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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 7:10:29 PM

Guilty1974

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quote:

There are also many wonderful countries out there, such as Canada, Sweden, England, Australia, Japan, and The Netherlands. I would hope the citizens of these fair nations are proud of their homes as well.

Yes I am.

BUT

Not as proud as I was until a few years ago, and not without criticism. And that's what quite a few USA citizens are lacking in this thread: the capacity to remain critical towards their own country.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 7:30:54 PM

MistressDREAD

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yes John they served. Not in combat, and not as a whole but seperate and secondary during this time of shame. Not as One people during the time I speak of or as Americans but as seperate people of * less than* status. Thats the shame of it all. Its a fact that cannot be swept under any rug not even by Your words or opinion John. The Facts of History speak for theirselfs, I only reinerate such. My Great Gran was a Buffalo Souljer, course the stories passed down in My families breath Im sure were not the storys You learned in school. ThankYou for Your service and My Freedom. And of course Your opinion.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 7:57:01 PM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

yes John they served. Not in combat, and not as a whole but seperate and secondary during this time of shame. Not as One people during the time I speak of or as Americans but as seperate people of * less than* status. Thats the shame of it all. Its a fact that cannot be swept under any rug not even by Your words or opinion John. The Facts of History speak for theirselfs, I only reinerate such. My Great Gran was a Buffalo Souljer, course the stories passed down in My families breath Im sure were not the storys You learned in school. ThankYou for Your service and My Freedom. And of course Your opinion.

"Not in combat?" Are you saying the 9th and 10th Cavalries weren't combat units? I think the Cheyennes, Arapahos, and Comanches might just disagee. As would the Confederates at Fort Wagner after they tangled with the 54th Massachusetts. In the American Revolution, Blacks fought alongside whites in several formed units. Those are historical facts. Now, it's my opinion that anyone who says the men of the Red Ball Express weren't in combat has a very different meaning for the word combat than I have.

You still haven't told who this "queen" was.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 11:42:50 PM

DelightMachine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974
And that's what quite a few USA citizens are lacking in this thread: the capacity to remain critical towards their own country.

I haven't seen that at all in this thread. I personally have said several times that there's nothing wroing with criticism but attacks are wrong. Others have made similar statements. So please point out where on this thread any American citizens have shown no capacity for criticism of the United States.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 12:07:08 AM

cacodylic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine
<snip>
I notice a pattern in posts like this: Change the subject and attack from another angle rather than acknowledge the good that the U.S. has done. If you can't acknowledge it, then don't the rest of us have a right to think of you as unpatriotic (if you're an American) and anti-American wherever you come from?

And if you can't acknowledge the facts, why should the rest of us trust any of you?

However much considerable good the US has done in the past, it is rapidly squandering whatever good will that may have entitled it to. As more people shed the star-apangled blinders and wake up to the dire shape we're in, the shallow, thoughtless, venal, mendacious definitions of 'patriotism' that seem to appeal to you will be revealed as the idiocy it really is. A country that can't do right by its own people is in more trouble than cheerleading can help.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 12:15:55 AM

Lordandmaster

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Worldwide, America's goodwill quotient right now is just about 0.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 3:40:58 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

There are also many wonderful countries out there, such as Canada, Sweden, England, Australia, Japan, and The Netherlands. I would hope the citizens of these fair nations are proud of their homes as well.

Yes I am.

BUT

Not as proud as I was until a few years ago, and not without criticism. And that's what quite a few USA citizens are lacking in this thread: the capacity to remain critical towards their own country.

Guilty, Americans can be "blind" to the faults here, but I believe what has created some ire on our behalf is the seeming inability of others to see or say anything positive about the USA. It does cut both ways.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 4:17:00 AM

NeedToUseYou

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cacodylic
However much considerable good the US has done in the past, it is rapidly squandering whatever good will that may have entitled it to. As more people shed the star-apangled blinders and wake up to the dire shape we're in, the shallow, thoughtless, venal, mendacious definitions of 'patriotism' that seem to appeal to you will be revealed as the idiocy it really is. A country that can't do right by its own people is in more trouble than cheerleading can help.

