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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 12:51:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

Is that chest thumping?

Did I say it was? I never accused you of a single thing. I simply provided you with another view point to examine.

I'd read the entire thread before I posted, by the way, so there was no need to refer me back to your earlier posts. I have a longer attention span than that.

By the way, there are other reasons people have to dislike the US that have nothing to do with how much good we've done, but rely solely on the harm that we've caused. I'm sure you won't deny that we've caused some harm in our time. Some people look at the pain they've been caused by the US and can't take other issues into account. They have that right. Honestly, in many cases, I can't say I blame them, and I think it would be unfair to ask them to reform their opinion until they're ready, if at all.

( On a side note, I hesitate to say America in reference to the US, because America can refer to North or South America. We're the United States of America, not America itself. That's one of my picky little word choice things, though.)

< Message edited by NakedOnMyChain -- 4/22/2006 12:55:36 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 1:15:24 PM

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1.
America is put to shame by the actions of the industrialized arabic nations.
America lost its civil war in the eyes of many Americans however the civil
war of the arabic nations has been going on for over 2,000 years now.
If America cant win its own wars how does it think it can contribute to anothers?
2. America is put to shame by the actions of third world countrys that
exspunge its people with funding given by America to the country to help its
inhabitants. This has been a laugh from the many Third world nations Elite who
live well off the back of American contributors.
3. America was put to shame by the UK and its very VERY young QUEEN who
showed the world what giving all for Country during war REALLY ment. Leave it
to a Woman to rally and unite the diverse people of its Kingdom to mutual victory
in a time when only the whites of America were allowed to fight for its rights.

I am American, I choose to be American above anything else because I love America. America is not perfect, but no Country thats only 200 years old is expected to be such.
America has come a long way in a short time and its the Constitution of this Land thats let it do so. Im one of those people who use to not be American. I know the world and what living in another country under its rules and laws is like. I love the country I was born in but
It too is a very young country that has a lot to learn and Im limited in what years I have to live on this green earth and I choose to live it where I know I will live it in peace and happiness by any means nessisary by the people as a whole here in the USA. Not all countries and its people are as Patriotic. I wrote My opinions above so that any reading can understand My view in a way that is not slandering but historical fact. I could go on and list many countries that might put America to shame and why but regardless of how many or the whys, doesent make America any less the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave and Im very glad to be out of many One here. But I also still love other countries of the world as well and know their good deeds and their bad and Ive put on the blindfold and weighed on the scale which country would best serve My life, My families life and Our ways, and well here We are!!! Isent Lady Justice GRAND.

Shall I continue ?

quote:

Some people look at the pain they've been caused by the US and can't take other issues into account. They have that right. Honestly, in many cases, I can't say I blame them, and I think it would be unfair to ask them to reform their opinion until they're ready, if at all.

People,Places,Things can do a thousand good things and one wrong thing and the thing most remembered is the wrong thing. Thats Human Nature at its worse, but the norm.

< Message edited by MistressDREAD -- 4/22/2006 1:18:21 PM >

(in reply to DelightMachine)

RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 1:30:52 PM

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The best pro-American arguments are on my bookshelf and CD rack along with the best pro-Brit, pro-France, pro-any country.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 1:42:25 PM

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These first three quotes are from Post #: 39
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=338069

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
[SNIP]... the American war of independence which was not about tax, since colonists didn't pay tax but about the British imposed proclaimation line which was set up to stop indian land being occupied by land hungry settlers.

Your history is wrong. The people in the port of Boston, for instance, weren't affected by the British settlement policy on the frontier and that wasn't what mattered to them. The tax that was the direct cause of the Tea Party, for instance, was a very mild tax, and that didn't even affect them much. It was the lack of representation. You have perhaps heard the phrase, "No taxation without representation"? That had more to do with it. Overall, the colonists wanted representative government in all important matters, and they didn't have it. Professor, please don't lecture us without the facts.

quote:

The truth of the matter is that most colonists had more freedom under the British than they had under the new regime in Washington and the American economy took 50 years to get back to the GDP it had under the British

Again, it was self-government they wanted, and they got it. Where did you hear the GDP didn't come back to the same level for 50 years? I'm positive that's wrong.

quote:

The flag waving doesn't hold up to even the most superficial scrutiny.

