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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 6:17:46 PM

PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne
I choose to err on the side of distributing costs to the people better able to handle them. It's my secret commie side.

Very neat turn of phrase. I know I'll have a use for it someday - can I borrow it?

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:12:30 PM

laurell3

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ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I don't mean to derail.... really I DON'T...

The thing is, there is a LONG time poster here, Ron, or mnotertail as his nice reads.

He has the exact same avatar as you.... and it is kinda fuckin' me up.

I have no right to ask, but might you ponder changing yours?

Note to self...... Make Avatar an Angry Ant Eater to confuse Jeff into thinking he is crazy.

QSM

He already knows he's crazy.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:17:15 PM

thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

It's trickier than that, Jen-whether or not something qualifies as a lie by omission depends on whether the person being lied to has a 'right' to the information omitted (whatever 'having a right' means...)

I would think that someone who is contemplating sleeping with another has a right to know if the person they are going to sleep with has a penis or a pussy.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:18:13 PM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

It's trickier than that, Jen-whether or not something qualifies as a lie by omission depends on whether the person being lied to has a 'right' to the information omitted (whatever 'having a right' means...)

I would think that someone who is contemplating sleeping with another has a right to know if the person they are going to sleep with has a penis or a pussy.

I might be wrong, but I don't think we were talking exclusively about sexual relationships at that point.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:20:12 PM

Jeffff

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Ok maybe not..... but what if the casual cup of coffee leads to greater interest?

I don't know what the right thing to do is. I just know how I would feel if I were mislead.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:21:09 PM

thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I have another question, so please bear with me. Ok, so you have a person who is a post-op trans person. At one point in hir life, that person was of a different gender than the one xhe currently lives as, and xhe's gone through all of the work to have all the pieces and parts resolved so that, for all practical purposes, xhe is fully actualized in the gender to which xhe identifies.... None of the parties involved are planning on having children, so the issue of fertility is off the table... so here's the hypothetical question...

WHY does it matter what gender this person once was? I can sort of understand the people who would have problems with a pre-op trans person who, although mentally and emotionally living as the gender to which xhe identifies, and presenting as the gender to which xhe identifies, still has external sexual characteristics of the former gender. I can see how this would be problematic for some folks, and how it might cause worlds to rock a bit if things weren't explained and people given the opportunity to choose whether to continue the involvement... but once the change is complete, and the individual is, in all relevant ways, existing as the gender to which xhe identifies, why should it matter that xhe was once a -different- gender, as there is NO reason that I can think of why it would make any difference whatsoever.

I thought about it long and hard last night, and realized that, if I knew someone, and cared about hir, even if I were to find out that xhe was, at one point, a different gender, and even if we were -intimate-, I think that isn't even a question I'd worry about -asking-. If xhe was a pre-op, I might want to know, just because of needing to plan for the dichotomy, and I'd want to know how xhe felt about different practices that might show up the discrepancy during our... recreation... but other than that, why care?

Calla

That would certainly change things for me. Although if we got close and she didn't feel she could be honest, I would wonder what I had done to make her feel she couldn't.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:23:55 PM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I don't know what the right thing to do is.

Chasing the 'right thing to do' in this situation is a mug's game, IMO. It depends on the people, it depends how open the rest of their communication is, how forward with each other they are, how quickly they move, how safe they make each other feel, how much emphasis they place on knowing each others' secrets how soon...

Going but what if if if if... like this won't bring up a definitive right answer, no matter how many circles we go round in.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:34:52 PM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
Chasing the 'right thing to do' in this situation is a mug's game, IMO. It depends on the people, it depends how open the rest of their communication is, how forward with each other they are, how quickly they move, how safe they make each other feel, how much emphasis they place on knowing each others' secrets how soon...

Going but what if if if if... like this won't bring up a definitive right answer, no matter how many circles we go round in.

I'm pretty stubborn. It isn't an "if" for Me.

Let's say that you meet someone. You look at the third finger of their left hand and notice that there is no wedding ring. You have no reason to believe the person is married and you ask them out. How long should it take them to tell you that they are married. On the first date? After you've begun a relationship with them? After you get to the point where sleeping with you is a possibility? Where does the responsibility lie?

I'm betting that "are you married" is asked a lot more often than "are you trans".

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:40:11 PM

Jeffff

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I agree.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:40:24 PM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

I choose to err on the side of distributing costs to the people better able to handle them. It's my secret commie side.

Aren't you making an assumption that the cisgender partner *is* able to better handle it, though? I mean, that's a hell of a thing to find out suddenly down the line. I like to think I'd react well, but that's at least partly because I've had lots of positive exposure to the trans community, both here and IRL-not everyone has that.

