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RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/29/2006 8:02:07 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Vield,

I missed your post when I first read this thread.  You elegantly outline the deeper reasons I have issues with the way mentoring is most often done.  Few, VERY few, have your level of integrity and firm boundaries.  Its good to know there are people out there like you, all too few in my opinion.

(in reply to vield)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/29/2006 8:04:47 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh  thank you for clarifying that up.. I read it as you being against any form of mentoring at all..

I dont believ in holding a paw and leading certainly in any area i'm mentoring even with a new person who is scared shitless... But they will know I will be there as a safety net too.... Mostly I look at mentoring in the same way as i do as a Counselor.. I help devise a game plan which the other person is happy with and then I'm just the coach and encourager.. I figure having a shoiulder for them to cry on or beat up on is a good relief factor but they must work through most thigs on their own with me baing available if they get into the shit up to their eyeballs....... I usually encourage them to study and ask questions too..... Ultimately I want them to see thir worth and start to achieve their potential....


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/29/2006 8:05:40 PM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Cuddleheart..  I strongly suggest you find someone with your same orientation to be your mentor.. better yet.. join a group of folks who are your orientation and preferably in real time. You can try contacting the local groups in your area to see if any of them have a program of mentoring. Often if they do, they can match you up with a few people to contact for questions and feedback. If you are looking strictly for feedback, the 'ask a submissive' forum is a good place to ask questions as well and there you get a diverse cross section of opinions. You can take those to your r/t mentor and bounce the answers off them as well. Getting a consensus, while it will rarely be 100% as long as three or more humans are involved, you can get some general ideas of how the wind blows in relation to damn near anything. If there are people with whom you feel comfortable or whose advice you'd like to seek, most won't have an issue with you sending them an email on the other side to do a brain pick. They'll let you know if they have no answers, don't want to answer etc. Feel free to ask in the forums if it's ok for you to email someone as they may have preferences set that would prevent your email from getting through.

Celeste


The best suggestion yet, thank you!

_____________________________

Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.


(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/29/2006 8:11:10 PM   
Proprietrix


Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline 		It seems a lot of people are hung up on a Dominant mentoring a submissive. I view that more as training than mentoring.
When I think of mentoring, I think of a person who is wise in the ways of XYZ, offering advice and guidance to a newcomer who is learning XYZ.
From that perspective, wouldn't it make more sense for a submissive to mentor a submissive and a Dominant to mentor a Dominant?
Not that it should be completely dependent on orientation in the lifestyle... Anyone with experience & integrity (the will, character, etc..) could mentor newcomers, but for the more specifics aspects, wouldn't it make sense for a mentor to be someone who has "walked in those shoes" already? Someone who has an understanding of what questions are running through the newcomers brain, can speak to the questions that arise from that end of the whip, etc....

(I'm normally more well-spoken than this, but I'm not feeling up to par tonight, so I'm sorry if that post made no sense whatsoever.)

_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/29/2006 8:11:30 PM   
Tikkiee


Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabot762

A protector is a good idea if you want/need an escort to attend a club or party.

Well, personally, the day I need a 'protector' to go to a club or party is the day I stop going. Quite frankly, if I can not handle myself and/or anyone else without help; I sure am not going to ask another to do it for me.
 
By the way, welcome to the boards.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to Sabot762)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/29/2006 8:13:10 PM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Celeste the following link is from an old website for a B&D support group I was involved in many moons ago, which has a comprehensive look at one aspect of the mentor sub dynamic (as well as other types of d/s dynamics which may be of interest too). 

http://members.tripod.com/~nzbdsm/dom1.html  - authored by 'Silkwitch'

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


(in reply to cuddleheart50)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/29/2006 8:40:12 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix

It seems a lot of people are hung up on a Dominant mentoring a submissive. I view that more as training than mentoring.
When I think of mentoring, I think of a person who is wise in the ways of XYZ, offering advice and guidance to a newcomer who is learning XYZ.
From that perspective, wouldn't it make more sense for a submissive to mentor a submissive and a Dominant to mentor a Dominant?
Not that it should be completely dependent on orientation in the lifestyle... Anyone with experience & integrity (the will, character, etc..) could mentor newcomers, but for the more specifics aspects, wouldn't it make sense for a mentor to be someone who has "walked in those shoes" already? Someone who has an understanding of what questions are running through the newcomers brain, can speak to the questions that arise from that end of the whip, etc....

(I'm normally more well-spoken than this, but I'm not feeling up to par tonight, so I'm sorry if that post made no sense whatsoever.)


