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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 11:44:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace
this country has done good and bad, and i'm not one to ignore one in favor of the other - either way. however, i don't think this thread has anything to do with patriotism or with what america's done, i think it's pretty much a middle finger one up to every other country in the world, and i personally find that a) childish b) idiotic and c) condescending. and i don't think the fact that i'm not afraid to bring that up makes me any less patriotic.

One little comment acknowledging in general and without any detail, that America has done good, and not even mentioning how much good. You may recall that the original post asked you to consider whether any other country ever has actually done more good. Then you go on and on about how much chest thumping is going on. Then you criticize criticize and criticize. It doesn't sound very patriotic, does it? I mean, if you can barely acknowledge the good and must go on and on about the bad about your country, is it insulting to you to suggest that maybe you don't really like it? And if that's the case, would it be insulting to suggest that for your own good you examine the other possibilities of where to live?

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 11:48:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace
this country has done good and bad, and i'm not one to ignore one in favor of the other - either way. however, i don't think this thread has anything to do with patriotism or with what america's done, i think it's pretty much a middle finger one up to every other country in the world, and i personally find that a) childish b) idiotic and c) condescending. and i don't think the fact that i'm not afraid to bring that up makes me any less patriotic.

One little comment acknowledging in general and without any detail, that America has done good, and not even mentioning how much good. You may recall that the original post asked you to consider whether any other country ever has actually done more good. Then you go on and on about how much chest thumping is going on. Then you criticize criticize and criticize. It doesn't sound very patriotic, does it? I mean, if you can barely acknowledge the good and must go on and on about the bad about your country, is it insulting to you to suggest that maybe you don't really like it? And if that's the case, would it be insulting to suggest that for your own good you examine the other possibilities of where to live?

when you have to live my experience of america, then i'll welcome you to get on your fucking high horse and condemn me for criticizing it. but until you'd like to pay for my health insurance or feed and clothe the number of people i know who are living without the help of this country in any way, then please excuse the fact that i tend to focus on the bad, because i have to live in the middle of it. if i could afford to live somewhere else, i would, but both of my parents died in the last six months and i barely have enough money to pay my bills and go to school, let alone think about immigrating to another country. sorry everyone isn't able to have the opportunities you might.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 2:50:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

when you have to live my experience of america, then i'll welcome you to get on your fucking high horse and condemn me for criticizing it. but until you'd like to pay for my health insurance or feed and clothe the number of people i know who are living without the help of this country in any way, then please excuse the fact that i tend to focus on the bad, because i have to live in the middle of it. if i could afford to live somewhere else, i would, but both of my parents died in the last six months and i barely have enough money to pay my bills and go to school, let alone think about immigrating to another country. sorry everyone isn't able to have the opportunities you might.

I'm sorry but I can't help. So, you are mad at this country because you are broke?

What the hell does that have to do with anything. Blaming the whole country for your personal misfortune. Did the government or populace in general do that to you.

I'm really confused how one goes from I had bad things happen to me on a personal level, to I dislike the whole country. No offense, if you want to get into a contest of shitty fortunes few could beat my story. But the difference is I don't blame the country or even my community. Hell, I don't even blame the people that caused it anymore.

So, your mad that you have to pay for your own medical insurance, your own food and clothing, and pay your own bills.

Wow, I'm completely confused now, what does any of this have to do with anybody but you. I mean are you really saying your mad that nobody's paying for all those things for you. Really, I'm trying to understand what your train of thought is. Please explain, I'm going to bust a blood vessel trying to figure out how one thing relates to another.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 3:28:04 AM

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The problem with this thread started in the OP, it didn't just about insult every other country on earth but the US, IT DID insult every other country on earth.

US tourist organisations are starting a campagne asking American tourists who go abroad to be more diplomatic and accept other countries do things differently because it is concerned about the huge drop in numbers of foreign tourists visiting the US because apparently, according to THEIR OWN report foreigners see Americans as chauvanist, loud mouthed and arrogant. This thread is supporting that view.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 4:09:31 AM

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Honestly people, stop replying to this thread. As I said earlier, the original poster doesn't actually want you to answer his points, he simply wants you to agree with his.

Just say "Yes, you're right. America is the most wonderful place ever" and let him move on to a different subject.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 4:25:30 AM

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I think dm does indeed believe America is the best country in the world, but due to some bashing, he offered this thread up for dissenting views to prove him wrong with facts.

I have no idea if any nation puts America to shame, I'm too ignorant to be able to give such definitive statements. I love America and am deeply proud of my home. There are also many wonderful countries out there, such as Canada, Sweden, England, Australia, Japan, and The Netherlands. I would hope the citizens of these fair nations are proud of their homes as well.