Hmmm, all negative and no explanations of what any of it is referring to. It might help if your not just wanting to jump in and bitch. If you

A. stated why the US is squandering the good it once had in your opinion.

B state how this can be fixed.

C explain your concept of patriotism and why it's better than DelightMachine's

D Try communicating instead of calling people names.

I shouldn't have to point this out to an "Educator of PHD's". Don't they still require English Classes and Public Speaking classes?

I give you a A for emotion
a F- for content, no explanation just conclusions.

You may have to take this class over.

Thanks

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 5:11:38 AM

meatcleaver

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After 9/11 every right minded person thought the US had the right to go after the people responsible and had the right to invade Afghanistan since they were harboring and training terrorists for such attrocities.

Iraq changed that. Everyone with an ounce of intelligence knew the WMD issue was trumped up lies, everyone knew that bad as Saddam was, he was no friend of Islamic terrorists and never helped them and wasn't a threat to the west. Everyone who takes a slight interest in politics knew Rumsfeld and co had written about invading Iraq before 9/11.

Another issue that creates negative feelings towards the USA is its uncritical support and bank rolling of Israel even though Israel indulges in as much terrorism as the Palistinians. Take for examples, Israels use of assinations with missiles, killing what they call a militant and half a dozen innocent civilians at the same time. Also the USA's hypocracy of trying to prevent everyone but Israel from having nuclear weapons.

The USA's use of power to force people to open its markets while protecting its own. The USA isn't the only guilty country in this but the USA shouts the loudest about free enterprise. For example.The Guatemala banana issue. The EU allowed bananas into the EU from the Carribean islands without a tariff because of their ex-empire links and the reliance of the small farmers and island economies on the European market. The US complained to GATT as it has every right to do. The EU had to treat the Carribean farmers the same as the Guatemalan growers. Who made out of the deal? USA conglomarates. Who lost? Poor small farmers who would slip into poverty. This was seen in Europe as a vindictive attack against the poor in the third world, even though the USA had the right to pursue the case. However, at the same time this was happening the USA was putting tariffs on imported steel to protect their own steel industry. The hypocrisy factor, even though the tariffs did damaged US industry rather than protect it. If the USA wants to protect its industry in the same way as France, it would be better to act like France and not do it while spouting free market philosophy and forcing others to open up their markets.

On cultural issue. Not a big issue but its part of the drip feed of how others see America. American financial power means it controls almost all the cinema outlets in large parts of Europe and uses its power to show American films and keep local films out. Not an issue that has people manning the barricades but an issue that feeds anti American sentiment. Hmm Cinematic inaccuracies also drip feed the sentiment such as in the film U-571 it was an American submarine that captured the enigma decoder when it was the British, before the US entered the war. While watching American films can be an advertisement for the US it can also stoke up anti American sentiment, such as when the American good guy inevitably defeats the evil foreigner while saving the world. These are small insignificant things but it adds to the background noise and which bigger issues play out.

The USA's attitude to Cuba has the USA widely seen as mean, petty and a bully. For many people outside the USA, this bitterness towards Cuba is seen almost pathological with the added cynicism of money buying policy in Washington. Whatever the reason for it, whether its because a little country thumbed its nose at the US and got away with it, the USA's blockade is seen as mean and an attack on the poor as much as the regime. Castro and Guevara weren't even communists until the USA forced them to choose between capitulation and seeking sanctuary under the protection of the USSR

The list is endless and you might say other countries are just as guilty and probably that is true but the USA is the world's only superpower and has a profile to match so when it spouts about freedom and democracy and its hypocrisy is exposed and when it goes into a country in an illegal war with all guns blazing, people judge it.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/23/2006 5:12:40 AM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 5:59:41 AM

ScotDom29

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This was discussed in the pub last night.

If anyone can name something you can do in America that you can't do in dozens of other countries I'll finally believe this endless, nauseating, boring, stupid belief that "USA is the best country on Earth".

