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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 3:41:55 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1152
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		When I was younger I lived with a bisexual man, he was heavily involved in the gay/lesbian community and from that I had the chance to meet two men who were in the process of changing their bodies to female.

I had no preconceptions about them or their sexuality, when I first met them I thought they were gay and it was only later as they started to change I realised what was happening, it didn’t bother me at all. What did bother me though was their attitude, both of them had huge chips on their shoulder and believed that their views were more important than anyone else’s. Their sexuality and gender became the most important and defining part of their lives, and it was that which put me off them both, along with their belief that to be a woman they had to be almost a caricature of a woman.

This almost caricature was something I had seen in the homosexual world a lot, men acting like drag queens and women swaggering around in men’s clothes as if the outward appearance was all there was. At the time it made me wonder why did they think they were women not men, was it a sexual kink or something more, because how can a man tell how a woman thinks or how can a woman tell how a man thinks, their hormones and chemistry along with physical differences such as different musculature and brain reactions means both have a different view of the world.

Some of these processes can be simulated by hormonal injections, but again this got me wondering if these processes could only be created by flooding them with hormones their bodies didn’t produce then how could they have considered themselves in the wrong body to start with, after all I could understand a man with a small feminine body who didn’t produce much testosterone saying he was female, or a woman who was large and who produced a lot of testosterone saying she felt more masculine, but when you were in a normal healthy body of one gender, with all the physical sensations and healthy reactions of that gender why are you in the wrong body and just not a man/woman with a sexual fetish and a same sex sexual orientation.

What made it worse for me was after they had all the surgery, they still were not happy, they had everything they said they wanted but it still wasn’t enough. So for me it is not something I doubt I will ever understand unless there is medical evidence that shows such as hermaphroditism, extra chromosomes or a hormone imbalance.

As for society I personally don’t believe that society’s beliefs change overnight, it takes time and today’s in-prisonable offence (IE homosexuality or votes for women) is tomorrows “just normal”. But while the idea is so new many will not under any circumstances embrace it and expecting them to, expecting to be able to force your views on anyone is an exercise in futility.

Cheryl

(in reply to Caius)
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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 5:22:24 AM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		The second one from the left, on Tuesdays, unless it rains...

What? i thought there was no wrong answer!

pam

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 6:10:48 AM   
thishereboi


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Status: offline 		Maybe this will help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Don%27t_Cry_%28film%29


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 6:51:53 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I don't see how that differs from a hetero guy.

But I may be missing something.


Ha. I just noticed "Nicer than Domiguy."  You guys are so cute.

I think we are both missing something. My point was that I don't understand why it would be easier for a woman rather than a man to deal with unexpected sex parts with a graceful retreat. It appears likely at this point that we are suffering... a failure to communicate. Fortunately, we are not in a prison labor camp and can work through these issues in a more dignified fashion. Unfortunately, Paul Newman will not be visible and shirtless at any point.

Women sexuality is a bit more complicated than mens - or simpler - in short, women are more adaptable sexually women are aroused by pretty much everything, straight sex, gay sex, animal sex...

There is some debate on the issue, and I don't know why this is, it may be that this is the norm - males are basically modified females, and being attracted exclusively to women may be a function of androgen's shuttingoff the part of the brain that responds to erotic/sensual stimulus that falls outside the male/female dichotomy - that this attitude is enculturated and often enforced through violence doesn't help - "the nail that stick out get's hammered", and that probably accounts for 99% of homophobia, even racism, which didn't seem to exist in it's present form much before the Eighteenth century adn institutional slavery. Europe even fought a war against the Moors ending in the Fifteenth century, but it was largely based on differences of culture and religion, if you had said it was skin color back then, they wouldn't have known what you were talking about.

It's much the same with "sexual inversion", the old name for it, and most indigenous cultures have some way of accommodating it, it seems to have been a part of every culture, going back as far as one can see, unless,as it is in our culture, we have some social institution that uses such things to draw political boundaries; "people", as a statistical phenomena, tend to be creatures of habit, they just follow the herd.

For that matter, as a couple of people have pointed out, violence against women is not at all uncommon in this culture, and violence against the transgendered can be seen as an extension of that. Nor does this culture have such a good track record with the handicapped, mentally ill, etc., it's none of it anything to brag about.