*nodding* Perhaps this is the issue that so many are having here... I know from my mate's experience and my own, both in and out of lifestyle choices, that it is important for the person who is providing mentorship to be someone that an individual can respect, and who has skills and experience that the individual feels will be valuable to his or her progress. With that in mind, it makes sense that the individual providing mentorship would be an experienced colleague... someone who shares or has shared the same path, which can also help to avoid issues of mixed goals... someone who is on the same path, but a few steps ahead, is less likely to be interested in pushing a hidden agenda. A servant who guides and mentors his or her fellow servants can provide valuable information and experiences to help someone on that path make positive choices for his or her development. In the same way, the challenges of an owner will be best explained by an individual who has actually -been- responsible for another's life.

This is the way that we use mentorship. When I guide individuals spiritually, I don't go -looking- for people to guide... I offer guidance to those who come to me and tell me that they have been working on the teachings that I am familiar with, and desire guidance to help them to understand and make good choices. When I mentor at work, I mentor those whose career path follows the track that mine has followed, because that is where I have knowledge and experience. If they decide that they need to go another direction, my greatest responsibility as a mentor is in helping them to find someone who can guide them where I can't. In the same way, in this life, when I was being mentored, it was by individuals who understood my goals, and who were experienced in methods and philosophies that I wanted to learn, but needed clarification and a measure of self-confidence in expressing. Now, when I mentor, it is for those individuals for whom my particular set of experiences and the understandings I've obtained from those experiences might actually be of value for where -they- want to go on their own path.

This is why it was so hard for me to understand why there was such a malignant attitude towards mentorship, since it has always been such an outstanding resource everywhere else I've been.

Lady Zephyr

< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 4/29/2006 8:41:27 PM >

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to Proprietrix)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/29/2006 8:50:15 PM   
Reasonable


Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline 		From my experiences in the past, LadyZephr,I can well understand why it has been demonized in this realm.

By being used as an excuse to get into each other's pants. And from either side-not just tops.  And this sort of thing is seen as dishonest and predatory-as it should be.the motivations are always going to be suspect.

On the "pure" side- with peers instructing and teaching-there is not going to be that issue. But like the "monster behind every bush" paranioa this community is so afflicted with "vis a vis "Predators"..It seems that they will focus on the negative aspect first.

I am constantly amazed at how many here wear the collar of "Master Fear"....I don't care what orientation they happen to be-it still sucks to be under his control,24/7.

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/29/2006 9:25:17 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reasonable

From my experiences in the past, LadyZephr,I can well understand why it has been demonized in this realm.

By being used as an excuse to get into each other's pants. And from either side-not just tops.  And this sort of thing is seen as dishonest and predatory-as it should be.the motivations are always going to be suspect.

On the "pure" side- with peers instructing and teaching-there is not going to be that issue. But like the "monster behind every bush" paranioa this community is so afflicted with "vis a vis "Predators"..It seems that they will focus on the negative aspect first.

I am constantly amazed at how many here wear the collar of "Master Fear"....I don't care what orientation they happen to be-it still sucks to be under his control,24/7.


Doomsayers, the opposite of the fluffNfold crowd. Both extremists who don't seem to get that most people fall somewhere in the middle and are.. um.. reasonable and realistic in their view of how the world really works. I've found that most of that ilk either want to be a Knight in Shiny Armor saving all the newbies from a fate worse than death or flat out cynical children whose panties are too tight.  As for the foldNfluffs, there is nothing wrong with idealistic fantasy, but unless you realize the toilets still need to be scrubbed on a consistent basis, you're apt to be in for a rude awakening... and if you need someone to tell you the toilet needs scrubbing, you have got bigger problems than a PretenderMentor. Maybe 10 years ago, there were a lot of wolves in mentors clothing, but with the wealth of information now available to anyone with an Internet connection, there is no excuse for laying aside your personal responsibility and blaming someone else for all your ills.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Reasonable)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/30/2006 5:39:01 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		For me personally, I have found that reading some of the writings of Others that are where I want to be have helped the most. Strong women, Dominas, with grace and humour.....they have tought me the most. I would think that another submissive that is/has been living the lifestyle you desire, sucessfully for years, would be the best person/ people to go to for advise. I agree with whomever posted to utilize the "ask a submissive" forum and read......read read read. At least that has been my best learning tool given that I have found literally zero like minded individuals in my comunity. Not that they don't exist, I have just not found them yet. I would love to travel to Chicago, St Louis, Kansas City, Minn St Paul as I am sure they have some organized gatherings I have yet to hear about......just that because of my lifestyle here (farm, livestock and rescue special needs animals) even a weekend trip is a major planning nightmare.When I do find something to attend I am going to be bloody well sure its going to be a good one!

