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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 9:38:53 AM   
solestria


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Jujubee: Very well said, and agreed all around.  I think there's far more variation among individuals than there is divide along gender lines for any given trait.

crazyml: "A feminist can choose to submit - the choice, and the submission aren't feminist - the fact that she can choose whether to submit or not is the key."

Definitely, although I think the way she chooses to submit will be impacted by her feminism.  At least, it certainly works that way for me; but my submission itself is only feminist insofar as I'm a feminist even in my submission.

< Message edited by solestria -- 7/25/2010 9:39:27 AM >

(in reply to crazyml)
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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 10:50:09 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples

That difference, in my mind, does not need to be a fundamental point of contention. We are meant to compliment one another.

However, our current culture (in the US) is leaning towards forcing women to act like men and forcing men to act like women. Females are told "they can have it all," meaning have a real career and raise children. Men are encouraged to "get in touch with their feminine side."

Although I firmly believe we are all a conglomerate, neither 100% male nor 100% female, this movement toward gender amalgamation is a huge mistake (in my opinion). We need those differences. It does not and never will mean we are not equal.


I have often mentioned that I wanted a man that is my complement. I believe the differences are fine and they fit together nicely. I often see this from a non Western perspective and believe it is articulated perfectly in Eastern teachings. For me, the divergent parts become one when they're joined. I wrote about this the other day on another site and referenced why women with dominant personalities have trouble finding partners. She's forsaken the softer elements that men find pleasing to be a ball breaker. On the other end there are those that never uncovered their tough girl and they could use a bit of strengthening as well. However, our perception of strength negates the fact that there are different manifestations. It doesn't always require force. There is a beauty found in quiet resiliency.

quote:

However, the (so called) "feminist movement" has seriously disappointed me. No thought was given to how these females who were "having it all" would actually raise their children. Who was going to care for them? The church? The government?

We now live in a society whose children are raised (for the most part) by television. I find this very disturbing.


Having it all means making some serious sacrifices. I've raised a child and had a career simultaneously. I also taught her at home and instilled important values in her that have served me well over the years. She was taught to survive and succeed, but not at the expense of those aspects of her persona that would make her unapproachable and intimidating to all. Balancing the two is a necessity and knowing ones worth is a must. I poured a lot into her, but I gave up a lot in the process to make her the woman she's become. She was the priority.

quote:

This is why I love BDSM. It is a wonderful vehicle in which you can celebrate all that is good and glorious in being a male, and in being a female.


I believe I have found a greater appreciation for men through my BDSM experiences. The corporate world harnessed what I had and made it razor sharp. It is an interesting contrast to what I explore in this lifestyle. In many respects I have every reason to be on the other side of the whip. I can do it with my eyes closed. Yet I choose to yield and allow another person to take the lead instead. Slavery allows me to bring both aspects together and to share them with my partner. I have never felt that the path was for the meek, and my tenacity and unwillingness to fail has served me well. But the genteel aspect of my femininity was never lost. I didn't forsake those womanly elements that invite a man's attention or rebuke him for wanting to be a gentleman either.

While I've never labeled myself as a feminist, I have always been an advocate for the furtherance of women in society. I approach it from the perspective of noblesse oblige and believe I'm obligated to strengthen the chain. However, that cannot and will never be at the expense of trampling a man merely because of his gender. That would only serve to weaken the very thing I'm trying to improve in the long run. The ramifications of my behavior will be levied on another woman.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 11:22:11 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
There is a beauty found in quiet resiliency.


And a strength . . . to say otherwise would be to say that Gandhi was a weakling!

quote:

While I've never labeled myself as a feminist, I have always been an advocate for the furtherance of women in society.


It's a crying shame, though no surprise, to read such a line.  The words 'feminism' and 'feminist' have been soiled so badly - sometimes by feminists themselves, but more often by their opponents. 

The truth is that a person who is an advocate for the furtherance of women in society is, by definition, a feminist. 

Hell, does that word need some reclaiming!  Homosexuals reclaimed the word 'queer', black people - arguably - even reclaimed the 'N word' to a certain degree (Or so I hear.  That seems be more the case in the USA than this side of the pond.)   I can imagine certain people being happier to call themselves 'queers', or 'N . . .s', than they would to call themselves feminists.  What a sorry state of affairs!

