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Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 8:10:58 AM

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There is a thread in Off Topic here: http://www.collarchat.com/m_3514311/tm.htm about guns. In it, I have been taken aback at a fundamental difference in viewpoints between we Americans and the British. The British in that thread seem to assume that if guns are outlawed, that they will more or less disappear. The Americans assume that if guns are outlawed, then the criminal element will simply keep them illegally.

US cops carry guns. Last I heard, British ones don't. Assuming that simply the uniform will get enough respect that a gun isn't needed.

The impression I get is that overall, the British tend to follow laws and assume others do as well. We Americans are more prone to think of those that break the rules.

Anyone else get that impression?

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 8:15:54 AM

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We incarcerate a large % of people. So from that perspective we are wild.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 8:21:19 AM

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I think you got the wrong end of the stick here, not about who is more law abiding...

Basically guns are rare in most European countries, you can't just go into any gun shop and buy them, so they are expensive, sure criminals can get them but not quite that easily, I don't know about the legal situation in the UK, but I know in Germany being caught with a firearm gets you roughly 5 years, unless you have a license for one, which are hard to come by and require extensive tests, psychological profiling, a damned good reason (like being the body guard of somebody who needs protection, having received threads and living in a remote location, etc.), now if you are looking at 5 years in prison, your average burglar doesn't want to add that to the punishment.

You are basically having 2 different cultures here, one where almost everybody has a gun and since the baddies have them anyway the goodies need them too to sort of even the scales, and a culture where hardly anybody has a gun in the first place.

The European way wouldn't work for the US, the US way wouldn't work for most of Europe...

Nothing to do with more law abiding.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 8:24:19 AM

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...yeah- we are law breakers- look at how the govt sends armed agents to bust sellers of raw milk- and Amish food co-ops.

We are bad to the bone. BAD I say. BAD!

;-)

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 8:26:56 AM

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The addition of a gun in a robbery, in the US, is another 10 years to the sentence

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 8:32:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The addition of a gun in a robbery, in the US, is another 10 years to the sentence

The stakes change if you involve a gun in a crime, but I know in Germany the simple possession of a gun buys you 5 years, now if you involve a gun in any sort of criminal activity, they will assume you were willing to use it and kill somebody.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 8:36:27 AM

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Pretty much the assumption here. Some have been convicted for just having a hand in their pocket, proclaiming it to be a gun. But i do see your point. Licenses are easier to get here. There are also many unlicensed guns on the streets.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 8:49:44 AM

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The way they see it here is trying to keep guns out of the hands of people who might be criminals or are possibly just a bit too trigger happy, by all means, if that means that your average law abiding citizen can't have them, then it's just a price that has to be paid.

Now the US never had that, so guns are much more common and as Steven said in another post, even if the US would make guns illegal the part of population who shouldn't have them won't give them up anyway...

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 8:58:41 AM

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Unless we are willing to pay for them. Surprisingly many such programs are somewhat successful.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/28/opinion/trading-guns-for-toys.html

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/survival/article_9fdb9f40-0ca7-11e0-87f1-001cc4c03286.html

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 8:58:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
The impression I get is that overall, the British tend to follow laws and assume others do as well. We Americans are more prone to think of those that break the rules.

I don't think gun ownership - or even a State's recourse to physical force in general - plays more than a minor part in keeping a population under control, Steven. A concoction of economic, social, cultural and political forces does the job far more effectively.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 9:00:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/28/opinion/trading-guns-for-toys.html

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/survival/article_9fdb9f40-0ca7-11e0-87f1-001cc4c03286.html

Intriguing. I love these 'outside of the box' ideas!

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 9:01:05 AM

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Well, Steve, since I have seen a couple of Guy Ritchie movies, I'm certainly qualified to spout all sorts of wisdom about the witty but stupid criminals in England...

