comes from loss; others harden. Which are you?




(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 8:11:00 PM   
daintydimples


Posts: 967
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline
BUMP

_____________________________

Some soften by the forced reflection that comes from loss; others harden. Which are you?




(in reply to daintydimples)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/24/2010 9:47:07 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
I don't have a specific post to respond to at this point because there have been quite a few extremely interesting, thoughtful (and sometimes...shall we say frustrating) takes on the different angles of what feminism is and what men and women are. I just want to take a moment to re-emphasize what I said a bit earlier: you literally cannot make a mass generalization about women. I completely understand that some people find it sad and silly that we're encouraging women to "act like men" and have it all, and I completely understand that in some dynamics, the male is superior and that makes everyone very happy, but those of you who like and believe in those things need to understand that there is a world outside of you, and you cannot speak for all of us.

Here's the thing. That whole "men and women are different and complement each other" argument doesn't work. Sorry, daintydimples - I actually think you wrote a very nice post, and I hope you don't feel like I'm singling you out. A lot of people feel the way you do. The reason the argument doesn't work is because I can show you thousands of examples of women who have more typically masculine traits than thousands of men, and I can show you as many men who have more typically feminine traits. There is a fluidity to our defined gender roles that can and does find itself in a society where we're not working purely off primal instincts and the struggle for survival.

I'll give you a specific problem to the "women and men are just different and complement one another" argument. I have two moms, and they are both very much women, but they have a complete assortment of masculine and feminine traits that cover the gamut of what gender roles typically assign to families. They share decisions, responsibilities, raising a kid (well, in the past tense - obviously I'm an adult now) and everything else. No one is "typical," no one is uncomfortable with their responsibilities. They're just adults, happily, assertively, proudly living their lives. There is nothing on this green earth that a man could do in their relationship that they don't already cover. Lots of men are startled by how confident they are, actually, and how they don't smile and apologize the way women are trained from birth to do. They "act like men" in that we have ingrained in our heads that "being a man" is synonymous with confidence, assertiveness, aggressiveness, self-esteem, power and so on. But for them it's not an act - those are their inherent traits.

If we'll allow for lesbians to be more typically "masculine" in nature, why won't we allow it for straight women too? You can't sit there and say to me that women are being "forced" to go against our collective nature when I know dozens and dozens of women who are proud, confident and happy because they're able to focus on their careers and speak their minds and hold the attention of a room full of people by force of their presence. And if talking about other people isn't enough for you, I'd like to hold myself as an example: I am no simpering, sweet little thing. I dare you to find any man or woman on earth who is "superior" to me. By what standards would you judge? What is superiority? Intelligence? Capacity for wisdom? Physical strength? Who are you to say to me that I am not the equal of everyone around me?

And if I can tell you - very confidently - that I am not inferior to anyone, then surely there are other men and women who feel the same. And if there are any of us who feel that way, then you can't say "women are this" or "men are that" and ever be telling the truth. Because you don't speak for everyone. You're just speaking for yourself. And if you want to be inferior, I think you should go ahead and enjoy the hell out of it. But Leave. Me. Out. Of. It.

(in reply to daintydimples)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 1:23:31 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
Just a thought on the Modern Miss/Mz

PMS & GPS
Question: What do you get when you mix PMS with GPS ?
               

Answer: A crazy bitch who WILL find you!!!!!!!

Edited to add:
DISCLAIMER
:
The above was emailed to me from a close Domme who is an awesome Lady. 

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/25/2010 1:26:39 AM >


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 2:15:58 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
Hey jujubee,

I love your post. As I said in my first post (before I got "embroiled"), I do think that there is an anti-feminist movement, although I think it's nothing like as powerful as some would like to believe.

Yes, there's no doubting that there are physiological differences between the sexes, and yes, there's strong evidence to suggest that there are neurological differences too - Although, the science still has a very long way to go before it can really understand what these differences mean.

So, it isn't unfair to generalise and say "women tend to be less physically strong than men" - as long as you are capable of accepting that there are exceptions (I know a female bricklayer who can lay 400 bricks a day). But as you so rightly point out - that makes women different and not less.

It may (I say "may" because I've not seen any really detailed research on the topic) also be fair to say that in general women are less aggressive than men - but again, that makes a feminine approach to conflict different and not less.

There are elments of the anti-feminist movement that try to take these generalisations and argue that they imply that women have a "natural role" that is somehow subservient to men.

This is just stupid jack-assedness.

Now, like some of the other posters - I don't think that anything a woman does is an act of feminism. A woman's choice to submit or dominate isn't an "act of feminism" in itself. The "act" is orthogonal to the philosophy.

A feminist can choose to submit - the choice, and the submission aren't feminist - the fact that she can choose whether to submit or not is the key.

So... if a woman embraces a particular lifestyle, and let's take Gor as an example, I have no concerns at all if she chooses to play a submissive role - if submission works for her then that's lovely. But if she then concludes that "all women should play a submissive role" then she's wrong (I'd go further and say "stupid and wrong").

If a man embraces a particular lifestyle, and why not stick with Gor, and decides that for him he wants to play a dominant role, that's fine too - that's not anti-feminist in itself. But if he then attempts to sell the idea that his way is the "right one", that "the natural order" is for men (in general) to be dominant towards women (in general), then he's a jackass.



< Message edited by crazyml -- 7/25/2010 2:16:47 AM >


_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 100
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.133