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 11:26:06 AM   
Yourscum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I'd probably be considered part of that anti feminist wave, because I think in it's current incarnation feminism is either utterly meaningless ("anything a woman chooses to do is feminist"), no longer needed ("feminism is about being able to work outside the home and vote") or completely batshit insane ("men are the root of all evil and if we lived in a female run society there would be no war" or some shit) so I'll try to answer your question.





I agree the term feminist has become so over generalized, it's lost meaning. I think if someone like Susan B Anthony could be brought back for a day, she'd be very disappointed with where feminism is at today, although I'm sure she'd be happy to see the progress women have made since her time.

Like many here, I think a lot of the backlash for feminism comes from the extremists. The loudest voices don't have to be in the majority to get the majority of attention. Feminists like Wurtzel say things like,

"I intend to scream, shout, race the engine, call when I feel like it, throw tantrums in Bloomingdale's if I feel like it and confess intimate details about my life to complete strangers. I intend to do what I want to do and be whom I want to be and answer only to myself: that is, quite simply, the bitch philosophy."

When you start glorifying the idea of being the worst human being you possibly can, reasonable people are going to be turned off to your ideas.

< Message edited by Yourscum -- 7/25/2010 11:48:19 AM >

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 11:46:37 AM   
Yourscum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
There is a beauty found in quiet resiliency.


And a strength . . . to say otherwise would be to say that Gandhi was a weakling!

quote:

While I've never labeled myself as a feminist, I have always been an advocate for the furtherance of women in society.


The truth is that a person who is an advocate for the furtherance of women in society is, by definition, a feminist. 



I find it interesting you used the phrase the furtherance of women in society. I'm doubt you meant it this way but the way that's written sounds like you don't feel feminism is about equality, just he furtherance of women.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 12:18:07 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourscum

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
There is a beauty found in quiet resiliency.


And a strength . . . to say otherwise would be to say that Gandhi was a weakling!

quote:

While I've never labeled myself as a feminist, I have always been an advocate for the furtherance of women in society.


The truth is that a person who is an advocate for the furtherance of women in society is, by definition, a feminist. 



I find it interesting you used the phrase the furtherance of women in society. I'm doubt you meant it this way but the way that's written sounds like you don't feel feminism is about equality, just he furtherance of women.


The terminology I used was intentional, as I originally commented that I view this from the perspective of noblesse oblige that has nothing to do with feminism as a whole, but helping the less fortunate. My experiences with various groups over the course of my lifetime have benefited both sexes. However, I am a woman and I have been the recipient of many things through perseverance, my upbringing, and the actions of those that came before me. The principles of duty were instilled in me. And while my parents did not suggest that I must direct them towards a specific gender, doing was a necessity.

Comfort was a privilege and the sufferance of others should never be overlooked. Those are the tenets that I adhere to and the same I ingrained in my daughter. To presume that I am a feminist merely because the improvement of those less endowed is of personal importance is pretty short-sighted. Does that imply that advocating for the arts makes one an artist? Or merely an enthusiast that supports the cause instead? While I can understand the perspective shown in the comments presented, we must never forget that's what applicable to one may be in opposition to another. What you term feminism is inaccurately defined and is truthfully philanthropy instead.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Yourscum)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 2:11:03 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourscum

I find it interesting you used the phrase the furtherance of women in society. I'm doubt you meant it this way but the way that's written sounds like you don't feel feminism is about equality, just he furtherance of women.



I work on the assumption that women are, by and large, in a position where they haven't yet achieved equality.  When I talk of the 'furtherance of women in society', the full-length version would be 'the furtherance of women towards equality in society'.

_____________________________

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 2:29:59 PM   
crazyml


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Hey porcelaine,

Ya know, I think you may be subconsciously a feminist ;-)

The analogy you used doesn't quite work..


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Does that imply that advocating for the arts makes one an artist? Or merely an enthusiast that supports the cause instead? While I can understand the perspective shown in the comments presented, we must never forget that's what applicable to one may be in opposition to another. What you term feminism is inaccurately defined and is truthfully philanthropy instead.

~porcelaine



Does advocating woman's rights make one a woman? Or a feminist?

