RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 6:37:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Would it have been ok for us to build a Harry Truman tribute in Hiroshima?

Women and children were killed there as well. An impact was left so large that the country will never forget it. How is this different?


A mosque is not a fucking tribute to bin-laden.Real bad analogy.

And so were Muslims killed that day.

One of the death cult`s goals was to radicalize us into changing our way of life and our values.To the extent we do,they win.

Another goal was to drive a wedge between moderate, average Muslims and the westerners.The people wanting the mosque are moderates and want to use the mosque as a cultural center to bring the religions(and their moderates) together.

This was the point behind building a mosque in the Pentagon,the other place attacked on 9/11 with ground just as hallowed as Manhattan`s.

We would be playing into their(bin-laden`s death cult) hands by denying religious freedom to Muslims here.It would be a great victory for them.

Let`s not give them that satisfaction.

We are bigger than they are.We don`t stoop to their level.We represent freedom of religion and we shouldn`t allow anyone to degrade that.It`s not conditional.




BoiJen -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 6:49:07 AM)

HA! American's weren't friendly to Muslims before 9/11. 9/11 Just brought our attention to the ugly.

To believe that America was really a religiously tolerant group of folks is just foolish. The nation as a whole in terms of social-economic class and legislation is Christian based. To ignore that, leaves those of us who aren't Christian vulnerable.

boi




Owner59 -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 6:51:23 AM)

You`re wrong.On every point.

I have no doubt tho that those are your feelings.




charlestonscmilk -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 6:52:52 AM)

When Tim McViegh blow up the Federal building in Oklahoma City, no one condemned all Christians. He professed his Christianity.
Wide swathes of people did not suddenly think that churches were breeding grounds for terrorists.
Why? Because in America, we are only scared of terrorists if they are dark.
There are several million Muslims in this country.
They are peaceful, law abiding citizens and many Muslim families have been here for hundreds of years.
In my city of Charleston, SC, the first Muslims arrived in 1753. 1753. There is a lovely Mosque here. The Muslims go about their business as all regular citizens do.
Why?
Because they ARE regular citizens.
Posting snippets of a story from the NY Times, hoping that someone will try to take in the FACTS.
"...
Feeding the resistance (to Muslims and the erecting of new Mosques) is a growing cottage industry of authors and bloggers — some of them former Muslims — who are invited to speak at rallies, sell their books and testify in churches. Their message is that Islam is inherently violent and incompatible with America.

But they have not gone unanswered. In each community, interfaith groups led by Protestant ministers, Catholic priests, rabbis and clergy members of other faiths have defended the mosques. Often, they have been slower to organize than the mosque opponents, but their numbers have usually been larger.

The mosque proposed for the site near ground zero in Lower Manhattan cleared a final hurdle last week before the city’s Landmarks Preservation Commission, and Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg hailed the decision with a forceful speech on religious liberty. While an array of religious groups supported the project, opponents included the Anti-Defamation League, an influential Jewish group, and prominent Republicans like Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker.

Islam did not bomb the World Trade Center. Yes, it's true that the men responsible were islamic radicals. Now imagine that Catholic or Protestant radicals had planned and carried out the World Trade Center. Would anyone try to prevent a Catholic or Protestant church being built near the World Trade Center site? I think not.

"As someone wrote recently, "Moslems should have the right to build mosques in Europe when Christians and Jews and Buddhists will have the right to build their places of worship in Saudi Arabia" and I agree with this position."

Look here, that is the most asinine and ignorant statement that has been repeated by many posters here...just asinine.

The United States does not engage in stupid "if you [insert country] do this we will allow that too" policy. The United States' values and freedoms are far different from the countries that you and the other like-minded ignorant posters have discussed. The United States' doesn't engage in doling out its values and freedoms based on what other countries allow. No, our values and freedoms are available to all that live within our sovereign control regardless of whatever any other country allows or does to allow.

So it absolutely doesn't matter whether Saudi Arabia will allow Christian churches to be built or not. We, the United States, grant Muslims (and all people) the same rights and freedoms to do whatever is legal and constitutional within the sovereign bounds of the United States.

The United States doesn't based its values and freedoms on what other countries do or don't do within their own sovereign control. Period.




Owner59 -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 6:57:56 AM)

Thanks for the heavy lifting,charlestonscmilk.

Well put.





BoiJen -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 7:00:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

You`re wrong.On every point.

I have no doubt tho that those are your feelings.


You seriously believe that prior to 9/11 there little or no anti-Muslim sentiment in the U.S?




Owner59 -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 7:07:14 AM)

No,didn`t say it wasn`t here.Has been and always will.


I`m not for throwing gasoline on it either.


Because bigotry exists is no reason to continue it,promote or excuse it.




BoiJen -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 7:10:06 AM)

I'm not for throwing gasoline on it either. What I'm saying is that if OBL's goals were to drive a wedge then he didn't need to take down the towers, as you stated. The wedge was already there.

boi




GotSteel -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 7:22:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

HA! American's weren't friendly to Muslims before 9/11. 9/11 Just brought our attention to the ugly.

To believe that America was really a religiously tolerant group of folks is just foolish. The nation as a whole in terms of social-economic class and legislation is Christian based. To ignore that, leaves those of us who aren't Christian vulnerable.

We are so not a christian nation.




Owner59 -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 7:23:29 AM)

Ok.Agreed.I see your point.

He wanted to widen it and make it worse.Let`s be bigger.Let`s be "forgiving"?Let`s be gracious.Let`s not go down more(than we already are as you pointed out)to their level.

He also wanted us(a Christian nation as you said) to invade a Muslim nation,kill lots of Muslims and get dragged down into the mud.bin-laden got that one,mission accomplished.