The fact is almost all Western democracies are much more free than America has been or ever will be. (insert WWII comment here)

Right now, I'm about to walk 50 yards down my street and play roulette. With my own money that I worked hard for. I will probably lose.

But I love living in a country where that is MY freedom of choice, not my Governments.

Americans, stick to what you do best. Eat a lot, wave a flag, bully small nations and behave like the fat kid at school that used to run around saying "I'm the best, I'm the best", while the rest of us cringed. Your country sucks. Go visit some others and see for yourselves.

Buh bye now.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 6:25:39 AM

NeedToUseYou

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

After 9/11 every right minded person thought the US had the right to go after the people responsible and had the right to invade Afghanistan since they were harboring and training terrorists for such attrocities.

Iraq changed that. Everyone with an ounce of intelligence knew the WMD issue was trumped up lies, everyone knew that bad as Saddam was, he was no friend of Islamic terrorists and never helped them and wasn't a threat to the west. Everyone who takes a slight interest in politics knew Rumsfeld and co had written about invading Iraq before 9/11.

At the time I figured the WMD's issue was being used as an excuse. I thought he probably had some though probably not a huge stockpile but figured he had some.
But this doesn't bother me, as suddam was terrible by any standard and was just a valid a target as any other crazed dictator. Killed way more of his people than we will kill there even if it takes decades. So, I'm not really seeing how Iraq is harmed in the short-term or long-term. The only country losing more lives is the US. But your stated objection seems to be the war itself and the Iraqi people. So that is a different argument not mentioned.

quote:

Another issue that creates negative feelings towards the USA is its uncritical support and bank rolling of Israel even though Israel indulges in as much terrorism as the Palistinians. Take for examples, Israels use of assinations with missiles, killing what they call a militant and half a dozen innocent civilians at the same time. Also the USA's hypocracy of trying to prevent everyone but Israel from having nuclear weapons.

The Palestinians are equally bad as Isreal. The only reason we can't pull our support from Israel, is because if we did abandon them, all the middle eastern countries would war with them, and it would be 1000 times as bloody, nukes and all. As long as we are protecting them to a degree, it keeps the rest of the middle east in check through fear of retaliation from us. The day we pull our support completely from Israel is the day Isreal will be fully invaded, and Israel will launch everything they have to stop an invader. Bloody, Bloody, Bloody, on all sides. 100,000's of thousands easily would die. At least that is my opinion on it. I don't like Isreal or palestine, for the record, they are both acting like little brats. But it's not worth the cost of not supporting Israel. Also, Israel, is a friendly militarly to us, in a region that really doesn't like us to well. So, if the shit hits the fan, they would help us. And until we relieve ourselves of the noose of oil, we will be there in the Middle East. Sorry, nations don't let themselves run out of vital resources, unless they have no choice whatsoever.

quote:

The USA's use of power to force people to open its markets while protecting its own. The USA isn't the only guilty country in this but the USA shouts the loudest about free enterprise. For example.The Guatemala banana issue. The EU allowed bananas into the EU from the Carribean islands without a tariff because of their ex-empire links and the reliance of the small farmers and island economies on the European market. The US complained to GATT as it has every right to do. The EU had to treat the Carribean farmers the same as the Guatemalan growers. Who made out of the deal? USA conglomarates. Who lost? Poor small farmers who would slip into poverty. This was seen in Europe as a vindictive attack against the poor in the third world, even though the USA had the right to pursue the case. However, at the same time this was happening the USA was putting tariffs on imported steel to protect their own steel industry. The hypocrisy factor, even though the tariffs did damaged US industry rather than protect it. If the USA wants to protect its industry in the same way as France, it would be better to act like France and not do it while spouting free market philosophy and forcing others to open up their markets.

