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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 5:56:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
You may not realize this, but what you've written is offensive to those who must carefully manage these concerns and who may well not be able to "pick up the tab at a restaurant" yet are kind and chivalrous in ways well beyond what money can buy.

You are taking umbrage instead of getting the point. She is not going to care if you can't take her to a five star restaurant. Go to the grocery store, get some nummy food, and take her on a picnic. Take her to the $5/plate Chinese restaurant, and also surprise her with a gift of a CD of some music you think she would like. $10 for dinner plus $15 for the CD is $25.

Good conversation plus cheap eats is worth far more than crappy conversation plus highfalutin eats. And, if you're arguing over the bill, she'll remember the bitterness of that conversation far longer than she will how good the food tasted.

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 7:32:51 AM

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This thread and ones that we've had in the past like it on this subject seriously does make Me feel for those of you who date. Please understand that I'm not saying that to be condescending. It just comes across to Me as being so damn complicated. Isn't the point of the date to go out, have fun, and get to know the person better? The way it comes across on threads like this, that idea seems to get lost. (Which I guess is ok, since this whole thing started on an entirely different topic. It seems rather simple that clients should pay if we were talking about pro domination.)

It seems to Me that, if you invite someone to dinner, that means you are asking them to be your guest, just the same as if you were inviting them to your home. Nobody opens their door for their dinner guest and says, "your portion of the dinner party is thirty bucks" before they come in. (Though I do agree with what has been mentioned in this thread about a guest bringing wine, dessert, or a gift for the host.) Why is it any different because of where you have dinner? The host is the person paying for the meal either way, whether they are buying the food and making it at home or if it's by paying the check at the restaurant.

If you do want to go dutch, I do think that is something that you should tell someone up front. That way, the person can make their decision before the scheduled time about whether or not they can afford to go. It would put a person in a terrible position if they didn't have the funds with them when they left the house and were put on the spot with no money in their wallet.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 10/25/2010 7:34:42 AM >

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 7:36:53 AM

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Of course, LP.. I agree with you.. it seems very complicated. But I always make sure that if I invite someone, in any capacity, it means I'm paying -- and if there is an argument at check time, I remind them "I invited you" ... even if its my boi...

y'all think this is complicated... try being a Femme Top Lesbian ... you shouldn't pay cause the butch should, but then, I'm the top, so I think I should pay... but then I'm a dyke.. and so all that "the man pays... " stuff goes out the window, so you can't even look to that custom...

basically, I never go out, when I'm single and hunting, without knowing I can manage the whole check if necessary...

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 8:52:07 AM

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We could start now why a guy should hold open a door for women, when yes, women are perfectly capable of opening their own door, but we still might like a guy with good manners. Just like in any shop or public place I will hold open the door for the person behind me, I simply have no time for people without manners, bad manners are such a turn off.

And as LH said, in case somebody invites me, I'm a lot more mindful about what I order than if I get the bill, in case I know that person's finances are a bit strained, I find a way of chipping in without embarrassing him or her.

However I would not be interested in wasting time with anybody who thinks because "It's 2010" is a good excuse to neglect manners. In case I couldn't afford to buy somebody a cup of coffee, I wouldn't invite somebody for a cup of coffee, in fact, if my finances would be so dire, I would concentrate on getting a job, any job!

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 10:43:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
You may not realize this, but what you've written is offensive to those who must carefully manage these concerns and who may well not be able to "pick up the tab at a restaurant" yet are kind and chivalrous in ways well beyond what money can buy.

You are taking umbrage instead of getting the point. She is not going to care if you can't take her to a five star restaurant. Go to the grocery store, get some nummy food, and take her on a picnic. Take her to the $5/plate Chinese restaurant, and also surprise her with a gift of a CD of some music you think she would like. $10 for dinner plus $15 for the CD is $25.

Good conversation plus cheap eats is worth far more than crappy conversation plus highfalutin eats. And, if you're arguing over the bill, she'll remember the bitterness of that conversation far longer than she will how good the food tasted.