The world is a multifaceted jewel, in which one can find dickheads and angels in every corner.

Level

< Message edited by Level -- 4/22/2006 4:27:20 AM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 4:34:31 AM

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Delight, this comming tuesday (my time) I'll as usuall be attending the local Anzac Day Parade and laying a wreath for the Aussies who died in 'Nam... In my own time and because it is outside of Anzac Day, I'll be placeing a wreath on the outgoing tide at the beach for all the US guys and especially remembering my 110 troopers who didn't make it back I the five years I was there.... Yeah, I'll start a thread on Anzac Day too so In one way I'll join you in chest thumping.... Or is it one of simple pride.... One thread though in a year... Join me mate on that thread when I post it....

< Message edited by IronBear -- 4/22/2006 4:35:43 AM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 4:58:58 AM

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You say we don't need nor want him here! Of course we need and want him here. How else will we have anyone to degrade and ridicule for their "It's may ball and if you don't want to play by my rules I'm taking my ball and going home." attitude. Sounds pretty childish doesn't it. Well these people have yet to grow beyond their third grade mentality and still see the world as "MINE, MINE, MINE!" Ten to one this poster never served in the Military. Why is that important? Anyone who has served in the Military and spent anytime outside the U.S. knows just how good this country treats it's citizens, even the illegals. Why do you think everyone wants to come here in the first place? Here or Canada? Why? Look at the laws of the other countries. In many countries if he posted this he would end up in prison, not jail, prison! Without a trial, with no recourse, and as in Turkey, with no support from the Government. What do I mean by "No support from the Government?" I was in the Military in 1972, in Istanbul. Two Active Duty Marines were arrested by the Turkish Police for Possession of Hasish (legal to sell, not legal to possess). They were imprisoned, without even a hearing, in a dungeon that would make even the most hardened Dom/me/Master/Mistress cringe. Their cell was approximately fifty feet below ground with no light, running water, or ventilation. The rats, as big as large house cats, gnawed on them constantly. Because they were American citizens, the American consulat was responsible for feeding them, clothing them, providing them with medical care, and also providing them with an interpreter and legal council (no public defenders or bail there). Also their trial was scheduled for "Sometime as would be convienent for the Court." Americans seem to think they have all their civil rights where ever they go, not true.

So, if you have a problem with the way you're treated in this country, try to find a better one. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I do know that Austrilia has limited immigration, especially from the U.S., for some time to come. Try Canada, oh wait a minute, there's that silly law they have that yes you can immigrate but, you can not hold any position which could otherwise be held by a Canadian citizen. Good luck on that one. Well then there's always The UK, opps, silly law again. OK, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark, opps silly law again. Does the U.S. have this silly law? Certainly, it's just not enforced here like in the other countries.

So now what is your next course of action? I guess the best thing is to get up off your dead a** and find a job with benefits, go to work, and be glad you are allowed the priveledge of complaining about how bad "YOU" think things are here.

Sir Pain

(in reply to needtotorture)

RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 4:59:49 AM

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Indeed and that's my very point. You don't need people to validate your viewpoint about America because you know it's a great place to live.

I love England. I just can't imagine a time where I'd ever insult someone elses country by saying it was better than theirs.

Even though it's better than everyone's.

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 4/22/2006 5:01:07 AM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 5:14:48 AM

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Yep. This thread just keeps right on proving how stupid and ignorant patriotism is and how foolish it makes people look to everyone but themselves.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 5:23:15 AM

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The US may well have benefited more people than any other country in the world.

But when one looks at the number of other nations and people that the US has damaged, it's also a big number.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 7:04:36 AM

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I think EnglishDomNW, that a reasonably small percentage of Americans have those, "We are better than everyone else.", feelings that you hear so often. I believe you hear them so often, because the people that have those feelings, usually have them at the top of their lungs, and with flags waving.

Nations are human things. They do what they do, with the same motivations that human's use for everythiing. When one nation helps another, there are those that do it for humanitarian reasons, those that do it because they want a military base, and those that do it because they want a people to exploit with trade goods.

I try to stick to thoughts that can be quantified.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 7:31:09 AM

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quote:

if i could afford to live somewhere else, i would

fullof,
No you couldn't. Even if you wanted to go to a country and pay 60%+ of you salary to pay for the health care you can't afford in the US, you couldn't. Maybe you can try France and get in the line that includes 75% of others of your generation without jobs. The problem is, other places enforce and have grave penalties for illegal immigration, and without a job or a skill that the destination country found "valuable" you wouldn't be allowed in. The thing is you HAVE opportunities. Included is the opportunity to complain, blame the county, and feel sorry for you situation instead of doing something to change it. The shame of it, you have an asset that I can only envy - time. Choose to spent it and you have a self fulfilling prophecy of failure; invest it and there is the potential that you'll start thread about the opportunities available in the US. Ironically it's the illegal alien problem that best points this out. People are risking their lives to get IN to the US. What do they see that you don't?