I don't see a problem with this, A countries obligation is to it's people not other countries. Especially, when we have similiarly lopsided trading deals with other countries that don't favor us at all.

quote:

On cultural issue. Not a big issue but its part of the drip feed of how others see America. American financial power means it controls almost all the cinema outlets in large parts of Europe and uses its power to show American films and keep local films out. Not an issue that has people manning the barricades but an issue that feeds anti American sentiment. Hmm Cinematic inaccuracies also drip feed the sentiment such as in the film U-571 it was an American submarine that captured the enigma decoder when it was the British, before the US entered the war. While watching American films can be an advertisement for the US it can also stoke up anti American sentiment, such as when the American good guy inevitably defeats the evil foreigner while saving the world. These are small insignificant things but it adds to the background noise and which bigger issues play out.

hmmmmm, Why do they go to them if they don't like them. I pretty much stopped go to movies, because rarely is a movie anything but crap. Movies aren't a requirement, just don't go to them. They must like them though, or else they wouldn't pay to see it. To me this isn't a legitimate argument.

quote:

The USA's attitude to Cuba has the USA widely seen as mean, petty and a bully. For many people outside the USA, this bitterness towards Cuba is seen almost pathological with the added cynicism of money buying policy in Washington. Whatever the reason for it, whether its because a little country thumbed its nose at the US and got away with it, the USA's blockade is seen as mean and an attack on the poor as much as the regime. Castro and Guevara weren't even communists until the USA forced them to choose between capitulation and seeking sanctuary under the protection of the USSR

Not that I care what world opinion is. But I'd be all for lifting the embargo, but castro will die soon enough. I'm sure that's what we are waiting for to start talking again. His rhetoric never helped the situation either.

quote:

The list is endless and you might say other countries are just as guilty and probably that is true but the USA is the world's only superpower and has a profile to match so when it spouts about freedom and democracy and its hypocrisy is exposed and when it goes into a country in an illegal war with all guns blazing, people judge it.

I don't agree with every action this country takes, but when I add it up I still come to the same conclusion. Out of your list the only one that even makes me pause is Iraq, but I can't really feel badly about getting rid of a dictator that tried to commit genocide on segments of his own population, had professional rapists, etc... I just can't do it. Illegal or not, it's not a bad thing for the Iraqi people.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 6:47:41 AM

meatcleaver

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Americans aren't the only ones to be losing lives in Iraq. Estimates are that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have too. Not even saddam was killing people on that scale.

The implication of my post is that Israelis and Palastinians are just as bad as each other. However, look at it from how many other countries see it in the middle east. The unequivical US support for Isreal and its unwillingness to cointrol Israel while supporting corrupt regimes so it has access to oil and illegally invading countries (also seen by many to control oil). A picture starts to build up rightly or wrongly of a malicious, mendacious USA. Also the USA wouldn't allow other countries to mess about in what it calls its backyard which appears to be the whole of the western hemisphere. The middle east is Europes backyard and Europe is the middle easts backyard.

However, my post was about how people perceive the USA and not that the USA is worse than any other country, I don't beleive it is nor do I beleive it to be better. I said before, the OP in this thread by implication insults every other country in the world. It's not surprising people make anti US statements. It's precisely how many American politicians talk and what they say might be beamed into millions of peoples homes around the world. When Bush talks about freedom and democracy the world gives out a great guffaw and that is the problem the US has.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 7:12:24 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds.

No credible source supports this number. However:

quote:

Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds.
According to a 2001 Amnesty International report, "victims of torture in Iraq are subjected to a wide range of forms of torture, including the gouging out of eyes, severe beatings and electric shocks... some victims have died as a result and many have been left with permanent physical and psychological damage."
Saddam has had approximately 40 of his own relatives murdered. According to Human Rights Watch, "senior Arab diplomats told the London-based Arabic daily newspaper al-Hayat in October [1991] that Iraqi leaders were privately acknowledging that 250,000 people were killed during the uprisings, with most of the casualties in the south." Source: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/20030404-1.html

And

quote:

The harsh truth: Before the War in Iraq, Saddam was filling his mass graves and keeping state hired rapists on his payroll. In those 20 years about 5% of the people of Iraq were killed or mysteriously disappeared. under Saddam Hussein from 36 average deaths per day from mass grave discoveries, to 137 deaths per day from a different source. http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2006/03/harsh-truth-saddams-regime-averaged-36.html

It's also good to keep in mind that the current policy is to curtail death in the region. Many dying are being killed by the same people that were killing each other before - NOT the US government or their troops. Under Saddam it was a matter of policy.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 7:52:31 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScotDom29
This was discussed in the pub last night.