A decent woman won't care if you can't take her to a 5 star restaurant; I think she may, however, be a little annoyed if you say yes, then send all sorts of non verbal messages hoping she gets the "hint" you can't afford it rather than coming right out and being honest. Or, doing the homework ahead of time to avoid both people the discomfort.

Akasha

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 10:47:20 AM

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I think we need a new thread for this, it's a great topic.

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 11:00:46 AM

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Please understand that I'm not saying that to be condescending. It just comes across to Me as being so damn complicated. Isn't the point of the date to go out, have fun, and get to know the person better?

It can be, LP, I think, if people miss a couple of essential points. The first is the difference between manners and etiquette. As I read it once (in a book entitled 'Manners and Etiquette', believe it or not), 'etiquette is knowing which pieces of cutlery to use for which particular dish; manners are about knowing not to say anything if someone gets it wrong'.

Secondly, the main aim on a date is for the man to demonstrate that he's 'gentlemanly' and the woman to show that she's 'ladylike'. For some odd reason, I've rarely seen the subject of 'what is ladylike' discussed here, on anywhere else. As for 'gentlemanly' - well, I was never taught a set of 'rules' about what constitutes such behaviour but, if I had, such rules would have missed the point. This is because they'd have been about etiquette rather than manners, per the aforementioned distinction. A universal set of rules can't be relied upon anymore.

So, I worked out my own idea of what 'gentlemanly' meant, on the basis of a broad-based idea of what 'gentle' means. Roughly - being attentive, thoughtful, considerate - thinking about how a series of small things might be different - harder, more awkward - for women. I do believe men have to do that, these days, in order to cope with it all.

What women have to do in order to be 'ladylike', I suspect, involves many similar things, but also quite a few things that are different. The tightrope they have to walk isn't identical to that of men.

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 12:09:40 PM

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I really have no idea how I formulated the Rules I Live By. Books? Home, obviously. I knew how to do the formal place setting before I learned it in school, so who KNOWS about that. I can't honestly say that knowing the difference between the shrimp fork and the lemon fork has served me all that well... I come from Italian farmers, so it's not like we were doing that stuff on the home front!

I love the Miss Manners column (big surprise) and it remains popular still because folks are just not SURE what to do in oddball situations, or even normal ones. If that wasn't relevant, she wouldn't be nationally syndicated, right? And thanks, Peon, for differentiating manners from etiquette---though I am probably too well versed in both! The whole point of manners---the knowing when NOT to speak---is keeping society lubricated, so we don't kill each other. Truly, no one cares if you use your salad fork to eat your entree, especially if you are at a place that just gives you two identical forks. Why mention it?

This brings me to the issue of COURTESY. Amazingly, it's not a cross cultural thing, either. While in Rome, I gave up my seat on the bus to an elderly person. My cousin looked surprised, then said something about "for saint sylvester" and understood. (I didn't, but whatever). In my world, we were taught to respect the elders, hold doors, carry packages, all that rubbish.

When did that go out of fashion? I remember courtesy being a gender-free thing, too, offered to everyone. Kind of like "hospitality", an idea that is obviously disintegrating!

I sound all ranty, so I think I will stop here. I am glad that I don't date. It must be hideous!

How IS it that my 25 yr old friend walked me to my car without even thinking twice, while the 47 yr old couldn't be bothered?

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 12:16:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I really have no idea how I formulated the Rules I Live By. Books? Home, obviously. I knew how to do the formal place setting before I learned it in school, so who KNOWS about that. I can't honestly say that knowing the difference between the shrimp fork and the lemon fork has served me all that well... I come from Italian farmers, so it's not like we were doing that stuff on the home front!

