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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/19/2010 4:59:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Rule of Thumb-First dates are almost always coffee.
This after a nightmare (`nilla)date years ago-before the appetizer hit the table I knew it had been a mistake to ask her out (Big eyes, a hardbody and a southern accent have occasionally possessed the ability to strip my senses from me). Blahblahblahblahblah. She just didn't just up talking about stupid vapid shit.By the time entrees arrived I was seriously (well, figuratively) debating impaling her hand with the fork when she reached for the bread, pinning her to the table long enough for me to grab a jacket, flip the maitre`d some cash, and head out the door before she got free.
Oh God, that one was a disaster.
Gone the second politeness allowed it.

Coffee works. Low key, no pressure, both parties have the option of politely ducking out within 15 minutes

Coffee is the honorable way of doing things. I've heard innumerable accounts over the years from submissive women (In fact, I've lost track of the number of times someone has related this occurence to me) about dominants who arrange a "first-encounter" dinner with them and who then make a restroom excuse after 10-15 minutes into the event and duck out the back. The worst story, in this regard, came from a formidibly intelligent woman. She didn't have a lot of emotional wisdom/perception, and so I exepect that many of the superficial and not-really-that-dominant men she was drawn to were completely intimidated by her brilliance. She went to a dinner meet with one dom. A few minutes into it, he told her some lie (smoking, had to take a call, restroom) and abandoned her at the table. Some weeks later she had a second date with a second dominant. She told the second dominant about her experience with the first dominant. Five minutes later...he did the same thing. :(

< Message edited by CaringandReal -- 11/19/2010 5:00:25 AM >

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"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/19/2010 5:11:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I guess with us, we had been talking awhile before we met, and dinner was just an extension of that...

I think this is key if you're looking for a long-term bdsm or power-exchange relationship. It's a excellent strategy but when you are single you need to understand and even expect that it won't always work. Sometimes there's just something about a person's physical presence (perhaps his vocal tones remind you of a hated uncle's) that all the good rapport established online or over the phone cannot overcome. The good thing, of course, is that for long-term situations, it only has to work once. :)

< Message edited by CaringandReal -- 11/19/2010 5:12:37 AM >

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/19/2010 5:53:53 AM

Kana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Rule of Thumb-First dates are almost always coffee.
This after a nightmare (`nilla)date years ago-before the appetizer hit the table I knew it had been a mistake to ask her out (Big eyes, a hardbody and a southern accent have occasionally possessed the ability to strip my senses from me). Blahblahblahblahblah. She just didn't just up talking about stupid vapid shit.By the time entrees arrived I was seriously (well, figuratively) debating impaling her hand with the fork when she reached for the bread, pinning her to the table long enough for me to grab a jacket, flip the maitre`d some cash, and head out the door before she got free.
Oh God, that one was a disaster.
Gone the second politeness allowed it.

Coffee works. Low key, no pressure, both parties have the option of politely ducking out within 15 minutes

Coffee is the honorable way of doing things. I've heard innumerable accounts over the years from submissive women (In fact, I've lost track of the number of times someone has related this occurence to me) about dominants who arrange a "first-encounter" dinner with them and who then make a restroom excuse after 10-15 minutes into the event and duck out the back. The worst story, in this regard, came from a formidibly intelligent woman. She didn't have a lot of emotional wisdom/perception, and so I exepect that many of the superficial and not-really-that-dominant men she was drawn to were completely intimidated by her brilliance. She went to a dinner meet with one dom. A few minutes into it, he told her some lie (smoking, had to take a call, restroom) and abandoned her at the table. Some weeks later she had a second date with a second dominant. She told the second dominant about her experience with the first dominant. Five minutes later...he did the same thing. :(

Not to tangent again, but two comments.

1-That sucks. How rude...and how awful a feeling it has to be sitting there with an empty setting, waiter staring, wondering WTF just happened. To have it happen back to back is a knife in the chest. Damn, now my heart hurts for her. I hope your friend realized that the reactions said noting at all about her, but revealed volumes about her potential would-be doms.
2-That said, on the flip side, at least she jettisoned the losers right out of the gate. I am not one for issuing sweeping generalizations and saying one way is"dominant" and one way is not...but, ya know what, I would say that, at a base freaking minimum, every dominant should at least be able to account for their actions and face troubling issues straight on, not slip out the back-door like a shamed jackal.
I mean seriously, if you can't at least summon the strength, or at least, the maturity, to say something along the lines of, "Hey, you're a nice person, but not what I am looking for for X,Y,Z reason, nothing personal," then how the hell are you supposed to dominate their hearts and minds?

