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Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 6:04:08 PM

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Hello Friends,

I am interested in how you define a gender. Specifically, I am interested in how people with strong orientations (straight/gay/lesbian) feel about when the line between gender roles and biological sex start to blur.

Biological sex being defined as which sex organs are possessed.
Gender roles being defined as activities which carry a stereotypical propensity to one gender or the other.

If you are a straight male, can you be attracted to a sufficiently feminine person who has a penis?
If you are a gay female attracted to more butch partners, how does that differ from being attracted to a man?

At what point for you, if any, does the reproductive organ stop mattering? When is a female so masculine she figures to you as a man? When is a man so feminine he is calculated as a girl?

Many will say "I fall in love with the person, not the body." That is fine too.

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 6:09:05 PM

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Whatever a person identifies as is what I accept them to be. There's a range of appearances and behaviors, and I just can't say: Broad shouldered gal with deep voice, must be a guy or a dyke. That person could be uberfemme! I've met tenor voiced men that fit the "traditional" swishy image that are STRAIGHT, baby!!

I do tend to read genetic (ie BORN AS females) as female, no matter what. Fabulous boi is still "hot chick" to me, though I will refer to her as a "him" if that's how that person relates. I can spot a transgendered person, too, EVEN those fab asians, as long as I am in person. Not sure why this is... not the most useful skill!

Oh, I am only 1 percent lesbian, does that count?

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 6:13:05 PM

AQuietSimpleMan

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Penises and Vagina are pretty basic ideas.

The Idea that if you have one them Biologically that is what you are.... Then you have the Platypus of the Gender Community the Intersexed.

Here is the way I see it. Tell people you are what you feel you are, but if what you feel you are does not match what your underwear covers, then before you get involved with someone on a romantic level you should have enough integrity to let them know what you are or are not packing.

I remember being upset when I found out one of my firends was a Transvestite, Not because He was really a She, but because most of the stories that xhe told were all likes. Talking about Boyscouts that they were never in, talking about embarasing penis moments, and finding out it was all bullshit, really bothered me. What is really fucked up is that I would have had no issue being Hir firend if Xhe was was upfront.

The Lies is what bothered me, it really ruined our friendship, I felt betrayed and like I couldn't trust Hir anymore.

Anyway, Live how you feel, Be who you see in the mirror, but be honest with those who care about you. Betrayal comes in many forms.

QSM

_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

"If a Key opens many locks, then it is a Master Key, If a Lock is opened by lots of keys, then it is a Shitty Lock"

(in reply to BambiBoi)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 6:20:58 PM

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Just as Hib said, I consider the person as the gender they identify with. If they identify as female in any way, shape, or form, I am not interested in them. I am straight. That includes those that I do see as female, even if they have the genitalia that biologically says they are male. In a sense, the male reproductive stops mattering to Me when it is in feminine attire. As soon as "female" clicks in My brain associated a person, that person no longer is anyone that I am interested in as far as a sexual way goes. This also means that it is impossible for Me to be "in love" with them.

_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 6:29:49 PM

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*giggles*

Hir... Xhe...

The issue of the biologically transgendered is actually a different facet, but worth addressing. It can be very difficult for transgendered people to be overt about themselves, particularly at the outset of a relationship. As a strong proponent of meeting people online first, I can understand that a transgendered person would want the other to like them before dropping the news. Thought its sad when such a detail completely changes someone, that is simply part of the time we live in.

Interesting story, QSM. Why did you feel so strongly betrayed? Lying about having a cock is like lying about having a real leg when you have a prosthetic.

Also, Lady Hibiscus, I do believe 1% lesbian is a 2 on the Kinsey scale.

(in reply to AQuietSimpleMan)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 6:30:55 PM

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I can be "in love" with a person in a completely non sexual way, or at least I was capable of such many years ago. So I could have a serious pash for someone femme, theoretically. I know I wouldn't seek that out though.

QSM, I dig what you are saying about the lies. That's just wrong, making up a backstory to fit some fantasy.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 6:38:19 PM

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I can 'love' females as friends. However, I can not be 'in love' with them. To Me, there has to be a romantic component to being 'in love'. That doesn't happen with Me with anyone who is biologically female or anyone who identifies as trans.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 6:53:01 PM

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Lady Pact,

How do you feel about men who are very slender but toned, shorter, with very little lightly coloured body hair - to the point where they don't seem to have much at all?

What if they preferred romantic comedies to sports and giggled?

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 6:55:08 PM

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This is one of those things i have no strong opinions about.

I am a het female who is attracted to het males. I really do not venture from that paradigm. I have no opinion on what others call themselves, how they identify, or what they are attracted to, so I cannot weigh in on that....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BambiBoi)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 7:02:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BambiBoi
If you are a gay female attracted to more butch partners, how does that differ from being attracted to a man?