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 8:04:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirPain

Try Canada, oh wait a minute, there's that silly law they have that yes you can immigrate but, you can not hold any position which could otherwise be held by a Canadian citizen. Good luck on that one.

I know what you're refering to here, but you've really twisted it to put it in a particular light. There isn't a law that says an immigrant can't hold a position which could otherwise be held by a Canadian. As part of the immigration process, job skills are accessed and the ones that are in certain catagory garner more points. If you have an employer willing to say they have a position for you to fill, you'll score even higher--regardless of the type of job--but even that is not necessary. Experience in any field is an asset, but all of it is really only one aspect of the immigration process, and most applicable if you're applying under "skilled worker" catagory. Each case is considered on its own merits, and the older guidelines (not laws) of the process are no longer even applicable anymore. For instance, one no longer has to have the requisit funds to be considered.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 11:15:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

when you have to live my experience of america, then i'll welcome you to get on your fucking high horse and condemn me for criticizing it. but until you'd like to pay for my health insurance or feed and clothe the number of people i know who are living without the help of this country in any way, then please excuse the fact that i tend to focus on the bad, because i have to live in the middle of it. if i could afford to live somewhere else, i would, but both of my parents died in the last six months and i barely have enough money to pay my bills and go to school, let alone think about immigrating to another country. sorry everyone isn't able to have the opportunities you might.

I'm sorry but I can't help. So, you are mad at this country because you are broke?

What the hell does that have to do with anything. Blaming the whole country for your personal misfortune. Did the government or populace in general do that to you.

I'm really confused how one goes from I had bad things happen to me on a personal level, to I dislike the whole country. No offense, if you want to get into a contest of shitty fortunes few could beat my story. But the difference is I don't blame the country or even my community. Hell, I don't even blame the people that caused it anymore.

So, your mad that you have to pay for your own medical insurance, your own food and clothing, and pay your own bills.

Wow, I'm completely confused now, what does any of this have to do with anybody but you. I mean are you really saying your mad that nobody's paying for all those things for you. Really, I'm trying to understand what your train of thought is. Please explain, I'm going to bust a blood vessel trying to figure out how one thing relates to another.

i apologize for my virulence; my main issue is that you can't respect that i have reasons for thinking the way i do, just as you have reasons for thinking the way you do. i find it insulting that people feel the need to condescend to me because they don't respect my reasons. i feel that i have pretty damn good reasons for criticizing the government, which i happen to separate from the country; i love the us, i'm not exhaustively interested in living anywhere else, but there are other countries' governments i would rather live under (if, caveat for the benefit of merc and beth, i could afford to move there and make it through the immigration process). i am not blaming this country for the way my life is right now, but i do think the government could be doing a whole lot more for its people in terms of making provisions for social welfare (among other things), which is an issue full of negativity that i unfortunately have to live in the middle of. that's one of the biggest things that i tend to look at in these situations, and right now, what the us government is doing is throwing a bandaid on a severed limb, in my opinion, based on experience. i apologize if it's hard to look past that when you are in the middle of it. another issue that i'm somewhat in the middle of is our treatment of legal immigrants and us citizens who are middle eastern or indian, which i currently find absolutely disgusting.

things i appreciate and find good about this country? free speech laws. legalized abortion. the fact that, even though i feel a lot of our humanitarian aid is more meant for the government to save face than to actually help, we ARE trying to help other countries. that yes, there are opportunities, even for illegal immigrants. that i can go to school and study what i want with funding mostly based on my grades, so that takes some of the pressure off of me. that i can practice the religion i want with minimal discrimination and a lot less discrimination than i'd find in other countries.

quote:

The problem is, other places enforce and have grave penalties for illegal immigration, and without a job or a skill that the destination country found "valuable" you wouldn't be allowed in. The thing is you HAVE opportunities. Included is the opportunity to complain, blame the county, and feel sorry for you situation instead of doing something to change it. The shame of it, you have an asset that I can only envy - time. Choose to spent it and you have a self fulfilling prophecy of failure; invest it and there is the potential that you'll start thread about the opportunities available in the US. Ironically it's the illegal alien problem that best points this out. People are risking their lives to get IN to the US. What do they see that you don't?