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/19/2010 6:42:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I guess with us, we had been talking awhile before we met, and dinner was just an extension of that...

I think this is key if you're looking for a long-term bdsm or power-exchange relationship. It's a excellent strategy but when you are single you need to understand and even expect that it won't always work. Sometimes there's just something about a person's physical presence (perhaps his vocal tones remind you of a hated uncle's) that all the good rapport established online or over the phone cannot overcome. The good thing, of course, is that for long-term situations, it only has to work once. :)

I agree. I was single once. That's how I met him

. I was simply refuting the statement that a dinner date = failure.

If there's no chemistry there, it's not going to be there whether you're at dinner or anywhere else.

As for the OP (to try to keep this on subject), I was there once, but he didn't stop at groping. He stopped after pulling himself out of me, despite my pounding his chest with my fists and telling him to get off. I blamed myself for it, for putting myself in that situation. It was only after a friend said "Honey, that was rape" that I started opening my eyes to what really happened. So I'm glad people are telling the OP not only should she be aware of where she places herself, but it is NOT ok to be pushed sexually, just because he says he's a dominant. If he doesn't own you, the choices of what to do are still yours.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/19/2010 5:28:14 PM

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fascinating thread, really enjoyed reading it. in lots of ways its opened my thinking up a little too.

part of my boredom with all of this right now is that i dont believe there is a single Dom out there that could predate my ass and thats left me thinking why and is that part of my hubris here. the predictability of that guys manoevre was clear for all to see. and i agree that the OP placed herself in the position of prey, but with many men, Dom or not, many would have given it a go since the green light was already on after she agreed to go further on into the night with him. the sentance 'lets see how sub you are' would have pissed me off - not the fact that he made the manoevre, if id put myself in that position it was because id know before hand that was what was going to happen and it was naivity on the OPs part that she thought entering his house after all of that preamble wasnt actually an invitation to play.

frankly its the transparency of it all i find so tedious.

in the end it was a transparent ploy to play. nothing predatory about it, not uncooth either. just two adults playing adult games and the only thing that went wrong so far as i can see is that they both misjudged each other.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/19/2010 10:41:38 PM

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While I get what you're trying to present with such an analogy, predator/prey is only healthy within a context of TWO DIFFERENT SPECIES

Sure, thats one angle. But you could look at if from a lot of perspectives. From the differnces between individals and countries, even different ideas and concepts. There are natural forces that underline all we do and why, they are the substrate that we have merely written our ideas across.

Anyway, you asked for it.

G.W.F. Hegel, Phenomenology of Spirit, (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1977)

The Conflict of Self-Consciousness in Self-opposition

Φ 187. The presentation of itself, however, as pure abstraction of self-consciousness consists in showing itself as a pure negation of its objective form, or in showing that it is fettered to no determinate existence, that it is not bound at all by the particularity everywhere characteristic of existence as such, and is not tied up with life. The process of bringing all this out involves a twofold action — action on the part of the other and action on the part of itself. In so far as it is the other’s action, each aims at the destruction and death of the other. But in this there is implicated also the second kind of action, self-activity; for the former implies that it risks its own life. The relation of both self-consciousnesses is in this way so constituted that they prove themselves and each other through a life-and-death struggle. They must enter into this struggle, for they must bring their certainty of themselves, the certainty of being for themselves, to the level of objective truth, and make this a fact both in the case of the other and in their own case as well. And it is solely by risking life that freedom is obtained; only thus is it tried and proved that the essential nature of self-consciousness is not bare existence, is not the merely immediate form in which it at first makes its appearance, is not its mere absorption in the expanse of life. Rather it is thereby guaranteed that there is nothing present but what might be taken as a vanishing moment — that self-consciousness is merely pure self-existence, being-for-self. The individual, who has not staked his life, may, no doubt, be recognized as a Person; but he has not attained the truth of this recognition as an independent self-consciousness. In the same way each must aim at the death of the other, as it risks its own life thereby; for that other is to it of no more worth than itself; the other’s reality is presented to the former as an external other, as outside itself; it must cancel that externality. The other is a purely existent consciousness and entangled in manifold ways; it must view its otherness as pure existence for itself or as absolute negation.