That's a good question. Not that anything in this world hinges upon my understanding it but I never really understood that phenomenon. I guess there are certain basic relationship dynamics that are hard to escape regardless of the gender or sexual orientation of the parties.

To answer your question I have no trouble acknowledging someone as whatever gender they identify themselves as. I respect them in the same manner I would expect them to respect me. If they were born male and identified as a female (or vice versa) I would treat and regard them as such out of basic respect. Deep down I would still consider them to be the gender they were born but it is not about my opinion of them - what matters is their own opinion of themselves.

_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 7:26:42 PM

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I'm straight.
Cross-dressing submissive males mocks the Female, and is an anti-aphrodisiac to me.
I'm not attracted to effeminate males. Anyone male or female talking like Lyle from SNL or a condescending kindergarten teacher sets my teeth on edge!
I'm not attracted to bisexual males. So stop calling already!

I have friends who are straight, gay, bi-, lesbian, celibate, and acquaintances who are truly transgendered i.e., post-op.
I've never met an attractive [to me] lesbian, butch or femme. I've never been attracted to bi- acquaintances, male or female.

I don't care what sexuality others enjoy, as long as it's safe, sane, respectful, consensual, and doesn't frighten the horses [meaning, a sweet kiss, hug and handholding is fine, but don't hump in public, no matter who you're dry-humping].
Marry whoever you like, wear whatever you like UNDER modest streetclothes, and think of the children: my nieces should not have seen that woman on a leash walking two steps behind a man, and they're not going to see me wearing a strapon under my jeans when I'm going out on a date.

So I'm not threatened or grossed out by other sexualities: I knows what I likes, and it's only straight or sub males; no one else has ever aroused me in mind or body [except for gay porn, woo hoo!]

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 8:06:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BambiBoi

Lady Pact,

How do you feel about men who are very slender but toned, shorter, with very little lightly coloured body hair - to the point where they don't seem to have much at all?

What if they preferred romantic comedies to sports and giggled?

None of that denotes feminine to Me. I might be put off a bit by the giggling (in other words, I probably wouldn't find it attractive if you're talking a high pitched hehehehe) but it wouldn't make Me think 'female'. Neither does a person's build or what kind of entertainment they like to watch. (I happen to like football, Myself. Do I seem masculine to you?)

My husband is actually very much built like you describe. Smaller frame, blond, and little body hair. Nothing about him leads Me to think he's feminine. (Trust Me. As a married man, he's watched a romantic comedy or two in life.) If I had met him and he was wearing a dress, we would have never had a relationship to begin with.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to BambiBoi)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 8:07:56 PM

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Did he cry at the end of Steel Magnolia's?

Wait don't tell us!

That's too personal......:)

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 8:43:03 PM

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To everyone but specifically in response to Lady Pact,

A challenge of gender typing is that it is hinged on stereotypes which are rapidly growing out of favor. I have no doubt that Lady Pact has many "masculine" traits, but that makes her no less of a beautiful woman.

Lady Pact, you mentioned that your husband has that look, but you do not consider him feminine. What do you consider feminine (other than a vagina =P)?

(in reply to Jeffff)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 8:46:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

Penises and Vagina are pretty basic ideas.

The Idea that if you have one them Biologically that is what you are....
QSM

Not to get technical with you, but this isn't actually true. The definition of sex within a species is determined by the presence of the organs of production of either the male or female reproductive cells (ova and spermatozoa), hence making it the OVARY and TESTES that give sexual determination.

It's worth making the distinction, because the implications for real biological gender modification would be significant.

A male wanting to be a woman can assume that gender role all he wants, but he is never biologically so until he finds a way to implant a working ovary, and loses the tadpole factories.

Lopping off the penis and somehow getting a vagina in it's place would enable them to perform (somewhat) sexually as a woman, but only sexually in terms of coital activity. Which really isn't the definition of female IMO.

(in reply to AQuietSimpleMan)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 8:51:57 PM

Zevar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BambiBoi

Hello Friends,

I am interested in how you define a gender. Specifically, I am interested in how people with strong orientations (straight/gay/lesbian) feel about when the line between gender roles and biological sex start to blur.

Biological sex being defined as which sex organs are possessed.
Gender roles being defined as activities which carry a stereotypical propensity to one gender or the other.

If you are a straight male, can you be attracted to a sufficiently feminine person who has a penis?
If you are a gay female attracted to more butch partners, how does that differ from being attracted to a man?

At what point for you, if any, does the reproductive organ stop mattering? When is a female so masculine she figures to you as a man? When is a man so feminine he is calculated as a girl?