to be honest with you, i'm not quite sure what's on the list of "valuable" skills, but i do have marketable skills that may qualify. as far as what i am doing about my situation - i am working to change it. right now, in between trying to finish the semester, i'm working on starting my own business. i will also probably take on a regular job this summer in addition to going to school. right now things are very difficult, which makes it really hard to NOT focus on the bad, but that doesn't mean i don't realize that there is some good in my situation. there probably isn't a potential that i'll start a thread about opportunities available in the us, however, because i tend to stay away from anything that even might have thought in a past life of mentioning anything that may have to do with politics or government policy, and i'll stick to that much more religiously after my experiences in this thread. as far as people risking their lives to get in the us, i think a lot of it has to do with the fact that, well, the us is a far cry better than the countries they are coming from, and has opportunities for them, a fact that i don't ignore. or, in the case of my roommate (who is a legal immigrant, actually), her family would have ended up dead if they'd stayed in bangladesh, so they went from being one of the richest families there to being of the poorest here, for other reasons.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 11:31:35 AM

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirPain

Try Canada, oh wait a minute, there's that silly law they have that yes you can immigrate but, you can not hold any position which could otherwise be held by a Canadian citizen. Good luck on that one.

Ya know girl gets pissed when she sees others putting down the U.S. but even more so when her country is attacked......Anyone who has the education to get a job a Canadian could get if they had the education is welcome to get said job.

girl lives in Canada, but does NOT put down the U.S. as she has lived there at one time, but sadly dad go violently ill and she had to come home to deal with him being sick.

Canada does indeed have it's fault....IE: two tiered healthcare system (those with money get seen first at the emergency department at hospitals versus those who don't) but we also have free healthcare for those who can not afford to pay for it.

Until You know Canada and have lived here 39yrs on and off then get off Your fucking high horse and shut your cake hole about it. if you have lived here at all then bully for you. if not you are a biased lil prick who needs to learn about Canada.

girl apologises to those whom may be offended, although she will NOT apologise to SirPain.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 12:02:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

One little comment acknowledging in general and without any detail, that America has done good, and not even mentioning how much good. You may recall that the original post asked you to consider whether any other country ever has actually done more good.

Just a small something I thought of when I read this post...

You can't put the US on a set black and white scale to measure good works with other countries without taking other issues into account. For example, we have to take into account how much money the US has compared to other countries, both govermental and from private citizens. Then you have to take into account the actual percent of average income spent towards these good works. You also have to take population into account. If you look at it as a fair comparison based on other issues than lump country output, we haven't done nearly as much as we could or should have.

You can't say, "Well, the US has spent the most money, and done the most for other countries," without taking into account that, for the most part, we have a damned lot more resources to work with than other countries, and we haven't used them nearly as effectively as certain other nations have used theirs.

It would be nice if things were so cut and dried, but they're not. There are too many grey areas for me to sit here and say, "The US is the best nation for helping others." I don't believe we are, all things considered.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 12:23:20 PM

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NakedOnMyChain:
All good points, but I think you misunderstand what I was trying to do with this thread. I didn't want to prove that my nation is the best, and I didn't want to put down other nations. What I wanted to do was confront anti-Americans with the glaring fact that this country has provided the rest of the world with a lot of benefits. I also wanted to smoke out anti-Americans who think that they can fool the rest of us (and maybe themselves) into thinking that all they're doing is criticizing when in fact they're attacking. There's a difference, and it's damn useful to remember it.

I'll repeat what I said in some earlier posts:

quote:

But my point is that once you recognize that so much good has come to the rest of the world from this country as a government and as a society, it's kind of hard for anyone, even the half-rational, to actually hate this country -- at least if there's any value to that person at all.

Post #: 45
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=338403

quote:

You see, the difference between someone honestly criticizing this country and someone who hates it is that the critic will acknowledge the good as well as the bad. The hater won't.

Post #: 57
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=338488

Incidentally, I've also been very open-minded here. Not only have I NOT put down any other country, I've said that when you compare other nations, states or nation-states:
1. The Vatican/Catholic Church has probably done more good than the U.S./America.
2. The United Kingdom comes very close to the U.S. in having benefited people outside its borders. (And, I'll add, it's done it with a smaller population, although it's had a longer history.)
3. I think China, throughout its history, may have done more good for more people overall than the U.S. has, throughout American history.

Is that chest thumping?