Which is certainly what you've given it. Actually, from beginning to end, your post is irrelevant, wrong and displays no care whatever for getting anything right. Not that it keeps you from putting others down.

Oh, and even if every point you made was correct, it has nothing to do with this thread.

The next three quotes are from this post by Meatcleaver:
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=338114

quote:

Just for the flag waving fraternity and I apologize to everyone else if this seems over the top but the US was built on genocide. Ulyses Grant had a starvation program to clear the land of native Americans. Slavery and black civil rights has not been a great issue on which the US can hold its head up.

If you cared about slavery and civil rights in and of themselves, it would matter to you that this country has done more to remove people from slavery to communism and get them more civil rights than any other country has. And we protected still more people from coming under the yoke of Nazis, Fascists, Imperial Japan and communists as well. And those numbers of people are multiple times the number of slaves that were ever in the United States, and even a multiple of the number of blacks who were denied civil rights.

If civil rights were really what interested you, or avoiding massacres -- because I could say much the same thing about mass murder -- then you'd be able to acknowledge what good the United States has done. But you don't want to do that, even though it was specifically what this thread is about. You might then even want to compare the good with the bad. But you're incapable of looking at both sides because civil rights, slavery, massacres and even the truth isn't what you're about, is it? What you're about is bashing the United States.

And of course, by bashing the U.S., you're getting in the way of our doing even more good in the world, such as fighting terrorists who want to massacre even more people, possibly with WMDs, if (when) they can get their hands on them.

So you simultaneously trumpet how evil slavery, civil rights and slaughter are while ultimately promoting all three.

Neat trick.

quote:

you can rip the sanctimonius flag waving crap to pieces whatever country is doing the flag waving.

Sanctimony? Crap? You're full of both.

Post #: 64 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=338630

quote:

The problem with this thread started in the OP, it didn't just about insult every other country on earth but the US, IT DID insult every other country on earth.

This thread was to bring out facts and conclusions based on facts. Facts don't insult. Although they can unsettle people. You, for instance, seem to avoid facts like the plague.

And for comic relief:
Post #: 70
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=338674

quote:

Yep. This thread just keeps right on proving how stupid and ignorant patriotism is and how foolish it makes people look to everyone but themselves.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 1:43:06 PM

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I gotta agree with the CD music there meat. The best Arguments have always been put to music. Im just a simple Woman with even simpler views.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 1:59:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain
By the way, there are other reasons people have to dislike the US that have nothing to do with how much good we've done, but rely solely on the harm that we've caused. I'm sure you won't deny that we've caused some harm in our time. Some people look at the pain they've been caused by the US and can't take other issues into account. They have that right. Honestly, in many cases, I can't say I blame them, and I think it would be unfair to ask them to reform their opinion until they're ready, if at all.

So it's unfair to ask other people to be sensible? To take the good with the bad when making a judgment about our country? If you really believe that, well, you're not being patriotic.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 2:01:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

Your history is wrong. The people in the port of Boston, for instance, weren't affected by the British settlement policy on the frontier and that wasn't what mattered to them. The tax that was the direct cause of the Tea Party, for instance, was a very mild tax, and that didn't even affect them much. It was the lack of representation. You have perhaps heard the phrase, "No taxation without representation"? That had more to do with it. Overall, the colonists wanted representative government in all important matters, and they didn't have it. Professor, please don't lecture us without the facts.

I think you ought to read your history. The people who rabble roused the Boston Tea Party were on the whole smugglers after the British decided against the tax they imposed which had the effect of undercutting the smugglers. 'No taxation without representation' was a simplistic political soundbite that has entered national myth.