If anyone can name something you can do in America that you can't do in dozens of other countries I'll finally believe this endless, nauseating, boring, stupid belief that "USA is the best country on Earth".

The fact is almost all Western democracies are much more free than America has been or ever will be. (insert WWII comment here)

Right now, I'm about to walk 50 yards down my street and play roulette. With my own money that I worked hard for. I will probably lose.

But I love living in a country where that is MY freedom of choice, not my Governments.

Americans, stick to what you do best. Eat a lot, wave a flag, bully small nations and behave like the fat kid at school that used to run around saying "I'm the best, I'm the best", while the rest of us cringed. Your country sucks. Go visit some others and see for yourselves.

Buh bye now.

Two things are disconcerting, about this post.

The first is that there is more than a bit of truth to it. I think people would like us better, if we stopped trying to force our way on everyone else: as in the spead of our political systems to places like Iraq. Perhaps Americans should only concern themselves with America, while Iraqis take care of Iraq, and the French take care of France, etc ...

The second is that after all the money American taxpayers spent on The Marshall Plan, and all the blood we let fighting in two European wars, we seem to have squandered so much good will from our friends in Europe. Sometimes it seems like a trillion dollars wasted.

Then again, perhaps posts like this are a clear indication of the mentality of some people ... those that want our help when they can't take care of themselves, and want our money afterwards.

It's a confusing situation to be sure ... but I think most Americans would be a little more willing to concern themselves only with events within our own shores, if Europeans paid back that trillion dollars.

Of course, then the poster wouldn't have his "hard earned money", to spend at the pub.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 8:26:05 AM

Arpig

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quote:

but it's important to note that every contribution we've made was built on a foundation set into place by the U.K.,

This line in your reply to my post got me thinking.....It is not really proper to consider the US in isolation, as it is part of a vast continuum of history, starting in England, and covering what is generally referred to as the "Western democracies" meaning basically the anglo-saxon based nations of Great Britain, Canada, the US, Australia, and New Zealand . While politically seperate countries, they are in effect one large cultural entity, an Empire for all practical purposes, The US provides the largest amount of frorign aid in sheer number of $, but not when viewed as a percentage of its wealth (Canada has you there, and maybe others as well...). It just depends on how you want to measure. But it is not the point really, what matters is that the countries of this "western empire" do provide vast amounts of aid to the rest of the world, and do it asking very little in return really. And more importantly, these nations generally view this aid as an essential function of government, as a duty we have to the rest of the world....to try help them.
Granted we have been ham-fisted at times, and granted that not all aid is untainted by self interest, but as a whole, the concept of foreign development aid for the sake of actually making other countries better off, and better able to compete with us is a concept unique to our nations. The differences between our nations and the way they do things are really nothing more than variations on a theme....Canada is far more socialised than the US, our healthcare, for example, and canadians accept a far greater tax burden than anyone in the US would likely even contemplate, however that is just a different view of the best way to provide the health care to the people....in Canada we are discovering that the costs of universal free health care are staggering...nearly crippling in fact, and we are being forced to move towards the US idea of self-provided insurance
Wile in the US, you are discovering that an increasingly large number of people cannot afford health care, and the US is being forced to move towards a Canadian-style health care system......we will probablly meet somewhere in the middle with a system that nobody likes, but that actually provides reasonablt affordable health care to everybody.
I am afraid I have no idea what health care system is in place in Australia or new Zealand, but I know there is a very centralised system in the UK, which is suffering from the funding problems ofthe Canadian system, and also suffers from being overly centrally bureaucratized, reducing the choicesof the people. Of these three systems that I am familiar with, none are without problems, and all three countries sees their health care system as in crisis, yet in the tradition of "western" democracy, each country will adapt and evolve, to find a system that works for its own particular circumstances...the centralised UK system would not work in Canada as we are far to large and sparsely inhabited, but we are wealthy enough a nation to bear the burden of public health insurance, the common denominator is the assumption that some method must be found to provide all our citizens with the best medical care possible and at a price that we can afford, as individuals, and as nations, we take it as a given that as citizens of these countries, we have a "right" to just that.
I have drifted way off topic here, and don't mean to hijack the thread altogether, so I will try to bring it back.....I think that rather than try to find if a nation has put the US to shame, or to proove that the US is or is not the best nation....the real focus should be to consider the effects of the "western democracies" as a whole, and in that light, I think it is safe to say that, no, there is no nation or empire that has done as much for the betterment and advancement of mankind as a whole.....and also to remember that old saying about standing on the shoulders of giants....for we are doing just that