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 7:02:04 AM   
Caius


Posts: 175
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana
So for me it is not something I doubt I will ever understand unless there is medical evidence that shows such as hermaphroditism, extra chromosomes or a hormone imbalance.
Cheryl



Well, one thing people should not be in doubt about is that there is a physiological basis for transgenderism, even if they are not as immediately identifiable as abnormalities with the sex organs.  As with sexual orientation, there are consistent variances in brain architecture and hormonal function between 'normal' persons (those who have no qualms about the form of sex organs and secondary sexual characteristics they are born with) and those who identify as transgendered.   Much earlier in the thread, someone made reference to the role of androgens in early (prenatal) development.  By androgen, I think they meant to say androstenedione, which, in one of the better know examples, a condition known as congenital adrenal hyperplasia,  has been shown to cause transgendered traits found often in FtM transexuals. This is just one of many examples.  It's also worthy of note that transgenderism is not limited to gender dysphasia (the feeling of discomfort with one's own sex); there are milder cases where persons, while comfortable enough with their sexual organs, still exhibit cognitive and psychological traits more common to the opposite sex. 

Culture really has very limited influence on whether these persons feel gender dysphoria or other qualities atypical of their sex as these qualities have already become set once past a certain developmental stage, though in some cases hormone therapy can be administered in very early childhood to 'correct' (I use the term loosely) the situation.   Rather, where culture has an influence is in how readily people accept these feelings and how they cope with them.   As has been mentioned by still other posters earlier, many cultures have a prescribed concept of a third gender which many transsexuals, MtF in particular, gravitate towards.  But not every transgendered person is so driven by their feelings that they feel inclined to give up the joys and advantages of their birth sex.  When you consider that in many of the cultures that have the third gender concept (often lauded by western transgender advocates) such persons are expected to join spiritual sects that require them to spend their lives engaging in ritual prostitution (in other cases such persons are just pushed towards garden variety prostitution), you begin to appreciate that few cultures actually completely afford a transgendered person the opportunity of real self-determination.  It's often really more of a pick your poison kind of situation, though I believe that acceptance, and correspondingly, choice, is improving in many modern societies -- certainly that of the english-speaking west in general -- if very slowly. 

< Message edited by Caius -- 8/17/2010 7:07:37 AM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 7:46:56 AM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Greetings OttersSwim:

Ignorance is never sweet when dolled out due to unawareness on a subject. It is a shame that some folks simply do not understand that gender does not originate in the flesh. The flesh usually matches the internal dialogue that one has with their genuine self however gender originates as a mental factor. We mono-gendered folks do not need to continually view our bodies to reinforce our gender identity. Nor are we met with confusion as the mental gender identity always matches the physical formations.

When congruency is lacking there can become an ongoing conflicting dialogue which produces anxiety and leads to various manifestations of internal destructive dialoguing for those who do not have this needed congruency with their gender identity. The body usually matches the mental and internal knowing of gender identity for most folks. It is truly unfortunate that so many mono-gendered folks believe that those who are not mono-gendered are to fulfill inequitable expectations that mono-gendered folks do not have to meet.

I can only imagine that living as a trans person does not equate with a required initial vulnerability when first meeting other people. Nonetheless this foolish demand is put onto trans people by mono-gendered folks. I am embarrassed to acknowledge this being mono-gendered. No I do not share in those sort of unrealistic expectations. However many do and I find it to be unrealistic, at best.

Thank you for your bravery of speaking in a genuine manner about your life. I am in awe at the transparency you displayed throughout this thread. I wanted to say this before I sleep as it has been on my mind as I thought of this thread today & your dignified strength. I wish only the best to you and yours.

Take really good care of you!


Zevar,  Thank you for your words.  Clearly you saw my post before I deleted it.  I did that because I felt that I was getting a little too involved in all this emotionally.  What you said about:

ongoing conflicting dialogue which produces anxiety and leads to various manifestations of internal destructive dialoguing

is completely on track. :)

I would also like to point out that for myself, and from pretty much 100% of the trans folk whom I know and have spoken to, the sensation of "being female" is something that they have felt from a very early age.

There have been scientific studies that prove that brain chemistry of transgendered folk more often that not actually mirrors not their birth gender, but the gender that they aspire to be.  It isn't the estrogen or testosterone that we take that does this - most of us feel and think as female or male long before any opposite sexual hormones enter our bodies. I know that is certainly true for myself.

As for some trans folk being unhappy...yea there are some sad and bitter folk out there.  I myself am really just starting to explore the truth about being trans in society today and I find my perceptions changing.  It's hard to not adopt an attitude of "everyone's out to get me"...when actually, a good many people out there -are- out to get you, when the laws and social structures under which you have to live openly and actively discriminate against you.