I love the Miss Manners column (big surprise) and it remains popular still because folks are just not SURE what to do in oddball situations, or even normal ones. If that wasn't relevant, she wouldn't be nationally syndicated, right? And thanks, Peon, for differentiating manners from etiquette---though I am probably too well versed in both! The whole point of manners---the knowing when NOT to speak---is keeping society lubricated, so we don't kill each other. Truly, no one cares if you use your salad fork to eat your entree, especially if you are at a place that just gives you two identical forks. Why mention it?

This brings me to the issue of COURTESY. Amazingly, it's not a cross cultural thing, either. While in Rome, I gave up my seat on the bus to an elderly person. My cousin looked surprised, then said something about "for saint sylvester" and understood. (I didn't, but whatever). In my world, we were taught to respect the elders, hold doors, carry packages, all that rubbish. When did that go out of fashion? I remember courtesy being a gender-free thing, too, offered to everyone. Kind of like "hospitality", an idea that is obviously disintegrating!

I sound all ranty, so I think I will stop here. I am glad that I don't date. It must be hideous!

How IS it that my 25 yr old friend walked me to my car without even thinking twice, while the 47 yr old couldn't be bothered?

This -- and, also, how about being intuitive, "in tune" and reading cues from the women you are courting? I have to be engaged in a variety of social/professional situations with people of all levels and backgrounds, and I'm constantly working my internal brain to figure out how I can engage them, facilitate comfort and communicate with them in a manner that's receptive. It's not brain surgery; but it requires that I think about them, not me, when I try to make things positive for both of us. Where did I learn about the importance of all this? I'm guessing high school? In the hit-or-miss dating games, learning to flirt, learning to read body language and cues.

Beyond things like reading about etiquette or dating or whatever, men can (should) be learning by observing and hearing what works for their male peer and role models. Who are these role models? When I hear about the sorry excuses some sub men bring to the table in the form of "courting" or "first dates" I am surprised. Or, is it that sub men, in their fantasy, think that "freedom from courting" is part of being submissive -- and that includes BOTH being the pursuer, or alternatively being very engaging "prey"? You have to be one or the other. you don't get to skate free because you gave yourself a sub label.

Kinky guys have to bring their A-game to dating, just as joe vanilla guy, if not more. For submissive men, being submissive and dating a dominant woman (in the early stages) doesn't mean freedom from the rituals of courtship at its most common and basic level.

Akasha

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 12:19:41 PM

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I really think that the bulk of them forget we are WOMEN, and are responding to our role, or what they THINK our role should be. So, they respond to their own fantasy, and go down that fantasy-pleasure path, and forget that even those who are 24/7 have OTHER activities in their lives.

I said on another thread, it's the over 30 crowd that really seems out of touch with the whole process. If you've managed at least one marriage, if not one relationship, what happened to those skills?

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 12:33:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

This brings me to the issue of COURTESY. Amazingly, it's not a cross cultural thing, either. While in Rome, I gave up my seat on the bus to an elderly person. My cousin looked surprised, then said something about "for saint sylvester" and understood. (I didn't, but whatever). In my world, we were taught to respect the elders, hold doors, carry packages, all that rubbish. When did that go out of fashion? I remember courtesy being a gender-free thing, too, offered to everyone. Kind of like "hospitality", an idea that is obviously disintegrating!

I sound all ranty, so I think I will stop here. I am glad that I don't date. It must be hideous!

How IS it that my 25 yr old friend walked me to my car without even thinking twice, while the 47 yr old couldn't be bothered?

I don't know about that, but being half Italian, I would get a clip on the ear if in public transportation I wouldn't get up to offer my seat to an elderly person or a pregnant lady. It seems to go across all cultures but it is also something that is sadly disintegrating in most cultures.

There are manners and a lot of the manners are just courtesy, and there are formal manners and it isn't about which fork to use... I recall having guests (friends of friends, I put them up because I had the space) and took them out to a nice restaurant, it's one thing not being able to know the shrimp fork from the salad fork (though working your way from the outside to the inside with cutlery is fairly easy and doesn't require a finishing school) but it's another thing to eat with your fingers, masticate with an open mouth and talk with a full mouth. For the rest of their stay I only frequented places where they didn't know me (i.e the places I would usually avoid) and still felt pretty embarrassed...