America was ready for independence, it was like a wayward teenager needing to strike out on its own. The colonists were in no way subjugated by Britain. The colonies made a fortune out of Britain as was illustrated by the steep decline in the GDP of the colonies after independence. You'll find all this info in American authored history.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/22/2006 2:02:39 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 2:16:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD
3. America was put to shame by the UK and its very VERY young QUEEN who
showed the world what giving all for Country during war REALLY ment. Leave it
to a Woman to rally and unite the diverse people of its Kingdom to mutual victory
in a time when only the whites of America were allowed to fight for its rights.

Which queen are you speaking of? I'm not sure what year you are referring to, but Black people, while not always welcomed and rarely treated fairly, have been part of the US armed forces since the inception of this country. When I commanded a Marine unit, my sergeant was very proud that members of his family had fought in the American Revolution, War of 1812, the Civil War and both World War One and Two.

Oh, and did England have all that diverse a population at the time you speak of? Now I accept that not all of the English recognize the Scot as being fully homo sapien, but in reality, England was pretty homogenous from an anthropologic point of view. More a collection of tribes than a really diverse population.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 2:22:27 PM

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I think Australia looks after its own people a lot better than a lot of countries. We are given free hassle free good medical, cheap prescriptions for everyone (and free for the poor) without having to go through strenuous approval processes. Unemployed and financially disadvantaged people are given a subsidary that never has an *end* time. Basically every australian is offered a certain standard of living. I think this is a good thing as I feel it is part of a governments duty to care for *all* its citzens.

On an additional note: There are disadvantages to having our unemployment system, I think it has bred a lot of laziness...but they have changed it over recent years where people who are unemployed for a time are made to do community service, which is a really good thing..but fact remains...no one is ever without money or the ability to feed and shelter themselves here...and everyone, no matter what financial status they have, has access to the top medical professionals.

I think the worth of a government should be first viewed on how it cares for its own citizens.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 2:22:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

If you cared about slavery and civil rights in and of themselves, it would matter to you that this country has done more to remove people from slavery to communism and get them more civil rights than any other country has. And we protected still more people from coming under the yoke of Nazis, Fascists, Imperial Japan and communists as well. And those numbers of people are multiple times the number of slaves that were ever in the United States, and even a multiple of the number of blacks who were denied civil rights.

Get your history right. The US entered WWII because it was attacked by Japan and Germany declared war on the US. It did not enter the war to fight against fascism or to fight for freedom. The majority of the senate wanted to stay out of the war. The US defended itself when attacked

By the time the US entered the war the Battle of Britain had been fought and won and Britain was safe from invasion and making headway in North Africa. The first defeat suffered by Japan was at the hands of the British Indian Imperial Army. Without the US entering the war, the war probably would have gone on for years in stalemate and the US entering the war was important to bring it to a successful conclusion. However, the country that ripped the heart out of the German army was Russia.

Most Europeans are grateful to the US for the aid after the war but your analysis is like Holywood films. The US did not win the war, they were on the winning side.

As for communism. PJ O'Rourke said. Any administration only had to send a CIA agent on a shopping trip to Moscow to realise the Russians couldn't organise a shopping trip, never mind a war. The whole system rotted away from the inside. Government papers that have been released show that western governments knew the Russian threat was a paper tiger but it was convenient for them to keep up the fear. A fear that not all Europeans were fearful of.

So while the US made a major contribution to the war effort and many countries are thankful for that, it did not on its own save the free world.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 2:29:50 PM

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i have a question. why is it that the "patriotic" chest-thumpers in this thread tend to a have a "like it or get out" reaction? why is it that it can't be "like it or work to change it"? personally i don't WANT to move, but i'm sick of being told that if i don't like it i shouldn't be here. i like the country just fine, it's the government i'd like to change.

by the way, delightmachine, based on your responses to posts here, you're being just as one sided as the people you're accusing. hypocrite much?

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 2:31:34 PM

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Once upon a time I visited the old Dachau Concentration Camp. There was a man out the front of it, each time someone passed him he asked what country they were from. When the person told him, he would rattle off all the atrocities that country had committed. I guess he was trying to balance peoples holier than thou attitudes when viewing the bad histories of "other peoples" countries.

