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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 1:23:17 PM   
DMFParadox


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Also, this: http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/11/1114_tuitionfree/index_01.htm

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 1:26:33 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

Also, this: http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/11/1114_tuitionfree/index_01.htm


Kind of interesting that the best hope is in America.  

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 1:32:36 PM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy


In that case we should just abolish the colleges.  They do not produce anything.



Absolutely, I mean who needs scientists, doctors, lawyers...


By virtue of tripling the fees- they are more less getting rid of it anyway.   Only those who can actually achieve science/dr/lawyer- would benefit to go there.
How does this work?  I mean will student loans be available?   If so- with what kind of strings?



It means that a large degree of people who are able to study will come from wealthy families, poorer students will have less chances. Student loans will still be available but it will take them 3 times as long to pay them back. I think right now the average student leaves university with a debt of 20 to 30K (could be wrong there, maybe somebody knows better), raising the student fees 3 times will mean they are looking for jobs with a debt of 60 to 90K (that's real money £ not $), so since they will want to earn that quickly and pay it back, it most likely will mean that their rates will go up, and even people who don't have college degrees will have to pay those rates...



Thats correct, my uni course was 3 years and the debts are just about £27k (£3k+ per year on uni fee plus £6k per year student loan). Of course if you are from outside the EU you pay a lot more already. They said in the news that now Scotland has to rethink their fees, as it seems so far they charged about £1800 for EU students (and maybe for british students, too) but now they seem to get a bit worried about a huge rise from british students going over to their uni to avoid those massive fees.

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 1:32:38 PM   
pahunkboy


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I sent that link to my niece.  She just finished an AA in Sciences and is not sure what is if a BA is in her future. 

:-)

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 1:35:04 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

Also, this: http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/11/1114_tuitionfree/index_01.htm


Kind of interesting that the best hope is in America.  



What makes you think that? The fact that a US magazine only focused on US colleges? Do tell how much you do know about other colleges (though I thought you were for abolishing them all since they don't produce people who can flip burgers) in other countries.

Off the top of my head I can name you 3 European countries where the state will pay part or all of your student loans if you graduate in the top 10% of the year nationwide. Can you name one?

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 1:44:15 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

Also, this: http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/11/1114_tuitionfree/index_01.htm


Kind of interesting that the best hope is in America.  



What makes you think that? The fact that a US magazine only focused on US colleges? Do tell how much you do know about other colleges (though I thought you were for abolishing them all since they don't produce people who can flip burgers) in other countries.

Off the top of my head I can name you 3 European countries where the state will pay part or all of your student loans if you graduate in the top 10% of the year nationwide. Can you name one?


Shouldn't you be at a riot?

Others have moved onto plan B.      Which is what will happen in real life.

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 1:52:25 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Phoenix, I'm in my mid 30's now and I'm still paying my student loan back, I took short cuts by studying a lot abroad and didn't draw out being a student and eating rice and soy sauce (kinda makes me laugh when people talk about students partying all the time, I didn't have all that much time for it), I had a few stipends but it still mounts up.

Worst thing is you are starting your credit history with a debt in your name. I don't really get it why students get charged, most people with advanced degrees earn more and so they do pay more taxes, so the state is getting the money back anyway...

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 1:54:18 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Shouldn't you be at a riot?

Others have moved onto plan B.      Which is what will happen in real life.



So in short you know sweet F all about other countries, about how colleges or universities work, and you are happy in a job where you didn't need a degree, I hope you flip a good burger...

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 2:13:15 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Shouldn't you be at a riot?

Others have moved onto plan B.      Which is what will happen in real life.



So in short you know sweet F all about other countries, about how colleges or universities work, and you are happy in a job where you didn't need a degree, I hope you flip a good burger...



I did not collapse the college system in the UK.

HA

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 2:20:30 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Shouldn't you be at a riot?

Others have moved onto plan B.      Which is what will happen in real life.



So in short you know sweet F all about other countries, about how colleges or universities work, and you are happy in a job where you didn't need a degree, I hope you flip a good burger...