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 12:39:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
How IS it that my 25 yr old friend walked me to my car without even thinking twice, while the 47 yr old couldn't be bothered?

This reminded Me of someone that I know from before I moved. (Yes, he has a profile on this site.) Middle-aged guy, average looks, average income. Switch, with mostly sub tendencies. Where he really excelled was at his charm and him being a gentleman. We used to kid him about the names of his regular dates being named Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday because he never lacked female company. The man never failed at old fashioned manners. If he thought for even a second that there was something he could do that you might need, it was offered in no time flat. It didn't matter if it was opening a door or any other thing.

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 12:55:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
I said on another thread, it's the over 30 crowd that really seems out of touch with the whole process. If you've managed at least one marriage, if not one relationship, what happened to those skills?

Thinking about that now, Lady Hib, you could be right - the much younger women I've come across have been a lot better mannered than many of the older ones. Interesting point.

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 1:35:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
I said on another thread, it's the over 30 crowd that really seems out of touch with the whole process. If you've managed at least one marriage, if not one relationship, what happened to those skills?

Thinking about that now, Lady Hib, you could be right - the much younger women I've come across have been a lot better mannered than many of the older ones. Interesting point.

Just because I want to slap you on occasion doesn't mean I don't have manners ;)

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 2:16:48 PM

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Akasha,

quote:

A decent woman won't care if you can't take her to a 5 star restaurant; I think she may, however, be a little annoyed if you say yes, then send all sorts of non verbal messages hoping she gets the "hint" you can't afford it rather than coming right out and being honest. Or, doing the homework ahead of time to avoid both people the discomfort.

We're in agreement. And, I'll add, with the same thinking in mind... a decent woman does her own research and if she makes a mistake (or is part of a mutual mistake), offers to help with the solution instead of letting her partner take the full burden. I'd actually prefer to remove gender identifiers and just use the word "person". That's really what I'm getting at. These are person-centric attributes and behaviour, not gender-centric.

Given the dating situation I described (where two people ended up at a restaurant neither could afford), I think an excellent solution would have been for either to say "hey, this place is more than I expected; can we go someplace else" and the other to smile and reply "that's a great idea; let's go".

Elan.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 2:36:59 PM

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Akasha,

quote:

I have to be engaged in a variety of social/professional situations with people of all levels and backgrounds, and I'm constantly working my internal brain to figure out how I can engage them, facilitate comfort and communicate with them in a manner that's receptive. It's not brain surgery; but it requires that I think about them, not me, when I try to make things positive for both of us. (snip) Kinky guys have to bring their A-game to dating, just as joe vanilla guy, if not more. For submissive men, being submissive and dating a dominant woman (in the early stages) doesn't mean freedom from the rituals of courtship at its most common and basic level.

Just caught this. What you've written (above) describes aspects of my own feelings and approach when socializing, entertaining, and courting.

quote:

When I hear about the sorry excuses some sub men bring to the table in the form of "courting" or "first dates" I am surprised. Or, is it that sub men, in their fantasy, think that "freedom from courting" is part of being submissive -- and that includes BOTH being the pursuer, or alternatively being very engaging "prey"? You have to be one or the other. You don't get to skate free because you gave yourself a sub label.

The last sentence resonates with me. However, the rest of this is dangerously close to typecasting submissive men in a way that seems biased and inaccurate. Every person has dating horror stories to tell, but I think it's important not to project these onto others and/or onto an entire demographic. I could share a shocking story, or two, or three, or four, or five, or... (I think you get the idea) about the treatment I've received from various, dominant women. The point is, I know some lovely dominant women who I'm very privileged to have as friends (and in some cases who have been my partners). The experiences that happen along the way... these are the ups and downs of life.

Elan.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 10/25/2010 2:38:05 PM >

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 2:48:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Just because I want to slap you on occasion doesn't mean I don't have manners ;)

Heh. But wouldn't that be giving me a reward for my own bad manners?