I am very much making that assumption. We're talking about general rules here, so there's a broad range of factors that may or may not be in play in each situation. And the emotional resilience of the parties will vary. I'm not factoring in any potential threat to the physical safety of the cis person upon disclosure, and that from the start weighs the analysis in favor of protecting the interest of the trans person. I've never heard of it being a safety issue for the cis person, although I'm sure there's a case somewhere -- given that a small percentage of humans think that murder is an acceptable response to romantic rejection. Sadly, a somewhat larger percentage think that murder is an acceptable response to an unwanted expression of romantic interest made outside of heteronormative rules.

The potential emotional harm for each party is obviously a closer question and far more difficult to track since we don't keep numbers on it like we do on violent crimes. The way I've framed it (which no doubt would crumble under the weight of a thousand different stories, but again, general rules here), the first order issue for the trans person is "I am who I think I am," and the first order issue (as presented here) for the cis person is "This person is not who I thought she was." Now, it wouldn't be at all surprising for the cis person to have the second order issue of "What does it say about me and my judgment that I have been deceived?" And of course the really scary cis response is "does this mean I'm queer and should I destroy the evidence of my arguably queer affection?" I don't think we have any "homosexual panic" candidates here (ok, probably on the board, but definitely not in this discussion), so we can set aside the scary response. But the way I'm imagining it the area of concern is focused on the trans person's identity and honesty. That is the primary bone of contention and obviously that cuts a lot deeper for the trans person than the cis person. YMMV, but that's how I'm looking at in general.

I think it's important to give the cis person space to feel whatever it is they're going to feel. I'm not trying to deny people that. As a matter of preferences, any attraction I might feel for a guy like QSM (is it possible to use him as an example without being personal? I hope so. If not, sorry, dude.) would be negatively affected by the lack of sympathetic empathy demonstrated in his response to his friend. But I wouldn't say - oh, Mr. Widget, you're a bad person. I would note for my own purposes that Mr. Widget is not a person who has the qualities I require for emotional intimacy. The world is full of lovely people I don't want to be emotionally intimate with. If knowing what genitalia a person was born with were information I required, failure to provide that within a reasonable period of time would result in me thinking "I can't trust you because you didn't trust me." I don't think it's necessary or fair to expand it beyond that into the realm of "you lied to me" or "I had a right to know that." As it is, I don't require that information. I suppose if it were really important to me, I'd add it to the list of things I don't assume and always ask about in a romantic context - e.g. are you married? Then if I'm dealing with FtM, I've communicated to him that I consider this information important and he can either decide he's comfortable telling me or he can lie and find some other escape route. I wouldn't blame him for lying to protect his privacy at that point. Yeah... I'd look weird asking every guy I date/fuck - hey, were you born with a vagina?! But if it's really important to me, why shouldn't I bear the burden, rather than pushing a societal norm that the trans person disclose up front?

I dunno, this stuff is hard.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:51:22 PM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
Chasing the 'right thing to do' in this situation is a mug's game, IMO. It depends on the people, it depends how open the rest of their communication is, how forward with each other they are, how quickly they move, how safe they make each other feel, how much emphasis they place on knowing each others' secrets how soon...

Going but what if if if if... like this won't bring up a definitive right answer, no matter how many circles we go round in.

I'm pretty stubborn. It isn't an "if" for Me.

Let's say that you meet someone. You look at the third finger of their left hand and notice that there is no wedding ring. You have no reason to believe the person is married and you ask them out. How long should it take them to tell you that they are married. On the first date? After you've begun a relationship with them? After you get to the point where sleeping with you is a possibility? Where does the responsibility lie?

I'm betting that "are you married" is asked a lot more often than "are you trans".

Funny, I was just using the same example for slightly different purposes. I think the responsibility rests with the person who doesn't want to be involved with a married partner. Not all married guys wear rings. And a lot of sneaky types will gladly let you assume from the absence of the ring but won't have the balls to flat out lie to your face if you ask. I've asked guys before who weren't wearing rings - practice tip -- they should answer "no," not just hold up their left hand to demonstrate the absence of a ring. Don't assume things that are important to you.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 7:59:23 PM

DomImus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne
I've asked guys before who weren't wearing rings - practice tip -- they should answer "no," not just hold up their left hand to demonstrate the absence of a ring. Don't assume things that are important to you.

So if I ask a woman if she was born a woman and she points to her Adam's Apple I remember your advice.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 8:11:03 PM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne
I've asked guys before who weren't wearing rings - practice tip -- they should answer "no," not just hold up their left hand to demonstrate the absence of a ring. Don't assume things that are important to you.