I did not collapse the college system in the UK.

HA




The system has not collapsed, you just don't understand simple questions and then change the subject.

FFS, you can't even figure out how to meet anybody through an internet dating service, how could you make an education system collapse? Through brain power?

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 2:27:57 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

So in short you know sweet F all about other countries, about how colleges or universities work, and you are happy in a job where you didn't need a degree, I hope you flip a good burger...

He doesn't need to, he's on the dole.

~stef


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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 2:31:03 PM   
pahunkboy


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Lady C.  I asked you how you would solve the problem.   I asked in several posts.

Instead I get a blurb on how we must have this piece of paper.   If Universities outside the US offer free online courses- then great.   It seems to me- looking at a plan B is more productive then going to a protest.

From the link posted-  I did not see any outside the US.  Maybe there were some-- but I did not notice.

Triple the fees is not business as usual.  Not at all. It is a symptom of a broken system- one that needs to be re-worked.  If the smartest I can ever be- is to manage a college system like the one that is broken- then- I am afraid their paper is not worth anything.

The industry of the best and the brightest-  needs to be reformed-   not just in the UK- but in the US as well.  

And universities do invest in Wall Street derivatives.

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 2:39:15 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Well, it is a US magazine and it simply did not list anything outside the US, as we know for most US Americans nothing else exists...

The solution is very very simple, you change the system slightly, still with student loans but depending on the quality of your degree and not wasting time, the students don't have to pay back the full student loans, say if you are among the top 1% you don't pay anything back (because companies will beat down your door and offer you work anyway, so you will be earning lots and paying more tax, state wins), then you can grade it, say the top 5% only pay 1/3rd back, the top 5 to 10% pay half of it back, it would give students a reason to study harder, be more successful and the more successful they are the better are their chances on the job market.

It's a double win because highly qualified people tend to earn more... When was the last time you saw an MD or a lawyer just scratching by on the wages a brick layer earns? They don't only pay more taxes from their earnings, they also pay more sales taxes (VAT) as they will be able to afford more, especially if they aren't encumbered by paying back the debt the accumulated as students.

It's a fairly simple principle isn't it? Oh and maybe, just maybe freeze the wages of university lecturers a bit...

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 2:43:48 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Well, it is a US magazine and it simply did not list anything outside the US, as we know for most US Americans nothing else exists...

The solution is very very simple, you change the system slightly, still with student loans but depending on the quality of your degree and not wasting time, the students don't have to pay back the full student loans, say if you are among the top 1% you don't pay anything back (because companies will beat down your door and offer you work anyway, so you will be earning lots and paying more tax, state wins), then you can grade it, say the top 5% only pay 1/3rd back, the top 5 to 10% pay half of it back, it would give students a reason to study harder, be more successful and the more successful they are the better are their chances on the job market.

It's a double win because highly qualified people tend to earn more... When was the last time you saw an MD or a lawyer just scratching by on the wages a brick layer earns? They don't only pay more taxes from their earnings, they also pay more sales taxes (VAT) as they will be able to afford more, especially if they aren't encumbered by paying back the debt the accumulated as students.

It's a fairly simple principle isn't it? Oh and maybe, just maybe freeze the wages of university lecturers a bit...



Point taken.   Ideas like this are what we need.

http://universitiesandcolleges.org/free-online-college-courses/   <--this is the link I was referring to- more so then the magazine.  

As it turns out the UK does have this as well-  

http://unow.nottingham.ac.uk/about.html

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 3:12:13 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Most European countries have them and some of them actually practise the ideas above...

It's in the interest of each country to have highly skilled people, with more and more jobs being replaced or outsourced, more people get laid off, the simple jobs that machines can do will be the first ones to go (how many waitresses are getting replaced by self service? A robot doing the job a few humans did won't need sick pay, holiday pay, social insurance and all the rest) so the higher skilled you are the better are your chances on the job market. Also people that are highly skilled don't tend to be unemployed and earn more (and pay more taxes, also not just income tax but the sales taxes as they can buy more and often will, due to a higher disposable income), it benefits the country as well.