Seriously, if younger people have what looks like better manners, I wouldn't mind betting it's because they're less hung-up about the whole subject. In a sense, I think it's important not to think too much about it (during the date itself, anyway) because to be well-mannered one needs to be 'intuitive', as Akasha puts it, or 'sensitive' as I'd put it.

I think Elan's also right to want to take some of the gender-specificity out of all of this. In truth, 'gentlemen' and 'ladies' share most of the same qualities, as far as I can see. However, beyond that, I think it's a question of trying to see the world through the eyes, and from the life-experience, of the opposite sex. For instance, as a 'callow youth' it never occurred to me to escort a woman home. I'd never been nervous at nights, so it had never crossed my mind that a woman would.

Another thought about re my little hypothesis that women will feel themselves to be 'undervalued' - made to feel 'cheap' - if they're not paid for by their date: they can't say this, can they? They can't say it because that could look (and even feel) greedy - and greediness is not a ladylike trait. Hence perhaps the boiling in silence, and at least some of the explosions on threads like this.

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 3:01:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I don't know about that, but being half Italian, I would get a clip on the ear if in public transportation I wouldn't get up to offer my seat to an elderly person or a pregnant lady. It seems to go across all cultures but it is also something that is sadly disintegrating in most cultures.

Manners based on courtesy and consideration for others go a long way. I will readily give up my seat for someone who looks like they need it more than I do, or offer to carry heavy bags for someone who might hurt or strain themselves doing it. Good manners to me is about considering the needs and comfort of others rather than just myself.

quote:

There are manners and a lot of the manners are just courtesy, and there are formal manners and it isn't about which fork to use... I recall having guests (friends of friends, I put them up because I had the space) and took them out to a nice restaurant, it's one thing not being able to know the shrimp fork from the salad fork (though working your way from the outside to the inside with cutlery is fairly easy and doesn't require a finishing school) but it's another thing to eat with your fingers, masticate with an open mouth and talk with a full mouth.

Here's where we diverge. While I can carefully fake the artificial monkey dances that people are trained to do in public, arbitrarily deciding that such and such food must only be touched with such and such utensils, I think they are all a load of steaming horse manure. I will not do monkey dances in my own house, and anyone who doesn't like it is welcome to the door.

The ancient Hawaiians had a long list of ritual tabus about food and footwear; some parts of your body were never supposed to touch the ground, or to touch certain kinds of food. When you read about it, it all looks pretty damn silly to the modern mind. American rituals are equally silly, and they have no greater social or practical value than any other set of primitive tabus and rituals. There is no practical reason for many of them, other than conforming to the monkey-mind that insists on everyone giving off the same social signals at the same time.

I do recognize that it upsets people if I don't do the correct monkey dance moves, so out of consideration for their emotional state and a lack of desire to be screamed at or have metaphorical poo flung at me, I mimic them in appropriate public situations. But I find it difficult to retain a high level of respect for people whose psyches are so firmly based in the monkey mind that they are unable to separate rational customs of practical value to society from irrational and arbitrary ones, and who become upset if other people don't do their monkey dances correctly.

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 3:04:31 PM

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Peon,

quote:

Hence perhaps the boiling in silence, and at least some of the explosions on threads like this.

There's the "forum effect" too. I've yet to see a thread on religion, separation, divorce, abortion, professional domination, financial domination, and a variety of other, touchy subjects not blow up. Anyone who enters such a thread is subject to the storm-cloud and explosions that usually ensue. This thread started with professional domination and, by midpoint, dissolved into a debate regarding dating etiquette and "which gender should pay on a date". Actually, any topic with "should" in it tends to be highly volatile, even without the aforementioned touchy subjects. :-)

E.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 10/25/2010 3:12:58 PM >

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RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? - 10/25/2010 3:09:45 PM

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It's interesting how it's only ill mannered when the man doesn't pay up

(in reply to ElanSubdued)

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