So if I ask a woman if she was born a woman and she points to her Adam's Apple I remember your advice.

See how easy it is!

And Peon, I'm not sure I can lay claim to the phrasing, but please do use at your leisure.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 10:37:03 PM

OttersSwim

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...

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 8/16/2010 10:57:45 PM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 11:52:46 PM

Zevar

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Greetings OttersSwim:

Ignorance is never sweet when dolled out due to unawareness on a subject. It is a shame that some folks simply do not understand that gender does not originate in the flesh. The flesh usually matches the internal dialogue that one has with their genuine self however gender originates as a mental factor. We mono-gendered folks do not need to continually view our bodies to reinforce our gender identity. Nor are we met with confusion as the mental gender identity always matches the physical formations.

When congruency is lacking there can become an ongoing conflicting dialogue which produces anxiety and leads to various manifestations of internal destructive dialoguing for those who do not have this needed congruency with their gender identity. The body usually matches the mental and internal knowing of gender identity for most folks. It is truly unfortunate that so many mono-gendered folks believe that those who are not mono-gendered are to fulfill inequitable expectations that mono-gendered folks do not have to meet.

I can only imagine that living as a trans person does not equate with a required initial vulnerability when first meeting other people. Nonetheless this foolish demand is put onto trans people by mono-gendered folks. I am embarrassed to acknowledge this being mono-gendered. No I do not share in those sort of unrealistic expectations. However many do and I find it to be unrealistic, at best.

Thank you for your bravery of speaking in a genuine manner about your life. I am in awe at the transparency you displayed throughout this thread. I wanted to say this before I sleep as it has been on my mind as I thought of this thread today & your dignified strength. I wish only the best to you and yours.

Take really good care of you!

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 1:37:46 AM

xkittenx

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ORIGINAL: BambiBoi

Hello Friends,

I am interested in how you define a gender. Specifically, I am interested in how people with strong orientations (straight/gay/lesbian) feel about when the line between gender roles and biological sex start to blur.

Biological sex being defined as which sex organs are possessed.
Gender roles being defined as activities which carry a stereotypical propensity to one gender or the other.

If you are a straight male, can you be attracted to a sufficiently feminine person who has a penis?
If you are a gay female attracted to more butch partners, how does that differ from being attracted to a man?

At what point for you, if any, does the reproductive organ stop mattering? When is a female so masculine she figures to you as a man? When is a man so feminine he is calculated as a girl?

Many will say "I fall in love with the person, not the body." That is fine too.

Bambi,

I used to be one of those people who fell in love with a person, not their body. When I was 19 or so I was fortunate enough to meet a poly group of people who took me under their wing(s) for about a year or so and I got to meet and play with a variety of genders. We did a lot of puppy play and sometimes the other submissive in the household would pretend to be my litter mate so I had a "brother" who was sometimes my "sister" and a Daddy who had a pussy instead of a cock. I was also encouraged to play around with my gender and so sometimes I was a boy puppy and sometimes a girl. It was fun and even though it was obviously sexual, the whole experience was pretty innocent for me.

We never really got into the terminology people use when discussing gender. I'll admit, I was never exposed to anything negative about it either. I didn't know that transgender people have it bad as they do. These things just never occurred to me. Otters, I read the articles you posted earlier in this thread. NO ONE deserves any of those things. I'm so sorry that people are so cruel and I appreciate you sharing those articles. Thank you. You really opened my eyes.

Five years ago my last formal D/s relationship ended. I was newly single and just trying to get back into the swing of things, dating a lot of different people and trying to decide what I wanted to do with myself. I met this dom here on CollarMe and we very quickly decided to start seeing each other. At first he seemed like a great guy and we had a lot of fun together. I wasn't ready to scene yet but he didn't seem to mind. We just enjoyed spending time together.

One night, after a Christmas party at his place, I was helping him clean up and he raped me. Afterward he acted like nothing had happened. I didn't know how to deal with that experience. I didn't know who I could talk to and I didn't want to report him to the police because he had a very young son and all I could think of was how awful it would be for that child to grow up knowing his father was a rapist. So I pretended like it didn't happen either.

After that, I stopped dating men. I didn't hate men or anything like that. I still had male friends. I just couldn't handle the idea of seeing or touching or being penetrated by a cock. It was purely about the genitalia. I was terrified of penis. So I dated girls and that went well for awhile.