< Message edited by DelightMachine -- 4/22/2006 12:24:33 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 12:34:08 PM

DarkSideOfThMoon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

when you have to live my experience of america, then i'll welcome you to get on your fucking high horse and condemn me for criticizing it. but until you'd like to pay for my health insurance or feed and clothe the number of people i know who are living without the help of this country in any way, then please excuse the fact that i tend to focus on the bad, because i have to live in the middle of it. if i could afford to live somewhere else, i would, but both of my parents died in the last six months and i barely have enough money to pay my bills and go to school, let alone think about immigrating to another country. sorry everyone isn't able to have the opportunities you might.

I'm sorry but I can't help. So, you are mad at this country because you are broke?

What the hell does that have to do with anything. Blaming the whole country for your personal misfortune. Did the government or populace in general do that to you.

I'm really confused how one goes from I had bad things happen to me on a personal level, to I dislike the whole country. No offense, if you want to get into a contest of shitty fortunes few could beat my story. But the difference is I don't blame the country or even my community. Hell, I don't even blame the people that caused it anymore.

So, your mad that you have to pay for your own medical insurance, your own food and clothing, and pay your own bills.

Wow, I'm completely confused now, what does any of this have to do with anybody but you. I mean are you really saying your mad that nobody's paying for all those things for you. Really, I'm trying to understand what your train of thought is. Please explain, I'm going to bust a blood vessel trying to figure out how one thing relates to another.

I don't think anyone should be denied health care because they can't afford it. 45 million americans have no health care, 74% of these work/parents work. That seems simply wrong to me. Hence Englands NHS; which people may conmplain about but it's a hell of alot better then not having any!

Americas reluctance to admit there is a global warming problem is a huge issue. it is simple, we need to cut down on greenhouse gases and start researching some long term solutions - cause these big businesses who seem to be controlling the american government aren't going to be too happy when the fuel runs out...

Also - why does everyone think catholics/vatican are great? Enforcing your religion on people is NOT great, sure, the church does some great stuff - not just catholics. English will be familiar with the shoe box appeal and such. But helping people and then teaching your religion seems to go against what I believe in. Telling people in countried such as africa where STD's and Aids are common, that contraception is immoral is a wrong thing to do. I'm not kidding when I say that in terms of people studies, part of the reason LEDC's have larger family units is because there is no entertainment. They are not going to stop having sex... Not to mention not letting teenage rape victims have abortions and such...

That's my tuppence for now.

< Message edited by DarkSideOfThMoon -- 4/22/2006 12:39:26 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/22/2006 12:39:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl
Can i join the non US CM as i'd rather be with the people on that side. Far as i know.. and well i know first hand experience from a vast majority of ppl around the world (hong kong is a major melting pot.. or was) That the majority of ppl around the world, think americans are idiots, loud mouths, and rude. We arent liked and i've seen the reasoning, and witness first hand why. Quite honestly, when i had to move back to the states, i was soooooo disapointed. My friends, who werent american laughed at me and my thoughts were "oh great i have to go back there" Plus alot of derogatory words as well - )

When it comes to the great US has done.. i can back it up with just as much crap its done. If not outwiegh it, but you'd have to give me time to get my facts/info straight

Somebody emailed me to say I'd bashed her for her comments so why don't I bash RiotGirl for her anti-American comments.

Well, it's not that RiotGirl doesn't admit that she's anti-American, she just puts it right out there, which is what I wanted the anti-Americans and the unpatriotic Americans to do, so I'm not going to criticize her for it -- just give her points for it.

And it's not as if she's really made any points that I want to refute on this thread. Doesn't like living in America ... would rather live abroad -- hey, nothing for me to debate. Says Britain probably did more for the world than America -- well, I've answered that elsewhere. Says she could come up with just as much bad about America that cancel's out the good -- a bit beyond the scope of my thread, but if she could come up with some kind of a useful list of both, it would be interesting. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

And besides all that, RiotGirl writes in a very charming way and I like seeing her sexy pic. I also have doubts about how serious she is, partly because she doesn't say much to back up her opinions. So whaddaya want from me?

EDITED TO ADD:

Oh, here's why I find her writing so delightful -- it's hard for me not to smile when someone writes something like:

quote:

yeah i'll second the nomination of England and i'm too lazy to start going through their history. Granted they've done alot of crap, like destroy culture after culture.. but on the whole.. they're awesome.

Post #: 50
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=338438
If you're not going to be serious, you might as well do it with flair. And not take yourself seriously. A lot of posters on these boards take themselves very, very seriously, and display less seriousness than RiotGirl does.

quote:

When it comes to the great US has done.. i can back it up with just as much crap its done. If not outwiegh it, but you'd have to give me time to get my facts/info straight

Post #: 51
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=338447

< Message edited by DelightMachine -- 4/22/2006 12:47:03 PM >

_____________________________

I'd rather be in
Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

(in reply to RiotGirl)

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