The key is to stay open and embracing of the people around you, and not let the -shit get you down-. Again, I am personally finding this to be a challenge as the research and reading leads to an avalanche of negativity, fear, bias, and BS that a cisgendered male or female will never know, never have to have put upon them and have to face it and stay smiling and open.


< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 8/17/2010 7:49:01 AM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 7:48:23 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana
So for me it is not something I doubt I will ever understand unless there is medical evidence that shows such as hermaphroditism, extra chromosomes or a hormone imbalance.
Cheryl



Well, one thing people should not be in doubt about is that there is a physiological basis for transgenderism, even if they are not as immediately identifiable as abnormalities with the sex organs.  As with sexual orientation, there are consistent variances in brain architecture and hormonal function between 'normal' persons (those who have no qualms about the form of sex organs and secondary sexual characteristics they are born with) and those who identify as transgendered.   Much earlier in the thread, someone made reference to the role of androgens in early (prenatal) development.  By androgen, I think they meant to say androstenedione, which, in one of the better know examples, a condition known as congenital adrenal hyperplasia,  has been shown to cause transgendered traits found often in FtM transexuals. This is just one of many examples.  It's also worthy of note that transgenderism is not limited to gender dysphasia (the feeling of discomfort with one's own sex); there are milder cases where persons, while comfortable enough with their sexual organs, still exhibit cognitive and psychological traits more common to the opposite sex. 

Culture really has very limited influence on whether these persons feel gender dysphoria or other qualities atypical of their sex as these qualities have already become set once past a certain developmental stage, though in some cases hormone therapy can be administered in very early childhood to 'correct' (I use the term loosely) the situation.   Rather, where culture has an influence is in how readily people accept these feelings and how they cope with them.   As has been mentioned by still other posters earlier, many cultures have a prescribed concept of a third gender which many transsexuals, MtF in particular, gravitate towards.  But not every transgendered person is so driven by their feelings that they feel inclined to give up the joys and advantages of their birth sex.  When you consider that in many of the cultures that have the third gender concept (often lauded by western transgender advocates) such persons are expected to join spiritual sects that require them to spend their lives engaging in ritual prostitution (in other cases such persons are just pushed towards garden variety prostitution), you begin to appreciate that few cultures actually completely afford a transgendered person the opportunity of real self-determination.  It's often really more of a pick your poison kind of situation, though I believe that acceptance, and correspondingly, choice, is improving in many modern societies -- certainly that of the english-speaking west in general -- if very slowly. 


This is spot on, thank you. 


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 9:20:26 AM   
Lucienne


Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xkittenx

story


I ran out of red flags reading this post. Let me see if I can put this as delicately as possible (smart money says I can't), I'm not going to present an argument as to why I think this post belongs in the Creative Writings section. And I hesitate to say anything, except that dropping fiction of this sort into this thread strikes me as very offensive. So, xkittenx, if your story is true, please write me off as a cynical bitch. If your story is, as I suspect, at least embellished, please write me off as a cynical bitch who has your number.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 12:16:23 PM   
Caius


Posts: 175
Joined: 2/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

This is spot on, thank you. 



Happy to post on a subject like this; nativistic arguments for human behaviour are right in my wheelhouse.  ;) 



quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

I ran out of red flags reading this post. Let me see if I can put this as delicately as possible (smart money says I can't), I'm not going to present an argument as to why I think this post belongs in the Creative Writings section. And I hesitate to say anything, except that dropping fiction of this sort into this thread strikes me as very offensive. So, xkittenx, if your story is true, please write me off as a cynical bitch. If your story is, as I suspect, at least embellished, please write me off as a cynical bitch who has your number.




Well it's really kitten's place to respond and call you out here if she feels so-inclined, but I just just have to ask... Cynicism not withstanding, why would you even make the accusation of such a monumental fabrication if you just had a half-formed suspicion and then further act as if you were doing the tactful thing by making such a suggestion but not explaining your reasoning?  What in her story screams contrivance to you so loudly that you wouldn't hesitate to call her a liar?   Don't take this as a passive-aggressive defense of her simply because I was eager to thank her for sharing,  it's just that, having re-read her post, I still don't see anything I'd describe as a red flag.  Sure it reads a little distant and abstract in places but sometimes people just write that way, even when the subject matter involves tumultuous emotions.  Sometimes especially then.  As for the events themselves, there's nothing in there that doesn't sound like it couldn't have happened to just about any young woman.   Besides, I could be mistaken -- my posting here is infrequent to say the least -- but isn't kitten an established participant of these boards with some degree of credibility?   Again, I probably should just wait to leave it to her to respond to your accusations, but even if she doesn't care to engage you, I'd like to hear your reasoning. 