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 2:53:18 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

Comfort was a privilege and the sufferance of others should never be overlooked. Those are the tenets that I adhere to and the same I ingrained in my daughter. To presume that I am a feminist merely because the improvement of those less endowed is of personal importance is pretty short-sighted. Does that imply that advocating for the arts makes one an artist? Or merely an enthusiast that supports the cause instead? While I can understand the perspective shown in the comments presented, we must never forget that's what applicable to one may be in opposition to another. What you term feminism is inaccurately defined and is truthfully philanthropy instead.


porcelaine,

A good, working definition of feminism is 'the furtherance of the tenets of freedom and equality, applied to a special case - that of women'.   You may well like to use the terms philanthropy, or even noblesse oblige - they'll do, for a certain 'take' on what feminism may be for many.  (Perhaps a more conservative take - that of a Disraeli, maybe - that 19th Century Conservative prime minister who is still often regarded as the most socially-reforming PM the UK's ever had.  The phrase 'noblesse oblige' is now inextricably connected to his name, here.) 

This all may sound like a broad definition - but we have to ask, why does it sound broad?  It's a standard tactic by the opponents of a movement to try to associate all the adherents of that movement with its worst examples.  I think the man-(or woman)-in-the-street's idea of what feminism 'is' has indeed become that much narrower, shudder-inducing version.  The academic idea of 'what feminism is' is, as you might imagine, a great deal broader.  

But, really, none of that matters.  It's up to you and I - not the academics, not the political parties, not the media, and most definitely not the enemies of the feminist movement, to define it.  There's a lot of work to do because the descendants of those who sneered at the suffragettes as 'monstrous hordes of women'  have, by now, pretty much got their definition of feminism established as 'the only definition that matters'.   At the same time, the movements - the ideologies - that they favour remain well-defended, no matter how many nasty little examples have cropped up over the decades.  Thus, Feminism is still, in the public's perception, associated with a few of the most firebrand examples of writing (often suitably distorted, natch) of the most radical thinkers and activists of the 1980s.  On the other hand, in the UK, political Conservatism has somehow shifted massively such that it's no longer associated with Thatcherism.  Likewise, the far left of the Labour Party are assumed some not to matter any more.  Why the difference? 

'Feminism' is a dirty word.  It doesn't need trashing, though - it needs washing.   There's little point in taking the easier way out - that of it trashing it - because whatever new term that you use to describe your movement for a better world will, itself, get dirtied in exactly the same way.  So, for instance . . . you aspire to be a philanthropist?  Upset too many people, and you'll become, instead, 'a do-gooder'. 

_____________________________

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 3:13:54 PM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

'Feminism' is a dirty word.  It doesn't need trashing, though - it needs washing.  


Bravo.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 5:19:40 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

porcelaine,

A good, working definition of feminism is 'the furtherance of the tenets of freedom and equality, applied to a special case - that of women'.   You may well like to use the terms philanthropy, or even noblesse oblige - they'll do, for a certain 'take' on what feminism may be for many.


So it can't be philanthropy because who says? And you're able to substantiate that ideology how? And everyone that lives according to these principles that provides assistance to causes that benefit women and families are feminists? I think you're drawing a pretty wide margin on that one. My sense of duty has nothing to do with feminism and is directly related to what my parents instilled and my desire to see others have the same benefits I did.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 5:23:55 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Hey porcelaine,

Ya know, I think you may be subconsciously a feminist ;-)

The analogy you used doesn't quite work..


Or maybe it's easier for you to think of me as such. Is the other idea too difficult to swallow? I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why the difference must be scrutinized.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 5:29:38 PM   
MMercurial


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aI'm not going to read the postings on this topic, just take note:

feminism is the hatred of women.  The long drawn out effect of feminism, and it's direct corollary, the sexual revolution, is to trash women's lives and their happiness, and thus to trash men's lives and their happiness, and most importantly! to trash children's lives, period.  If I had a better keyboard, I'd elaborate.

Gloria Steinem would be the first to tell you, she had a dysfunctional childhood, she basically took care of her mentally ill mother by herself, in a rat-infested home, for YEARS.  She didn't even attend elementary and high school on a regular basis.  Her family more or less abandoned her and her mother.  Then, when a man wanted to marry her, and she was pregnant, the thought of any responsibility for someone else was too much for her.  She wanted her freedom.  Given her past, I don't blame her.  She had an abortion.