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/30/2006 6:42:24 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		As one I guess whose "panties are too tight" I am not usually on the "fear the world" side and perhaps I have just seen and experienced too much shit on this issue or my level of integrity is just too damn high.
 
I strongly believe people should learn from others and that people, even new people, often have interesting and surprising things to teach.  I am in no way against learning from others and in fact encourage it.
 
That said, my experience with people mentoring has been horrible.  I know people who have run groups who mentored people till they divorced their husbands, or until the mentor got tired of the way they gave head, or until a younger cuter one came along.
 
I myself once bottomed as a "growth" thing to an officer in the Society of Janus.  She knew I was a dominant, played with me as if I was a genuine male sub and was pissed, hurt, etc. when I didn't get all hot and bothered and dumped a rather large guilt trip on me.  Lucky for me, at that point I knew enough to realize she was full of shit, but a few years earlier and it would really have fucked me up.
 
Male dominants are perhaps worse in this aspect but many who know they either would get called on their shit or be rejected for coming on to someone's submissive instead make that most generous of offers, to mentor someone and of course their submissive.  In a world where your attractiveness is measured by your power, you have automatically (unless you are EXTREMELY careful) undercut the power of the inexperienced dominant and established yourself as the power because you are the "teacher".   Unless the romantic bond is strong or the people are very well grounded...that relationship is headed for rocky ground.
 
In a group I was an officer in, the above was why I fought against having a "mentorship" program because the ones who most wanted to mentor were the ones I least believed should be doing it.  As Veild stated, if you have a sexual interest and would want to play with someone, refuse to mentor them and find someone else to do it. 
 
To me, the way quality mentoring should be done boils down to a few simple rules.  Strive to empower the dominant as much as possible.   If they need to learn a skill, teach them on YOUR submissive, not theirs.  Take no sexual favors from them.  Teach only someone similar to yourself, I don’t need another dominant “training” someone before they serve me, they don’t do it right.
 
By all means find people to learn from, watch people, but simply beware those walking around looking for people to mentor, especially if they are single and or play with lots of people.
 
Oh, and before someone says this is sour grapes, I have driven women away myself, but I have never lost one of mine to another.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/30/2006 10:49:40 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear CrappyDom, Cuddleheart50, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Mentoring and or Protecting in of itself is not the problem.  It is a people problem.  Just like so many have been abused by canes -- The ones that come through my class, so terrified they are ready to run, learn soon enough that the cane doesn't have to hurt. 
 
For CrappyDom, as a dominant that has mentored others successfully and without negative reports; I am sorry you have been subjected to some horrible experiences.  It is a reality that it happens but, it seems that you have been exposed to unkind treatment more than your fair share.  Although I have not been the one who was one who wronged you; since they have not apologized-- I will.   As a Dominant, as a mentor out of many--I do apologize for the harm done to you.
 
For Cuddleheart50, as you can see -- mentoring and protecting has it's flaws.  Being into the scene, if I read it correctly, about 2 years.  I do recommend watching the actions between Dominants and submissives in scenes if possible and then approach the one who inspires you the most and your "gut feeling" gives you the most sense of safety and kindness.  As books are wonderful, they are not the same as "hands on" experiences.  I will also add, that books are just that author's opinions, views and comments on the matter.
 
As I mentor, regardless if it is a novice Top or bottom; Dom or submissive and or Master/Mistress-slave;
I rarely have to lay my hands upon that student.  It is never sexual but, intellectual and passing on knowledge and skills.  It is NEVER a scene.  It is your choice to be bound or not.  All my mentored students have means to escape and safety is priority #1.
 
I am very aware, that there are abuses out there.  But, it is difficult to thwart such individuals, as it is difficult to put what I may feel abusive out, another person finds no harm and seeks such behavior.  So, it boils down to individual tastes and journey.  With an example of taking a 'cook book' you can have a recipe but, you can swap things in that recipe and make it your own.  So, it is the same with BDSM books, mentoring and or attending workshops, lectures, presentations and demonstrations.  There will be good mentors and or protectors and there will be bad mentors and or protectors.  I hope that you have wonderful mentors.
 
Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Mentor and Protector - 4/30/2006 10:55:29 AM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		LadyHugs....Thank you for the valuable information, I have been reading these posts and trying to decide what is right for me.  In the long run, I will trust my instints.  They always work for me anyway.