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 12:53:29 PM   
Lucienne


Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		Caius, I've got some work to do for the next few hours, but I promise to respond later in the day.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 1:24:34 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Zevar,  Thank you for your words.  Clearly you saw my post before I deleted it.  I did that because I felt that I was getting a little too involved in all this emotionally. 

That's not a singular occurrence.  I thought maybe you should know that.


`General Comment`

After reading this thread over again very late last night, it occurs to Me that, somewhere in My own head, I seem to have an automatic default.  Something in My mind automatically clicks to trans woman.  I think I do this for a minimum of two reasons:

1.  I only have had interactions (to the best of My knowledge) in the real world with those who are non op, pre op, or post op MtF.

2.  I am straight, and included in that is My preference to only ever be in any type of sexual intimacy with men.

It's really the combination of the two that has Me where I'm at in My thinking.  As I sat here last night reading here and the links that were provided, the expression of 'not entitled to know what's under the skirt' stuck with Me somewhat.  I've said this from page one of this thread.  If you're wearing the skirt and presenting 'female' to Me, that's how I perceive you.  Yeah, I know.  I just pissed off anyone who is in the cross dressing category who is telling Me that they are male, they just like wearing female attire.  I apologize, but that really is how it works in My head.  (Remember how there weren't supposed to be any 'wrong' answers in this thread?)  On My, perhaps ignorant, side of the screen, I'm thinking this probably works when I deal with those who are MtF.

I'm afraid it probably doesn't work that way for Me when it comes to FtM.  Not when we reach the point of sexual intimacy.  When you take off your pants, it does matter to Me.  If we're talking about a sexual partner, it still matters to Me even if you're post op.

While I was reading the links on cisgender privilege, a couple of things leaped out at Me.  One was "medical attention within an hour".  Whoever came up with that one has never been to an emergency room. 

Then I came to this part where it says that gender will not be determined by:

My sexual choices/desires
  1. With whom? (gender, number)
  2. Frequency
  3. Circumstance (marriage, love, one-night-stand)
  4. What (e.g. penetrating/enveloping, fetishes, dominance)
Frankly, I'm a little confused by this.  If someone is FtM, and they get they right to know who I am, how come I don't get that right in return? 



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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 1:33:38 PM   
xkittenx


Posts: 43
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Status: offline 		I changed my mind.

< Message edited by xkittenx -- 8/17/2010 2:24:53 PM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 1:40:20 PM   
Wheldrake


Posts: 477
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

So when my hypothetical woman made her sudden disclosure, I would probably see myself as having been kept in the dark about an aspect of her past that was not just important, but crucial and formative. It would leave me wondering how well I really knew her, and having to re-evaluate everything I thought I knew about her personality and attitudes to take into account this new, huge piece of the puzzle. I suppose I would feel something similar if someone I had thought was a militant skeptic and atheist announced that she had once spent ten years in an ashram trying to awaken Kundalini - in other words, it would be sort of disorientating.


Yes, it probably would be disorienting, but is that a bad thing? You don't seem to be saying it is, but others are suggesting that yes, that disorientation is bad and would represent a violation of trust. Am I the only one here who's ever told a story about my past that disoriented people? It's called getting to know someone. I understand the feelings that full disclosure people are expressing, it all sounds fair and good until I think about how this works in practice. Starting to date someone is not like two companies considering a merger where each side gets to explore the guts of the other in the interest of due diligence prior to deciding if the relationship is a good idea.

We all have a certain degree of control over how we present ourselves to new people. Presenting the entire emotional package for inspection at an early stage (or all at once) would probably come across as boundariless and strange. Basically... kind of crazy. I don't know anyone who thinks acting like this on a first date is a good idea, if for no other reason than you'll probably come across as extremely self-absorbed because the other person won't have a chance to talk.  Instead, we normally present ourselves with carefully selected positives. When I want someone to like me, I'm naturally going to try and be my best me. As I get to know a person and determine that I trust them, I will fill in the narrative gaps as I feel comfortable. I'm a pretty good storyteller, so the person frequently isn't aware that the gap existed until I fill them in. And then, yes, quite frequently it causes them to change their understanding of me. Usually in a good way. When I'm getting to know someone, I consider it important to be plain about who I am and what sorts of things are important to me. I do not think it is important to share how I came to be the person that I am. In comic book terms, I just don't think a person is entitled to my origin story.  Ever, really. One can say that's a barrier to intimacy, but I don't think it's fair to say that failure to disclose is a lie of omission.