Φ 188. This trial by death, however, cancels both the truth which was to result from it, and therewith the certainty of self altogether. For just as life is the natural “position” of consciousness, independence without absolute negativity, so death is the natural “negation” of consciousness, negation without independence, which thus remains without the requisite significance of actual recognition. Through death, doubtless, there has arisen the certainty that both did stake their life, and held it lightly both in their own case and in the case of the other; but that is not for those who underwent this struggle. They cancel their consciousness which had its place in this alien element of natural existence; in other words, they cancel themselves and are sublated as terms or extremes seeking to have existence on their own account. But along with this there vanishes from the play of change the essential moment, viz. that of breaking up into extremes with opposite characteristics; and the middle term collapses into a lifeless unity which is broken up into lifeless extremes, merely existent and not opposed. And the two do not mutually give and receive one another back from each other through consciousness; they let one another go quite indifferently, like things. Their act is abstract negation, not the negation characteristic of consciousness, which cancels in such a way that it preserves and maintains what is sublated, and thereby survives its being sublated.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/19/2010 11:34:19 PM

WolfyMontgomery

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Why can't people from oxford use plain, *normal* English and not try to impress other "oxfordites" with their literary skill, which has nothing to do with the subject at hand?

I read that like three times and I didn't get a whit of what the author was saying beyond "I'm a pompous ass and I want to show I'm more intelligent than you, so I'm going to say the same sentence 30 times with different fancy big words."

Can someone translate that to less-intelligent human speak?

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/19/2010 11:44:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

Can someone translate that to less-intelligent human speak?

Without all the pompous superfluous crap:

187. Two people have different agendas and as such, they cannot both win. Hegel then states that this is so deadly serious that it is a life or death struggle.

188 (to the best of my abilities). Somehow, the struggle is not fulfilling. Hegel offers nothing in support, evidently feeling that nobody will figure out his bullshit anyway.

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"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/19/2010 11:49:03 PM

WolfyMontgomery

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Thank you...

I'm sure very few people DO figure out his bullshit, which is why he's in Oxford spouting out this bullshit. ;D

Which... in some ways it's true, but it's most definitely *not* a life or death struggle (unless you count like... those Roman arenas, now THOSE were life or death struggles!).

I'd say you should go to Oxford, since you're obviously intelligent enough to get the crap they're spouting... but they prolly wouldn't like you since you don't try to confuse people with pompous assy language.

_____________________________

~Eleven

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Fear me and my Gleaming Metal Chompers of DOOM!
..........that means my braces. >_>

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/19/2010 11:59:11 PM

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I once tried to translate a Marshall McLuhan book into English from the pomposity it was written with. It took me half an hour to translate a paragraph, and when translated it was so stupidly obvious that if he had written plainly, nobody would have thought he had anything at all.

Engineers are trained to communicate clearly and concisely, with no excess verbiage. I hate when someone uses a runaway vocabulary to impede communication so they think they're smart.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to WolfyMontgomery)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/20/2010 12:08:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I once tried to translate a Marshall McLuhan book into English from the pomposity it was written with. It took me half an hour to translate a paragraph, and when translated it was so stupidly obvious that if he had written plainly, nobody would have thought he had anything at all.

Engineers are trained to communicate clearly and concisely, with no excess verbiage. I hate when someone uses a runaway vocabulary to impede communication so they think they're smart.

Go Steven!

pam

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/20/2010 12:21:13 AM

Toppingfrmbottom

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Uh those questionsARE invasive, even if iwas a guy , I would never EVER tell people I am just getting to know info like that. It's none of their business people will not be getting the information you're proposing a male should be willing to give, were I a male till I had known them in real life quiet a while..

quote:

ORIGINAL: fellowtraveler

Make sure the guy has given you verifiable information about himself... where he lives, where he works, what he does, what his family is like, stuff like that. If he feels that by asking such questions you are being too intrusive, then he has given himself away as a poser. After all, if he is serious, then he WANTS you to know about him.

Next, keep in mind that real dominant men tend to be very protective of their submissives. They WANT her to feel safe. He will plan the first date around that premise. He will likely NOT try to engage your kinkier side on a first meeting... rather he will cautiously try to figure out if you are the real deal or some nutjob. He will also know that you are trying to figure out the same in him. If he is dominant... truly dominant, he will likely try to fix that first meeting in a place where he will seem to own the universe and everything in it; a restaurant where people know and like him, the race track if he spends a lot of time there, possibly a sports arena if he frequents it. In other words, he will pick a place that will create the right atmosphere for you to come away feeling he is something special.