During the history of any country, there are good and bad aspects.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 2:37:52 PM

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From an earlier Meatcleaver post:

quote:

the American economy took 50 years to get back to the GDP it had under the British

Well, here's some quick research on the Web that you haven't done.

If we assume that Wikipedia is correct:
U.S. population in 1770: 2.15 million
U.S. population in 1780: 2.78 million
In 1820 (50 years later): 9.63 million
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States#Census_Totals_and_Estimates

Overall per capita income:
This page has a chart that shows per capita income levels.
1770: $200
1780: $160
1790: $164 (roughly)
1800: $200
1810: $200
1820: $186 (roughly)
1840: $200 -- and the amount goes up from there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_United_States#New_nation
I didn't see a source for the graph.

So by 1820, per capita income was down by 7 percent from what it was in 1770, but the population was well over three times as high. Therefore GNP did more than recover, but grew by quite a bit. Perhaps you'd dispute Wikipedia (but do it with some actual facts, please). According to that source, your numbers don't add up. Then again, nothing else adds up with your posts either.

EDITED to add 1770 population figure.

< Message edited by DelightMachine -- 4/22/2006 3:04:00 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 2:40:46 PM

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I'll get you the figures but not today.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 2:47:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

i have a question. why is it that the "patriotic" chest-thumpers in this thread tend to a have a "like it or get out" reaction? why is it that it can't be "like it or work to change it"? personally i don't WANT to move, but i'm sick of being told that if i don't like it i shouldn't be here. i like the country just fine, it's the government i'd like to change.

by the way, delightmachine, based on your responses to posts here, you're being just as one sided as the people you're accusing. hypocrite much?

Hypocrite not at all, and you have no reason to get nasty. I haven't insulted you. I've concentrated on what my thread is about, for the most part, and tried to avoid getting sidetracked. I wrote a lot about that in my last post answering you. I've been trying to discuss the benefits that have come from this country and (by implication) what that should mean about people who hate this country and about unpatriotic Americans. I'm not a hypocrite if I don't allow myself to be sidetracked from that much. I haven't denied that we've done wrong and I haven't denied that others have done good. I've demanded fair treatment and given it.

If people perceive that someone doesn't like his or her own country, they have every reason to wonder why that person stays, and you shouldn't be insulted by that.

And the chest thumpers certainly aren't on one side, as this thread has proven.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 3:01:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Get your history right. The US entered WWII because it was attacked by Japan and Germany declared war on the US. It did not enter the war to fight against fascism or to fight for freedom. The majority of the senate wanted to stay out of the war. The US defended itself when attacked

By the time the US entered the war the Battle of Britain had been fought and won and Britain was safe from invasion and making headway in North Africa. The first defeat suffered by Japan was at the hands of the British Indian Imperial Army. Without the US entering the war, the war probably would have gone on for years in stalemate and the US entering the war was important to bring it to a successful conclusion. However, the country that ripped the heart out of the German army was Russia.

You're trying to change the question at hand: Did the U.S. action result in liberation of millions and protection of millions more from slavery, lack of civil rights and mass murder or did it not? The answer is obviously yes, and you're squirming about it.

If the United States didn't enter the war, even by your analysis, when Germany and Italy were defeated there would have been a much larger Soviet empire and a weaker Britain, and Imperial Japan would not have been defeated. Totalitarian states would have dominated the world from the Atlantic to the Pacific. And just how long would Britain have lasted without American assistance, assistance given even before we entered the war? I said benefit, I didn't say how. Was the world better off or not for America getting in the war? Quit changing the subject.

quote:

Most Europeans are grateful to the US for the aid after the war but your analysis is like Holywood films. The US did not win the war, they were on the winning side.

My analysis is abbreviated. Your analysis is like Soviet films.

quote:

The whole system rotted away from the inside. Government papers that have been released show that western governments knew the Russian threat was a paper tiger but it was convenient for them to keep up the fear.