She foisted her sickness on the culture at large.  A person with such a grossly dysfunctional childhood should have no influence on our culture, only our compassion and mercy.

< Message edited by MMercurial -- 7/25/2010 5:36:45 PM >

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 5:34:41 PM   
Aynne88


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Wow...you are kind of fucked up about women right? That is the most misconstrued and incorrect post I have read in a while. Sad really.

Ohhh edited to add..you have no profile either. Rock on sad man.

< Message edited by Aynne88 -- 7/25/2010 5:38:21 PM >


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 5:39:56 PM   
MMercurial


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
Wow...you are kind of fucked up about women right? 


Hmm... Let's see....  "fucked up".... such lady-like language -- when talking about women.....  If the feminists' goal was to improve women, they either failed, or they succeeded.  They think this kind of language by a female is an improvement.  I disagree.

So little class, so little time.....

< Message edited by MMercurial -- 7/25/2010 5:41:43 PM >

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 5:44:43 PM   
smartsub10


Posts: 865
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MMercurial

aI'm not going to read the postings on this topic, just take note:

feminism is the hatred of women.  The long drawn out effect of feminism, and it's direct corollary, the sexual revolution, is to trash women's lives and their happiness, and thus to trash men's lives and their happiness, and most importantly! to trash children's lives, period.  If I had a better keyboard, I'd elaborate.

Gloria Steinem would be the first to tell you, she had a dysfunctional childhood, she basically took care of her mentally ill mother by herself, in a rat-infested home, for YEARS.  She didn't even attend elementary and high school on a regular basis.  Her family more or less abandoned her and her mother.  Then, when a man wanted to marry her, and she was pregnant, the thought of any responsibility for someone else was too much for her.  She wanted her freedom.  Given her past, I don't blame her.  She had an abortion.

She foisted her sickness on the culture at large.  A person with such a grossly dysfunctional childhood should have no influence on our culture, only our compassion and mercy.


You can't possibly be serious in this belief.   Where do you believe happiness lies for all women?


_____________________________

Beauty fades...stupid is forever
~ Judge Judith Scheindlin
____________________________________________

“Be that self which one truly is" ~Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 5:46:37 PM   
Aynne88


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First of all I never claimed to want to be ladylike, I am a woman. You can keep your definitions of ladylike to yourself thanks. I don't believe that using profantity has any bearing on my intellectual capacity. Nice try.

I am sorry that you obviously have an issue with women and with outspoken ones at that. Good luck with finding your doormat hon. Feminism is not anything to be afraid of and once you realize that you may be able to come to terms with your misogynistic attitudes towards the female gender. Oh and since you don't have a profile I can't comment on what or who you are, but I am willing to bet you are perchance single?

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 5:48:06 PM   
Elisabella


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RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 5:48:51 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: smartsub10

quote:

ORIGINAL: MMercurial

aI'm not going to read the postings on this topic, just take note:

feminism is the hatred of women.  The long drawn out effect of feminism, and it's direct corollary, the sexual revolution, is to trash women's lives and their happiness, and thus to trash men's lives and their happiness, and most importantly! to trash children's lives, period.  If I had a better keyboard, I'd elaborate.

Gloria Steinem would be the first to tell you, she had a dysfunctional childhood, she basically took care of her mentally ill mother by herself, in a rat-infested home, for YEARS.  She didn't even attend elementary and high school on a regular basis.  Her family more or less abandoned her and her mother.  Then, when a man wanted to marry her, and she was pregnant, the thought of any responsibility for someone else was too much for her.  She wanted her freedom.  Given her past, I don't blame her.  She had an abortion.

She foisted her sickness on the culture at large.  A person with such a grossly dysfunctional childhood should have no influence on our culture, only our compassion and mercy.


You can't possibly be serious in this belief.   Where do you believe happiness lies for all women?



He doesn't care apparently. Ick.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to smartsub10)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: The Anti-Feminism Bias - 7/25/2010 5:52:22 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella





lol...remember when we used to fight! You are too cute!.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 120
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