Inviting you to ride alone in his car is a sign that he is ignorant... he should know that it will not empower you to feel comfortable in his presence. Asking you to go to his house is proof positive that he was an idiot. Don't be afraid to say no... ever. A real dom will understand, particularly on a first meeting. scratch that... a real dom wouldn't ask or suggest such a thing. Don't be afraid of pissing men off... until you are committed to him, he has NO rights to you whatsoecer. Oh, and something young ladies just don't seem to understand anymore.... when a guy buys you dinner or lunch or pays your way to an event.... you owe him polite table manners and interesting conversation, thats all.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/20/2010 12:55:51 AM

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quote:

Uh those questionsARE invasive, even if iwas a guy , I would never EVER tell people I am just getting to know info like that. It's none of their business people will not be getting the information you're proposing a male should be willing to give, were I a male till I had known them in real life quiet a while..

Seriously. I don't think anyone would recommend to a woman that she give a virtual stranger her home address and work information.

Honestly, for first dates, just go get coffee or something. It's really not that complicated. I don't want a potential stalker/crazy person to know where I live in case I never want to see him again.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/20/2010 2:08:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: clitwhipscream

While I get what you're trying to present with such an analogy, predator/prey is only healthy within a context of TWO DIFFERENT SPECIES

Sure, thats one angle. But you could look at if from a lot of perspectives. From the differnces between individals and countries, even different ideas and concepts. There are natural forces that underline all we do and why, they are the substrate that we have merely written our ideas across.

I prefer the relevant angle - that human predatory behaviour in civilised society generally ends badly for women, children and the weak/defenseless.

Focus.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/20/2010 5:02:06 AM

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Hegel isn't the be all and end all in philosophy. Another philosophy major could find writings from others that contradict him.
Since I never did study philosophy I'm not going to bother. And it's way too early to hassle my kidlet who is a psych major and philosophy minor for something as obvious as other people saying other things.

The saddest thing that's come out of this discussion are the people who simply don't recognize that they are pompous and posturing. Very sad indeed. Shit, I can do pompous with the best of them, but I recognize it and do it deliberately. The fact that there are so many people who can't recognize it just makes my heart break for them. Because you don't do that unless you're covering up for a lot of powerlessness in the early years. Meaning abuse by those who should have protected you.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/20/2010 6:57:02 AM

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There is a Wikepedia article on it, search for Master-slave, and you dont want the one in BDSM context. This is real social theory, (the guy was a huge influence on Marx). I find it profound, but no it is never easy to read. You have to re read it, ponder it, in other words. Think.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/20/2010 8:33:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lairaimmortelle

I've had an encounter with an individual, a Dom. Met on here, chatted quite a bit, and met up for the first time last night. All fine and dandy. We discussed a few more things over coffee and bingets (SP?) I was asked if I wanted to go for a ride elsewhere in the city to his favorite bar, no problem, a few drinks would be nice. Oh wait he forgot something at his house, "it will take me just a moment, please step inside" Again, no problem, not until he came up behind me, "Lets see how good of a sub you are..." as he reached down my shirt. I chicken winged that SOB and left.

Now that I've shared that I ask this: What is ok for a first date? Maybe I over reacted, but last I checked, at least for myself, true submission is gained through trust, trust is build off of respect, and for either of those you have to get to know one another. Am I wrong in this ideal? I mean he's the third one to try and pull some shit like that. I'm done.

That was totally not acceptable! Safe calls, mace etc. That man was a jackass preditor, and I for one am very sorry for your experience. Thank God your ok. That could have gone waaaay south. NO means NO! I would suggest no more "drinks" afterwards, if you ever decide to go out with guys into the lifestyle again. Wishing you the best of luck
Sincerely, Master's star

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/20/2010 11:39:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

part of my boredom with all of this right now is that i dont believe there is a single Dom out there that could predate my ass and thats left me thinking why and is that part of my hubris here.
frankly its the transparency of it all i find so tedious.

Great use of the word "transparency," Lally. Lately, it's come to mean something akin to honesty or honest intentions. But in this situation (seduction), transparency, she eez not zoh hot. :/

I don't think what you are describing is hubris, I see it as simple lack of opportunity. And, as I think I mentioned once before, time will change that. I avoid transparent people, too. I see through them in initial encounters and then go my own way.