Thank you for the Howard Zinn version of history. Most historians would agree that the U.S. arms buildup, particularly during the Reagan years, was a decisive factor in draining the Soviet Union. Our opposing them also prevented them from conquering more territory, which would have lengthened the lifetime of that empire. This is not hard to see if you're not diligently trying to avoid seeing it.

I haven't detected a whiff of fairness in a single thing you've posted.

EDITED to correct a typo.

< Message edited by DelightMachine -- 4/22/2006 3:06:07 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 3:23:35 PM

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I've been reading this thread and some things make me chuckle, some make me shake my head in disbelief and some things speak to my gut. Sure I love my country and I think for being relatively young, we, as a nation, haven't done that bad. But, come on. A lot of this is like expecting a two year old to know Algebra. At least let us get into grammar school, get some maturity behind us.. let us live a little. Frankly, I don't think it's all that balanced a view to compare the US to a country which has been around for a couple of thousand years more than we have and then bash us when we are lacking. In a couple of thousand years, we may be doing a lot more right, too! If we don't grow up and mature then hit us over the head for not taking advantage of our own potential. We, as a nation, are going to screw up.. a lot. It's part of the growing process. Every nation goes through it. Some never get passed the toddler stage, others take great leaps and bounds and continue to do so. We can look at other countries and see what works, and in time, if it's going to work here.. the citizens will make it happen, one way or the other. If it doesn't work, much like the Edsel, it will go away... part of history, even a sour part of history but used only to remember what doesn't work and avoid continually repeating it. Being proud of one's country is not a bad thing and I would hope that each nation is composed of beings who are proud of living within it's borders and if it's not, I would hope those citizens have the opportunity to change what's not working. Certainly the US gives such opportunities to it's citizens. If other countries don't, then that's something that they can look to for their own growth. That's their choice to make, not ours.
The world is old. Man has been around for thousands and thousands of years in hundreds of countries around the globe. Since America became a nation great things have happened and horrible things have happened, both through our own doing and through the doings of others. We can take pride in our greatness and should be humbled by those things which are not so great. We can acknowledge our accomplishments and take responsibilities for our actions and that has nothing to do with any nationality. Every citizen in the world has that same choice in regard to their own country. I'm not in the America love it or leave it category.. I'm simply an American who does the best I can with what I've got and try to leave the world a little bit better than I found it. I think 'most' people try to leave things better than they find them. I know my parents did.. and my grandparents did and my great grandparents, two of who were not born in this country in the first place. If you're Norwegian, you can love your country and try to fix what you think needs fixing, if you're Swedish, Japanese, Iraqi or yes, American .. if you are whatever, you can do the same thing even if it just means you recycle. Hell, let's face it.. it doesn't really matter what country anyone lives in anyway, we all share a common planet and we are all, ultimately, human and like I said in another thread.. if humans are involved, things are messy.

Celeste

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 4:38:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

Did the U.S. action result in liberation of millions and protection of millions more from slavery, lack of civil rights and mass murder or did it not? The answer is obviously yes, and you're squirming about it.

If the United States didn't enter the war, even by your analysis, when Germany and Italy were defeated there would have been a much larger Soviet empire and a weaker Britain, and Imperial Japan would not have been defeated. Totalitarian states would have dominated the world from the Atlantic to the Pacific. And just how long would Britain have lasted without American assistance, assistance given even before we entered the war? I said benefit, I didn't say how. Was the world better off or not for America getting in the war? Quit changing the subject.

quote:

Most Europeans are grateful to the US for the aid after the war but your analysis is like Holywood films. The US did not win the war, they were on the winning side.

My analysis is abbreviated. Your analysis is like Soviet films.

quote:

The whole system rotted away from the inside. Government papers that have been released show that western governments knew the Russian threat was a paper tiger but it was convenient for them to keep up the fear.

Thank you for the Howard Zinn version of history. Most historians would agree that the U.S. arms buildup, particularly during the Reagan years, was a decisive factor in draining the Soviet Union. Our opposing them also prevented them from conquering more territory, which would have lengthened the lifetime of that empire. This is not hard to see if you're not diligently trying to avoid seeing it.