I ended up developing this huge crush on this one girl I knew but I didn't think she would ever give me the time of day. She was just so pretty and funny and everyone loved her and she always had this crowd of people around her whenever I saw her. I confided in a mutual friend and he told her about my crush and the next day she asked me out. She told me that she'd always had a crush on me too but she thought I wasn't interested since I never approached her.

For three months we saw each other every single day. We told each other things we had never told anyone else. I told her about the rape and how it had changed me in so many ways. She expressed concern that I might someday get over my fear of men and go back to dating guys again and I told her I was happy with her and didn't want anyone else. We were making plans to move in together and had even talked about having children together and taking turns with the breast feeding so our kids would be equally bonded with both of us.

Then one night she sent me an email with a photo attached.

Up to this point I'd only seen her topless. We had only kissed and fooled around above the waist. She said she didn't want to push me since I was still so unsure about sex, even with girls. I didn't want to freak out and ruin everything so she suggested we just go slow and not worry about it, that it would happen naturally when we were both ready.

The photo was a nude image of a man with a HUGE cock. At first I was confused and couldn't figure out why she would send me something like that.

Then I noticed that this man had perfect breasts, my girlfriend's perfect breasts. He also had her long auburn hair and her eyes and her nose and her smile and the longer I stared at that photo, the more clear it became to me that my girlfriend was also the man in that photo. I cried off and on for the rest of that night. After a week of struggling with myself, I finally had to admit that I wasn't ready to be with someone who had a penis and as much as I cared for her, I had to end the relationship.

I understand that anyone who has gone through so much to become a woman after being born a man, doesn't want to have to explain to everyone she goes out with that once upon a time she used to be a he. But I also know how it feels to discover you were misled. She and I don't even speak anymore. I broke her heart when I ended our relationship over her genitalia but she broke mine when I found out she'd lied to me.

I'd like to end this post on a positive note. I have reached a point where I am dating a man so for the time being I self identify as a straight female submissive. I'm still not ready to have sex with him and lucky me, he's an understanding guy.

This thread has been really informative and interesting to me. I feel at least a little less ignorant than I did when I started reading it.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 1:41:37 AM

Caius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I don't see non-disclosure as a "lie". I see it as an omission. If we are having coffee, what is under my skirt is none of your business. If we are going back to my place to get intimate...now we almost certainly need to talk before we get hot and heavy! But are you going to feel "betrayed" because I did not tell you I had a dick before we had coffee?

Suppose he tries to steal kiss (or she, forgive me if I err here, but I haven't seen anything specific with regard to your orientation), do they then have cause to feel misled after the fact? Or would you always be self-possessed enough to prevent this, even if there was serious attraction on your part? I should probably add that I ask to play devil's advocate and because I'm genuinely interested where people draw the line here -- if indeed they can see a clearly defined line -- and not because I'm particularly paranoid of or offended by such possibilities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

As I said, there is defined danger in disclosure - at any point in the process.

I think this caveat bears repeating but not just as a caution about moving too fast but, also, in certain cases, of waiting too long. There are certain persons, volatile in these kinds of situations, who might walk away with "just" an offensive slur if told early enough but who might explode if they feel the situation has gotten intimate enough to threaten their sense of masculinity/straightness/what-have-you, or the perception of same amongst others. There have been some figures bandied about here (though I have yet to see their ultimate sources) concerning the annual number of violent attacks upon transgendered persons in recent years and I have to wonder how many of those concern sex workers and the wrong clueless or simply pathological John.

And before anyone -- not saying any names now ;) -- jumps to any conclusions, no I am not trying to draw a tacit connection between transgendered persons and prostitutes. It's just that there's enough people firmly in both categories that I could easily see at least half the figures proposed for attacks/deaths being the result of such scenarios, given the notable vulnerability of sex workers and the fact that they are likely to go farther faster. None of which is meant to downplay the very real risks I presume even the more common transgendered person can find themselves facing with garden variety dating.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 2:01:02 AM

Caius

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ORIGINAL: xkittenx

This thread has been really informative and interesting to me.

Well, I think it's become a whole lot more informative and interesting, and quite frankly poignant, for your contribution, kitten. I think your story powerfully underscores what many have tried to emphasize here concerning just how complicated the causes of certain reactions can be and that we need to be careful about jumping to conclusions about their ultimate source. And let me be the first to thank you for being willing to share such personal information for the sake of casting further light and perspective on the subject. I hope you've come as far as that act of openness suggests in overcoming the trauma you suffered. Certainly, I think you deserve a lot of admiration for the fact that you've decided to try to move beyond its lingering effects for the sake of love.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 2:06:14 AM

xkittenx

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Thank you, Caius. Thats very kind of you to say.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 2:21:44 AM

Caius