And as I said, it doesn't matter if you have a college degree or not, you will at one point in your life if not several, need somebody with a degree (unless you will never get sick, never have a tooth ache, never an accident, never have a legal problem.... - I wouldn't take my chances there though), so you will pay there rates, their rates will also depend upon how much it cost them to obtain their qualifications and how much of a demand there is, if there are only a few because not a lot can afford to get the qualifications, you can imagine what that will do to their rates...

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 3:23:04 PM   
pahunkboy


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The people you speak of are more the Masters level- PhD level.

A BA can easily be gotten as it does not require the hands on skills that the advanced degrees do.  And of course we need the highly skilled.    The bulk of the population tho will never be brain surgeons or rocket scientists.  Not everyone is cut out for it.

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 3:33:59 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Those would be advanced degrees, yes, and nope, not everybody is cut out for them and a lot of people do rather great jobs...

I don't know if it is that easy to get a BA, I found that actually the hardest part because it comes first, you are getting used to academic life, how to handle it all and how to balance things.

You know, how often do you need a brain surgeon and how often do you need just a regular doctor? But why would you educate less doctors than are needed? To create an artificial demand?

Accountants need college, everybody needs accountants, self-employed tradesmen do, pharmacists need college...

I think we should be raising the bar when it comes to the quality of education and not lowering it.

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 5:41:39 PM   
DMFParadox


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A lot of those universities are offering advanced engineering/mathematics degrees, which is why I was interested in them. I'm good at computers, but I like making things and playing with circles and triangles. And proof theory, big on that too. I saw one of the universities I was checking out mention full ride work study, and googled the concept.

In sum, these are not bullshit programs, for the most part. Some employers may value them more. I know one kernel of wisdom I heard has held true: Straight out of college, your best asset is your extracurricular projects; don't skimp on them. These guys make it part of the package, and essentially pay you for the privilege.


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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/17/2010 5:58:22 PM   
pahunkboy


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I have to say- there has been expansion of this type of thing- from when I last looked.

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RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under ... - 12/18/2010 12:02:43 AM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The people you speak of are more the Masters level- PhD level.

A BA can easily be gotten as it does not require the hands on skills that the advanced degrees do.  And of course we need the highly skilled.    The bulk of the population tho will never be brain surgeons or rocket scientists.  Not everyone is cut out for it.



No Pa, a BA cannot be easily got, it is not an easy qualification, and as it is not that many people have it, I heard about 18% of the educated population of the world, which amounts to not a lot. As to you saying it does not require hands on experience, I beg to differ on that, for to obtain a BA, one has to master their own practice, well that is in the UK at least, not sure about the US.

I am currently on a FDA, which is a foundation course for a BA, in my practice, I already work at MA level, but my use of academia is not up to scratch, so I am at FDA level to learn the Academia after 23 years away from college education, where I was then, I obtained an OND and a HND in two seperate disciplines, mostly pure theory, civil engineer and electronics engineer. I was at one time involved in tunnelling and later aircraft repair. I am very hands on, I apply theory well, but academia, I struggle with, mostly because of my attitude, I simply fail to accept other's words without sound reasoning and arts related guff, is just that, guff, babble by the chattering classes, useless to me, but I have to know how to navigate it and if necessary, use it as that is a large part of the BA requirement.

You see, twenty odd years in industry doing the job has taught me that because a book says something is right, that does not mean it is right in practice, I am therefore suspicious of things and so with that I am expecting and make allowances for failiures so that failures do not occur with what I do, whilst the younger students around me fail, get angry and make noises on how I seem so good at things, it is simple I tell them, think before you do, get to the point where you expect to see things happening as the process moves along, there is no magic in it, just theoretical reasoning and observation, create the process in your mind before you do and make mindful points where you expect to see something happening but they just want things to happen, like yesterday, no patience, but perhaps that is the advantage of  age, it creates patience.


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