To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the disclosure had to happen at a very early stage. All I'm saying is that the people involved in a relationship have to go through a process of getting to know each other, and I would want to find out about the discrepancy between birth sex and current sex as part of that process. It wouldn't have to happen on the first day of our acquaintance, or even necessarily before we started having sex or doing BDSM or whatever, but sooner or later I would expect to be told. In fact, it's hard to see how this could be avoided without a lot of evasions, misleading statements or outright lies, since I would naturally ask about the other person's childhood and teenage years at some point.

Of course I appreciate that disclosure can be dangerous, and I can sympathise with transgendered people who end up wondering whether or not it's safe to share their "origin story" with a person they're becoming intimate with. But in a close, serious, long-term sort of relationship, I really would want to be told. If nothing else, I like to think that a transwoman wouldn't have to spend too much time with me before becoming very confident that I wouldn't react to her disclosure by freaking out and becoming violent, or by rushing to phone up all her friends and coworkers with the shocking news. If she still felt she couldn't trust me with the information, I would take that as a pretty good sign that we shouldn't be together anyway.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 1:44:36 PM   
Wheldrake


Posts: 477
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caius

It's also worthy of note that transgenderism is not limited to gender dysphasia (the feeling of discomfort with one's own sex); there are milder cases where persons, while comfortable enough with their sexual organs, still exhibit cognitive and psychological traits more common to the opposite sex. 



But are these really mild cases of transgenderism, or just an indication that men and women overlap in their "cognitive and psychological traits"? To me the latter interpretation frankly seems a lot more plausible.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 3:38:54 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana
But while the idea is so new many will not under any circumstances embrace it and expecting them to, expecting to be able to force your views on anyone is an exercise in futility.


Good post. Thanks for sharing.

I think it is important to recognize that there are degrees of acceptance relating to this issue. There are many people like myself who are (or were going into this discussion) comfortable with personal/social/friendship relationships with trans folk but who are not (nor ever will be) open to an intimate relationship with someone who is trans. There are also people who do not accept them at all and people who accept their gender without condition on all fronts. I get the sense based on this thread that it has to be all or nothing. That is not personally going to happen with me.

I have to confess that I have been really put off by the comments of some of the pro trans supporters in this thread. Sometimes I engage in threads on certain topics and my support opens up. At other times it closes. This thread is an example of the latter.


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 5:50:47 PM   
Lucienne


Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Caius

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

This is spot on, thank you. 



Happy to post on a subject like this; nativistic arguments for human behaviour are right in my wheelhouse.  ;) 



quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

I ran out of red flags reading this post. Let me see if I can put this as delicately as possible (smart money says I can't), I'm not going to present an argument as to why I think this post belongs in the Creative Writings section. And I hesitate to say anything, except that dropping fiction of this sort into this thread strikes me as very offensive. So, xkittenx, if your story is true, please write me off as a cynical bitch. If your story is, as I suspect, at least embellished, please write me off as a cynical bitch who has your number.




Well it's really kitten's place to respond and call you out here if she feels so-inclined, but I just just have to ask... Cynicism not withstanding, why would you even make the accusation of such a monumental fabrication if you just had a half-formed suspicion and then further act as if you were doing the tactful thing by making such a suggestion but not explaining your reasoning?  What in her story screams contrivance to you so loudly that you wouldn't hesitate to call her a liar?   Don't take this as a passive-aggressive defense of her simply because I was eager to thank her for sharing,  it's just that, having re-read her post, I still don't see anything I'd describe as a red flag.  Sure it reads a little distant and abstract in places but sometimes people just write that way, even when the subject matter involves tumultuous emotions.  Sometimes especially then.  As for the events themselves, there's nothing in there that doesn't sound like it couldn't have happened to just about any young woman.   Besides, I could be mistaken -- my posting here is infrequent to say the least -- but isn't kitten an established participant of these boards with some degree of credibility?   Again, I probably should just wait to leave it to her to respond to your accusations, but even if she doesn't care to engage you, I'd like to hear your reasoning. 