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 8:30:41 AM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
The second is that after all the money American taxpayers spent on The Marshall Plan, and all the blood we let fighting in two European wars, we seem to have squandered so much good will from our friends in Europe. Sometimes it seems like a trillion dollars wasted.

Oh, they hated us again as soon as the Nazis were out of rifle shot. Just look at some of the pronouncements from DeGaulle just after the war and the protectionist legislation from the British government.

The real weakness of the US citizen is that he or she wants to be loved. It ain't gonna happen.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 10:07:25 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

It's a confusing situation to be sure ... but I think most Americans would be a little more willing to concern themselves only with events within our own shores, if Europeans paid back that trillion dollars.

Of course, then the poster wouldn't have his "hard earned money", to spend at the pub.

One of the reasons for the Marshall plan was the American worry over the strength of the communist parties in some western European countries such as France and Italy where the communists had played major roles in the resistance movements. The idea was to stop the spread of Russian influence, the Russians being by many Europeans as the country that had played the major contribution in defeating the German army.

The European establishments which were right wing were happy to meet all American conditions, much which was in the form of lend-lease agreements which meant that there was a proliferation of American take overs of European companies. The British however received virtually NO AID!

From Wikipedia on lend lease

'In exchange for Lend-Lease the British had to accept that they would not export any Lend-Lease matériel and agree not to export British-made products which were similar to Lend-Lease materials. The United States sent officials to Britain to police these requirements and to make sure British industry was geared to war production instead of exports. This had the effect that by 1944 British exports were 31 per cent of what they were in 1938. When the Bill for Lend-Lease was passed in the American House of Representatives it was given the 'symbolic number' 1776 the date of American independence from Britain'

Don't expect thanks.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 10:16:11 AM

DelightMachine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
It is not really proper to consider the US in isolation, as it is part of a vast continuum of history, starting in England, and covering what is generally referred to as the "Western democracies" meaning basically the anglo-saxon based nations of Great Britain, Canada, the US, Australia, and New Zealand.

Yes, that's sometimes been called "The Anglosphere" (there are websites and even books about it)and it's made up of some of the best-working, most-long-established democracies on earth.

Many, many American business people have worked for a stint in London, and quite a few in Toronto, too, and in my neck of the woods there are many, many people from the U.K., Canada and other countries who are working here. I think that's the model of the future and I think it will mean we'll converge in a lot of domestic policies over time. There are cultural differences, I think especially between the U.K. and the U.S., but yes, we're very similar.

I also think that the English language and our traditions give English-speaking countries a leg up in competing in the world economy -- now and for quite a while to come. We have a large talent pool -- supplemented by places like India where there are so many other English speakers (who may eventually teach many, many more), stable governments that are less likely to fall into disruptive crises than in other parts of the world, and lots of education. And we're a bit more open to capitalism.

Of course, a leg up isn't success itself, and plenty of other nations, even small ones, can do very well for themselves -- Europe, Korea, Japan are all good examples.

Interestingly, China has, or can be expected to have, a lot of these same strengths (large population -- talent pool -- with Mandarin widely spoken, open to capitalist policies, high regard for education). One thing it doesn't have is confidence that the government will be stable.