And he wanted those things to make the world worse.Satan itself couln`t do a better job of clusterfucking the world.

You know those crazy white supremacists and manson followers who dream of starting a race war and revolution in America,with them eventually ruling everything?

That`s what bin-laden is.Let`s not play his game.

This is a few kooks in the woods folks.Let`s make him that.





Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 7:41:51 AM)

This is fucking nutz by both the Christian right wing and those trying to erect a Mosque there. Clearly the peace loving Islamic Community has expressed itself very well already. There is no need to take it to this level. The Right wing christians, Grrrr.. I'd wish Jesus would come for real, kick ass and clean up the house a little.




Owner59 -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 8:22:49 AM)

This is not a mosque per se.It`s more of a Muslim version of a YMCA.The building is there and won`t change.And it`s two city blocks away.That could be a 1/4 mile or more.It`s not ground zero.

The plans were a community center with a gym,pool,cafeteria,babystiing,etc. as well as places to bring cultures together and build mutual understanding.And yes, a room to pray.It would be no more than a chapel in a YMCA or temple in a YWHA.


There is not going to be a minaret and loud speakers called folks to prayer.Non-Muslims are welcomed.

These are the liberals,the moderates.They are also the primary victims of bin-laden`s death cult.They are fighting the jihadis too and dying too.These are the good guys.The ones we need to defeat bin-laden types and radicals.


On the Colbert Report a Yale law professor named Akhil Amar came on to talk about the 14th amendment brew ha ha when Colbert asked 1st,"isn`t it a little callous to have a Muslim sounding name this close to ground zero?"


http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/343698/august-10-2010/citizenship-down---akhil-amar




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 9:47:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It`s religious bigotry no matter how well intentioned the protesters are.


Just how do we change the 1st Amendment to to cover a situation like this?


There`s freedom of religion if a majority approves of it?


Shortly after the Pentagon was attacked,they(under bush) built a Mosque right inside the Pentagon.


Where`s the moral outrage over this?


Is our military a bunch of Islam loving peace-nicks?


I don`t think so.


So how far away from ground zero is acceptable to the moral high-grounders? 4 city blocks? 6? Anywhere above Canal Street?


"That being said, there's a certain callousness in building a Mosque so close to the site of a crime supposedly committed in the name of Islam."


This is another way of saying that all Muslims are responsible and are to be punished for the acts of a few nutty Muslim death cultists.


We are bigger that that.







The 1st amendment doesnt have a thing to do with it.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/11/2010 9:50:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


These are the liberals,the moderates.They are also the primary victims of bin-laden`s death cult.They are fighting the jihadis too and dying too.These are the good guys.The ones we need to defeat bin-laden types and radicals.




Bullshit. Compared to you he may be a moderate, but when he says the US was an accomplice to 9/11 and refuses to recgonize that Hamas is a terrorist organization, he is no longer a moderate. Now listen to a real Muslim moderate's position.

She knows exactly what it is and why its inappropriate




GotSteel -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/12/2010 5:08:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
The 1st amendment doesnt have a thing to do with it.

Really?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/billofrights

Are you sure about that?




thishereboi -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/12/2010 5:52:07 AM)

quote:

When Tim McViegh blow up the Federal building in Oklahoma City, no one condemned all Christians. He professed his Christianity.
Wide swathes of people did not suddenly think that churches were breeding grounds for terrorists.
Why? Because in America, we are only scared of terrorists if they are dark.


Actually I think that had more to do with the fact the christians don't have the reputation for suicide bombers and terrorism. But if it makes you feel better to call someone a racist, go for it. It seems to be the word of the day lately.[8|]




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/12/2010 6:11:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
You seriously believe that prior to 9/11 there little or no anti-Muslim sentiment in the U.S?

Actually, the Islamic religion has been/was growing in the US before 9/11. I'm really uncertain where it stands at the moment now. In regards to ant-Muslim sentiment it was strongly connected with the Right Wing Christains before 9/11.

I believe that it would be BEST or better to simply establish a 9/11 center for everybody as a memorial. Have organizations from Islamic, Christian and none seculars contribute to it. Pretty equal concept (no fighting or pissing matches need to arise).




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/12/2010 6:35:36 AM)

The Taliban is the result of US policy backfire from both the Carter and Reagan Admistration years. At the time we were against the Soviet Union fighting the cold war. While Carter dabbled in it, Reagan took it to another level. Case in point where both Parties had there hand in this mess that was created.

Anyways, our policy simply resulted in a big backfire or blowback in our faces. 9/11 occured. This is and was far about way more besides some mere religious attack.

In fact, the world trade center was an attack on our economic system. This resulted in shaking things up and afterwards those Companies that were playing a shady or shaky game started to fall. It's pretty amazing how the number of trouble corperations have come to light, one after another since. A sort of Domino effect.

9/11 was an attack right at the heart of our system of Capitalism. A system that clearly was and has been playing in some shady areas for awhile now. Please do not get me wrong, I'm all for Capitalism however it needs to be refined, restructured and tweaked.

If we had been playing a tighter more well put together game of capitalism, 9/11 would not have had the far reaching domino effects that it has.

The Taliban did not attack a religious target. If they sincerely were against Christianity they might have attacked the Holy City in Italy.

The 9/11 attack was not a religious attack, is what I'm trying to express.




Moonhead -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/12/2010 7:03:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Actually I think that had more to do with the fact the christians don't have the reputation for suicide bombers and terrorism.

Ever heard of Northern Ireland? Car bombs rather suicide bombs, but they're bloody good at terrorism. Belfast has quite a reputation for that.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Christian right prepares itself for another day in the trenches (8/12/2010 8:10:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
The 1st amendment doesnt have a thing to do with it.

Really?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/billofrights

Are you sure about that?



Yes, Im sure about that.




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