I don't take your comment as a passive-aggressive defense. Why would I make the accusation...as stated, reading her post I got the impression that she was not being truthful. I'm not sure to what degree, but I'm about as sure as one can be about these things on the internet. I usually don't point it out when I smell bullshit of the more emotional variety. Mostly because people lie for attention, and the more emotional the lie, the more likely credulous folks will step up to defend the liar and call me names. Now, I made my comment with the full awareness that some (many? I don't care) people will think I'm a horrible person for doing so. I can live with that. And I'm fully capable of, if not particularly interested in, offering a breakdown of why I concluded that she was being less than truthful. So it's not like I don't normally bring it up because I'm afraid to explain myself. I normally don't bring it up because all it does is give the liar more of what she wants -- sympathetic attention.

The reason I was willing to bring it up here is because the context really bothered me. Not as an example of a cis person who had an understandable emotional response to disclosure, I didn't read her comment as "and this is why you're a horrible person if you don't immediately disclose" or advocating any larger point outside of her own story. And I'm not sure I can explain why it really bothered me in a way that others wouldn't consider needlessly cruel. I'll just leave it at -- manipulative.  I've made my point to her. If she's lying, she knows what I'm talking about, I'm not going to give her tips to improve her performance by explaining the red flags. And if I'm wrong and the whole story is true from top to bottom, well, that really would be just extra cruel, wouldn't it? "You had this awful experience, allow me to explain in detail why you come across as an unreliable narrator." I wouldn't have posted my comment if I didn't think she was, as I said, at least embellishing. But it's not like I think I'm infallible. If I'm wrong, no need to cause additional injury.

As for her posting history, I'm pretty bad at remembering posters. I vaguely remember a xxkittenxx or something like that, but nothing about that person. The geographical/age detail rang a teeny tiny bell, but still... no, sorry. I don't remember her.

I'm sorry if the lack of detail leaves you unsatisfied, but I hope I've at least done an adequate job of explaining why I don't want to offer more.





(in reply to Caius)
Profile   Post #: 336
RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 7:05:25 PM   
penguirl


Posts: 8
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quote:

ORIGINAL: couldbemage

I wish I understood this.

To me, gender roles don't mean much....

So I don't get TG people. What does living as the new gender really mean? It can't just be superficial appearance issues.

....but anything other than appearance... Just leaves behavior.

Which means stereotypes.

Which are supposed to be bad.



In my case it was/is a matter of having a feminine brain in a masculine body. The issue was that the testosterone in my system confused my feminine brain making everything seem inherently wrong. At one point in my 30s I came to the conclusion that there was something fundamentally wrong with my thought process, but what was wrong wasn't my thought process, it was that people expected me to think and act like a man when I was actually thinking and acting like a woman. That, and having grown up being uncomfortable with my male bits, envious of the girls who had the 'right' bodies in my mind, is what made makes me transsexual.

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(in reply to couldbemage)
Profile   Post #: 337
RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 7:41:53 PM   
penguirl


Posts: 8
Joined: 3/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84

it is not a trans persons responsibility to educate cisgenders......

You are absolutely right, it is not. But it ends up falling on trans people to be the ones to educate cissexuals because let's face it, most cis persons are not going to wake up one day and think to themselves "I think I will research transgenderism today." If the trans community didn't do it, it wouldn't get done.

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(in reply to sweetlindsey84)
Profile   Post #: 338
RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 8:05:09 PM   
penguirl


Posts: 8
Joined: 3/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CeriseNin

Yes, there's personal information I don't give out on the first date, however, I don't date biological men, so a flesh & blood penis is a massive, never getting over hurdle for a romantic relationship to occur between me and the hypothetical date.


What if the woman were a post-op transwoman and there was no "flesh & blood penis"? Is her status as a post-op transwoman going to be a massive, never getting over hurdle for a romantic relationship to occur?

Do you divulge your medical/surgical/personal history to every woman that you might date?

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(in reply to CeriseNin)
Profile   Post #: 339
RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/17/2010 8:17:05 PM   
penguirl


Posts: 8
Joined: 3/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

And if you really think about it the transgendered person is really wasting their own time or worse. If I am a m2f transgendered person I am at best naive to withhold that information thinking that it just isn't relevant and more over do I really want to get involved with someone whom I might develop some genuine emotional attachment to only to potentially lose them when I reveal my gender history?



One thing that you do not take into account is that the transperson may very well be putting themselves in mortal danger by revealing this fact to someone they just met. I would rather have a little bit of time to assess whether I think I would be safe in revealing my gender identity to someone first rather than rolling the dice and telling everyone I meet.

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(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 340
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