I guess I have been blessed (if you can call unrequited lust a blessing--well Ok, I do actually call it that at times--when I am not tearing my hair out by the roots) to have had a good number of unusually charismatic friends in my life. I have no idea what these shining stars see in a shy, retiring dullard like myself. Perhaps an appreciative audience? At very least, zero competition! :o This experience, as frustrating as it's been at times, allows me to say with certainty that there are people out there who aren't nearly so transparent, people who are incomparably subtle compared to what most others are like, people who wear an air of mystery like a cloak, charm everyone they meet, and play (think of a cat toying with a mouse here) with the few they find "fun." People, who, due to the quality of their intellects and personalities can only be described as extraordinary. I'm talking mostly about dominants--because, having a submissive personality, that is who I tend to attract or interact with. But I think such unusual people also come in submissive and non-bdsm forms, as well. You don't need to be their equal to attract such a person. I am living proof of that, lol. Actually, I've know enough of these people that I've sometimes put them in contact with one other, thinking that two great minds would take solace in each other. The result? Once, I saw two of them hit it off. But more often than not, my matchmaking theories were proved wrong.

So how do you meet them? I don't believe there's a strategy, I just think you bump into such types, if you want this badly enough and are willing to wait expectantly for it without getting too impatient. Need does seem to help to create such encounters. Over this years, I've seen this pattern repeat too many times to think it's coincidence. It's also a matter of time. Such people are not common, so you may have to wait. Keep your eyes (and your mind) as open as you can. They often do not come in an expected or even (initially) desired package. The packages can be quite surprising, in fact. Don't expect them to come to you. Petitioners visit Kings and Queens, not the other way around. And--this part is important--keep your longing at a fever-pitch. Don't give in to the happy path of cynicism, however more superficially content it makes you. The idea that nothing ever changes for the better or becomes more interesting is a total crock--although it can become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Mystery is out there, always, lurking nearby. Perhaps (trying desperately to veer back on topic here) it would be "couth" of you to attract its eye? I think you do a good job of that already, actually, all you need to do is remain steady as you are, not lose faith, but perhaps, increase your need. Over the ages, the wise have said "a man's beliefs become his fate." Make your beliefs big, extraordinary, childlike in their fantastic span, even, and while what you specifically imagine probably won't walk by your door, something really unusual might and in that open frame of mind, you will be ripe to see it, rather than dismiss it with the jaded misunderstanding of, "Oh, I bet he's just a...(fill in the expected commonplace)." And when you encounter such a person, pretend that you are in a fairytale and act archetypically--what can it hurt but your ego, which only gets in the way of what you want? Literally or metaphorically, chase them down, grab a fold of their clothing, fall to your knees, and kiss it, as if it were the blessed robe of Khidr. And then wait and see what happens next. Do not expect a transaction (kissed robe must=attention for me), just wait and see. And if nothing comes of it, don't let that deter you from trying again. I sincerely feel this is the best way to approach things if you want the things you say you want.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to lally2)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/20/2010 4:18:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

[Not to tangent again, but two comments.

1-That sucks. How rude...and how awful a feeling it has to be sitting there with an empty setting, waiter staring, wondering WTF just happened. To have it happen back to back is a knife in the chest. Damn, now my heart hurts for her. I hope your friend realized that the reactions said noting at all about her, but revealed volumes about her potential would-be doms.
2-That said, on the flip side, at least she jettisoned the losers right out of the gate. I am not one for issuing sweeping generalizations and saying one way is"dominant" and one way is not...but, ya know what, I would say that, at a base freaking minimum, every dominant should at least be able to account for their actions and face troubling issues straight on, not slip out the back-door like a shamed jackal.
I mean seriously, if you can't at least summon the strength, or at least, the maturity, to say something along the lines of, "Hey, you're a nice person, but not what I am looking for for X,Y,Z reason, nothing personal," then how the hell are you supposed to dominate their hearts and minds?

1. yeah it did suck. I don't know what she realized from it, but I don't think it was good. This occurred many years ago. She gave up on looking for dominants shortly after that (she was a switch and publically dominant but I know she had a strong need for the other side).

2. It boggles my mind what these cowardly people were looking for in the first place. If they could abandon a dinner date just like that, how could they possibly convince themselves that despite that, they were these glorious dominant masters? Human brains are very strange places.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to Kana)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/20/2010 4:25:32 PM

Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: clitwhipscream

...

Hegel

...

Ok, that was awesome.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to clitwhipscream)

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