I haven't detected a whiff of fairness in a single thing you've posted.

EDITED to correct a typo.

The USA made a major contribution to the winning of WWII, so did Russia, Britain, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, Canada etc. So how does that make the US special?

I never said the USA entered the war when Germany and Italy were defeated. You are deliberately changing what I said. I suggest you reread what I wrote. I said Britain had won the Battle of Britain and was safe from German invasion and I didn't even mention Italy.

Nobody is denying the USA didn't play a vital role. The US didn't save the world on its own, it was on the winning side. So the US contributed to the west being free so did a lot of countries. So how does that make the US special?

As for the stand off in Europe and America being prepared to fight the third world war on European soil and not its own. Why should Europeans be gratefiul for that? Most Europeans weren't paranoid of the USSR in the same way Americans were because we weren't constantly fed with fear of the red menace. Europeans knew Russia couldn't depend on its own supposed allies to fight along side it. There had been enough uprisings.

If you think Reagan had much to do with the collapse of the USSR you are in fantasyland. The USSR was crumbling decades before that and the west knew it. If you were a Catholic, no doubt you would be saying the Pope had a lot to do with the downfall of the USSR, another fantasy.

And you keep forgetting. There are many countries in the world that see the USA as oppressive and not at all a defender of freedom. The USA has been quite willing to keep corrupt and oppressive regimes in power for the sake of access to raw materials. Why do you think so many American flags are burnt around the world. Because the USA is seen as defending the rights of the people?

I can understand anyone being proud of their country but you ought to take off you rose tinted glasses and look at the reality from time to time. It is not for nothing that people around the world don't lay down palm fronds for passing American businessmen and politicians.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/22/2006 4:42:41 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 5:03:33 PM

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If you made a similar argument to your OP from a European perspective, I would still be arguing against you because the question you pose would be equally naive, simplistic and abhorently patriotic.

You've also made assumptions I hold a certain passport.

(in reply to DelightMachine)

RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 5:31:20 PM

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

i have a question. why is it that the "patriotic" chest-thumpers in this thread tend to a have a "like it or get out" reaction? why is it that it can't be "like it or work to change it"? personally i don't WANT to move, but i'm sick of being told that if i don't like it i shouldn't be here. i like the country just fine, it's the government i'd like to change.

by the way, delightmachine, based on your responses to posts here, you're being just as one sided as the people you're accusing. hypocrite much?

My whole objection on this thread, was some foreigners bashing the US in other threads and the press, and it just passes, and to a lesser degree americans just bashing and not saying anything else. But if someone posts a pro US thread, here comes the rational detractors. I think love it or leave it may be sound logic But I'd never force anybody to leave.

There is a difference between saying, I think america would be better if they modeled their health care system after australia,canadian or whereever. See that's a suggestion for improvement(not to me, but some think so), but at least someone is trying to suggest a improvement. And someone posting. American was founded on the death of Indians, and partiotism is stupid. That comment is purely negative and does nothing. It's meant just to merely insult, not to provide anything else. That is my objection, people just spouting idle negative comments about, but suggesting nothing. Just tearing down.

But for some reason generally someone disrespecting the US just gets accepted. Whereas someone being partiotic is immediately targeted. Bizarre, personally if I didn't like this country I probably would move. I'm not saying anyone has to though.

My problem is when people don't offer anything positive, just idle complaining, and digging up misdeeds, that occurred while my great-great grandparents were still in Germany. Not sure how 200 year old misdeeds or good deeds apply. Since the country is no where near the same since then.

My view is I'm of the belief that the US is the best place on the earth as of April 22 2006. And since I've been able to comprehend such things. More power to anybody that feels I'm wrong, or feels their country is better. But generally people just say spew crap out their mouths trying to tear the perception of the US down. Instead of saying x country is better, and here's why. They simple say the US sucks. There is a difference there.

Thanks.

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 4/22/2006 5:33:21 PM >

(in reply to fullofgrace)

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