Actually, I think getting politics right -- that is, getting a government that is stable in the long term and doesn't hold back its people to build a good economy and create a more just society -- is the hardest thing for any country to do. Ultimately, no outsider can get you to that point, although a couple of centuries as a colony sometimes helps. Korea and Taiwan are the only two countries that I can think of that have done it for decades without having absorbed democratic forms of government as colonies.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 10:33:57 AM

Guilty1974

Posts: 467
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

The real weakness of the US citizen is that he or she wants to be loved. It ain't gonna happen.

You're making a classic reasoning error that I never expected you to make (considering your posting record). Criticising a country and it's politics hasn't got anything to do with liking or not liking the citizens of that country. I think the US as a country is heading in the wrong direction at the moment and quite fast. The chance that I'll lose part of my liberty because the US tries to make all countries do as they want (think of the war on drugs, the war on porn, etc.) right now is bigger than the chance that I'll lose my liberty because of some Iranian mollah. But that doesn't mean I dislike "US citizens". There's lot's of nice, friendly US citizens that do not try to control my life. I just hope they'll vote Bush out soon.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/23/2006 10:37:14 AM

DelightMachine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Americans aren't the only ones to be losing lives in Iraq. Estimates are that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have too. Not even saddam was killing people on that scale.

meatcleaver, there's a reason why people were given two eyes and only one mouth. Have you heard of the liberal, Bush-bashing columnist Molly Ivins? Let her be an example to you (excerpt from her July 12, 2005 column, now forever enshrined on a BDSM message board):

CROW EATEN HERE: This is a horror. In a column written June 28, I asserted that more Iraqis (civilians) had now been killed in this war than had been killed by Saddam Hussein over his 24-year rule. WRONG. Really, really wrong.

The only problem is figuring out by how large a factor I was wrong. I had been keeping an eye on civilian deaths in Iraq for a couple of months, waiting for the most conservative estimates to creep over 20,000, which I had fixed in my mind as the number of Iraqi civilians Saddam had killed.

The high-end estimate of Iraqi civilian deaths in this war is 100,000, according to a Johns Hopkins University study published in the British medical journal The Lancet last October, but I was sticking to the low-end, most conservative estimates because I didn't want to be accused of exaggeration.

Ha! I could hardly have been more wrong, no matter how you count Saddam's killing of civilians. According to Human Rights Watch, Hussein killed several hundred thousand of his fellow citizens. The massacre of the Kurdish Barzani tribe in 1983 killed at least 8,000; the infamous gas attack on the Kurdish village of Halabja killed 5,000 in 1988; and seized documents from Iraqi security organizations show 182,000 were murdered during the Anfal ethnic cleansing campaign against Kurds, also in 1988.

In 1991, following the first Gulf War, both the Kurds and the Shiites rebelled. The allied forces did not intervene, and Saddam brutally suppressed both uprisings and drained the southern marshes that had been home to a local population for more than 5,000 years.

Saddam's regime left 271 mass graves, with more still being discovered. That figure alone was the source for my original mistaken estimate of 20,000. Saddam's widespread use of systematic torture, including rape, has been verified by the U.N. Committee on Human Rights and other human rights groups over the years.

There are wildly varying estimates of the number of civilians, especially babies and young children, who died as a result of the sanctions that followed the Gulf War. While it is true that the ill-advised sanctions were put in place by the United Nations, I do not see that that lessens Hussein's moral culpability, whatever blame attaches to the sanctions themselves -- particularly since Saddam promptly corrupted the Oil for Food Program put in place to mitigate the effects of the sanctions, and used the proceeds to build more palaces, etc.

There have been estimates as high as 1 million civilians killed by Saddam, though most agree on the 300,000 to 400,000 range, making my comparison to 20,000 civilian dead in this war pathetically wrong.

I was certainly under no illusions regarding Saddam Hussein, whom I have opposed through human rights work for decades. My sincere apologies. It is unforgivable of me not have checked. I am so sorry.

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