Many will say "I fall in love with the person, not the body." That is fine too.

Good Evening BambiBoi:

The subject of gender from a binary perspective is how the majority of people identify when considering their gender identity. Medical science dictates the binary gender as either male or female at birth. There are no other options for infants at birth. Therefore the originated gender identity tends to be enforced from birth without any options for parents who give birth to healthy babies and who are otherwise not within the medically acceptable binary gender identity.

Typically gender is what identifies an individual in ways that are in certain instances not necessarily congruent with biological classifications and factors. The essential self of a person or the true inner being within each individual is the only one who can genuinely define their gender identity thus belonging uniquely to himself or herself and constituting his or her individual gender identity within their life.

Traditionally, gender has referred to grammatical classifications in languages and sex has referred to the biological classifications to which gender is analogous. For some time, however, anthropologists have used gender to distinguish cultural categories from biological ones.

Gender roles are less distinct among many of society. The conventional sexes (binary gender identities) usually pair together frequently when considering gender from a biological position. Cultural and biological categories are interrelated, of course, and thus at times it can be difficult to decide which term to use in defining gender in an appropriate manner within society.

Gender has become the preferred term in the 21st century as opposed to sex, overall. Surely many still use the terms gender and sex in a dualistic/binary manner. Nonetheless gender has become a preferred term in the 21st century. It matters not how anyone arrives at the awareness of their gender identity. What is the business of another is not my business at all unless it is chosen to be disclosed.

Nor does it matter how anyone arrives at the knowledge of their gender role among society. Defining gender identity could only be considered as a personal process that is a natural aspect of life for those who do not identity within the spectrum of binary gender identity. Among the majority of society perceived gender identity within terms of conventional societal rules and as related to gender identity tends to be greatly misunderstood. Thus lacks acceptance for those whose gender defies societies expectations of gender identity.

Coming to terms with gender identity or gender role (s) is not an issue that has to be explored by everyone within society. While for others the subject of gender is not as easily defined and even when defined lacks a acceptable place among the majority of society. Who among us is without gender identity? Gender is something which we are created to express. Medical science plays a vital role in becoming aware of the continuum of gender in a way that will lend itself to creating a place for those who are who they are yet do not fit in the prescribed boxes at birth.

Finally, each of us who live within our communities can perhaps become aware of the differences in gender identities and gender roles thus fostering a place for ALL people within our communities. I define blurs in gender identity as someone refusing to live authentically as who they are as opposed to who society defines them to be. Having said all of this it raises the question: Why would anyone want any less? Live & Let Live!

Take good care of you!

(in reply to BambiBoi)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 9:12:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BambiBoi
Lady Pact, you mentioned that your husband has that look, but you do not consider him feminine. What do you consider feminine (other than a vagina =P)?

I said My husband was a small framed man, not that he especially had an androgynous or feminine look to him.

There's not much I can tell you more than I have in the above. I don't consider personality traits either male or female. Attire is something completely different. If he wanted to represent himself as female, was CD, TV, or TG, it would be enough of a connection for Me for him not to be appealing to Me.

Not that hard to understand, really.

Jeffff, no, he didn't cry at the end of Steel Magnolias. Though I will admit that movie has one of My all time favorite lines.

You're too twisted for color tv.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to BambiBoi)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 9:22:09 PM

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Gender is defined as you what you were born with.

However, if one feels they were born into the wrong gender, I respect that.

I don't care what anyone identifies with as long as they are honest about who they are.

My ex husband had a good childhood male friend who got botched surgery to become a woman. She has lied consistently to everyone she meets and still to this day wonders why they get angry when they attempt to become intimate and she makes this big announcement.

She presents a lie and therefore by the time someone gets close enough to her that she trusts THEM, she proves untrustworthy because she allowed it to go that far without revealing who she is.

I hate when others are so afraid of who they are that they remove the informed choice from someone who might want to get involved with them.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 8/13/2010 9:23:25 PM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 9:25:10 PM

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quote:

A challenge of gender typing is that it is hinged on stereotypes which are rapidly growing out of favor.

Hmmmmm... gender identity is a huge controversy in my field. I would say that gender stereotypes differ from culture to culture, and many cultures have had a third gender category, but we will probably always have cultural gender stereotypes... it is kinda a human thing to do so. We tend to want to lump people and categorize them, it is what we do.

Gender is one of the more clear cut categories that people have, because by and large most people identify with one gender or the other...with a large minority not feeling as if they fit in either group

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/13/2010 10:48:12 PM

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Every person is comprised of many levels, each of which may have characteristics different from their other levels. That is, any level of a person may have a unique balance between masculine and feminine architypal energy and state.

(in reply to BambiBoi)

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