_____________________________

Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.


(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Mentor and Protector - 5/1/2006 4:02:58 PM   
AngelicPuzzle


Posts: 88
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		With my  mentor/protector we kinda found each other and just kept chatting casually.....as I was/am searching for a DOM he has counsled me and offered me his advice from a DOM's prospective. Its all too easy to get caught up in the search and the potential fora  new pairing so its good to bounce situations off of someone else.....they see red flags that you don't.

While I don't answer to him...I value his advice highly while acknowledging hat ultimately I'm responsible for my own hide.....he has helped me to keep my head on my shoulders and be safe.......that has become my personal defination of a Mentor/Protector.

You know who you are and I just want to say here in front of everyone Thank You for listening and being here for me <hugs>

Mystery

_____________________________

All is Well.....it Really Is! :)

(in reply to cuddleheart50)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Mentor and Protector - 5/1/2006 4:24:11 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

Mentors are a lot like censors.  The only ones you'd really want to have the job need to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into it.  Those who scramble for the position are usually the last people in the world you'd want.

Back when I entered the scene, there was a great need for mentors because of the lack of readly available information.  Now, I'd recommend you find a number of people you can respect regardless of orientation and use them as sounding board as you gather information from the multitude of sources that are now available.  There are books, classes, websites and even movies.  Use as many of them as you need.

As for a "protector," why in the world do you want one.  Are you so basically unskilled at human interaction you need someone standing between you and the world?  Frankly, I doubt that.  It's become stylish for people to claim both these titles.  You don't need to go with the styles.


Look for Friendship!....  amazingly they can the best of mentorships... and they not looking for the ego filled title either.   They can also be very protective of their friends when there is a need.  I agree with you John, many like to used titles and labels to self-inflate their egos.  One can find alot in building Friendships!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Mentor and Protector - 5/1/2006 4:33:09 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

I am very new to the lifestyle( only 2 yrs)...I would like to find someone who could mentor me as a friend.


then just find and build your friendships... amazingly you will learn something from them... it doesn't have to be formal process.... also if you build a strong friendship with a person of strong character, they will be there to support and protect you when you need it.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to cuddleheart50)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Mentor and Protector - 5/1/2006 5:40:48 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I have to say I agree with vield.

I've had the pleasant(?) experience of being with a submissive who had been mentored by a Dominant friend of hers.  He not only taught her the basics of submission (which, by the way, leads to some interesting philospophical musing...how much can a dominant know of what the submissive 'feeling' is?  But...), he taught her how to play...by playing with her.  He taught her to enjoy submissive sexual play...by acting as the dominant in sexual play.  He taught her to serve...by noting that if she could please him, then other dominants would be well satisfied.  The result?  A submissive who could quote chapter and verse of "My mentor taught me that it should be this way.  Oddly enough, that led to several heated discussions and an eventual break as I suspected...later proven right...she had fallen in love with her mentor.

A mentor should NOT be involved in BDSM play nor in sexual play with their trainee.  As noted above, I wonder about the wisdom of a submissive learning submission from a dominant or about a dominant learning dominance from a submissive.  Not saying it can't be done but when one wants to learn to fly airplanes, does one go to the police academy?  It seems to me that while submissives and dominants can learn from each other, it would be wisest to learn from a variety of "like"...if you want to learn how to dominate, read about how to dominate and talk to other dominants and observe other dominants' interactions with submissives.

MHHO, YMMV


(in reply to vield)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Mentor and Protector - 5/1/2006 5:50:07 PM   
genvieve


Posts: 228
Joined: 5/14/2005
From: SF Bay Area
Status: offline 		It is my oppinion that one's Mentor serves as a father/mother type figure to a new submissive.  And while that may be a different kink all together... i do not believe that any sexual play should be involved.  This allows for the submissive to focus less on the kink...and more on service.

_____________________________

In the quietness of myself, i find myself at the mercy of Your hand.

Musical Wishes Design

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Mentor and Protector - 5/1/2006 6:00:42 PM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		Guffaw, guffaw, guffaw. I thought I would wander from LOL.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to cuddleheart50)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Mentor and Protector - 5/1/2006 6:03:06 PM   
SweetEscravo


Posts: 193
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		I definitly agree you shouldn't just chose "one mentor" above everyone else.  Rather, isn't it better to learn from the community, those around you, your significant other, yourself?  Do not just limit yourself to one mentor...it takes a kinky community to raise a newbie...

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
Profile   Post #: 60
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