I do think casual disregard for the law is pretty common in our country. What I pick up from many of our posters from across the pond, and to our north, is more acceptance of the individual's role in society as that of a subject, rather than a free agent. Maybe the gap is in the American notion that our rights are inherent, and laws that intrude on them are for ignoring, vs. the Old World acceptance of their rights being something granted by king/government?

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 9:07:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I do think casual disregard for the law is pretty common in our country. What I pick up from many of our posters from across the pond, and to our north, is more acceptance of the individual's role in society as that of a subject, rather than a free agent. Maybe the gap is in the American notion that our rights are inherent, and laws that intrude on them are for ignoring, vs. the Old World acceptance of their rights being something granted by king/government?

That's kinda what I was trying to state. Thanks for rephrasing it so well.

Here we seem to have the cult of the individual. It has its pluses and its minuses. There is a strong lawless element, but OTOH, we have a bent for pioneering new things. As an example, the Japanese are famous for taking an existing process and patiently improving it bit by bit, squeezing an extra half percent of efficiency here, a quarter percent there. But we Americans developed most of those processes, inefficiencies and all.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 9:16:36 AM

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You practically give up inherent rights when you decide to be part of society because lawmakers have to decide what being a responsible member of society means; what rights you need and which rights you can do without. In terms of your current laws there are all kinds of infringements on your rights, that don't involve guns, but you don't hear anyone complaining about those. People should stop focusing on words such as 'subject' or 'civilian' such words have little to do with anything, the difference is in the realm of semantics.

The bigger point is that we are all subject to the same laws even the people that make laws, so are those people subjugating themselves by forming laws of any kind?

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 1/1/2011 9:21:47 AM >

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 9:22:51 AM

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quote:

Maybe the gap is in the American notion that our rights are inherent, and laws that intrude on them are for ignoring, vs. the Old World acceptance of their rights being something granted by king/government?

I think it is more of a difference what rights are important to you, for example the funny thing for me as a European is that some people in the US claim that we must all live in nanny states because we can't just go out and get guns, for most Europeans that's absolutely unimportant, however if say we'd have the same situation as in the US where prostitution would be illegal (apart from that one place in Nevada, I believe) people would find that as the state getting influenced in our personal rights. Even if you don't have the desire to be a prostitute or be a customer of one, the government regulating what consenting adults can do would for most European be a much more grave issue than being able to buy a gun. Oddly enough the gun fraction never seems to consider that....

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 9:24:01 AM

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Steven- the English curl their pinky when they drink tea.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 9:27:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Steven- the English curl their pinky when they drink tea.

I'm going to shock you with this revelation, but the UK (one part of the UK is England) is not the whole of Europe, and most of Europe has very strict laws regarding guns in the hands of civilians.

However what drinking tea has to do with guns or being a law abiding citizen is unclear to me, I'm not aware that there is a law how one does drink tea in any European country. Maybe you could enlighten me there?

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 9:28:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Steven- the English curl their pinky when they drink tea.

Nice stereotype but when I was five I discovered that fingers were for gripping things.

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 9:33:07 AM

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My understanding from my German friends is that Germany is one of the easiest places in Europe to own a gun and many of them do.

The way it was explained to me is that the easiest way to get a license is under the provision for Sport Shooters. Whether you get a yellow card or green depends on the type of weapon. There was nothing difficult to complete only time consuming.

You have to complete a gun course which they described as taking 2 to 4 evenings and then take a multiple choice test. That is followed by a practical exam showing that you can handle the weapon in a safe manner.

The time consuming part is where you must show that you have been "regularly and successfully" practicing under the rules of an approved shooting association. They explained that to me as finding a Shooting Club that you fit in with and going practice a couple of times a month. It was also pointed out to me that the Shooting Clubs were easy to find as there are over 30 just in the Stuttgart area.

You've joined as club and become a sport shooter. That fulfills the need portion. A license for hunting or a license to carry are both much harder to come by but the sport shooters license is pretty easy. There are a lot of 12 year old Americans who could qualify.

The whole idea that Europeans don't like guns is a myth. Like everything else, some do and some don't. There is a huge gun range in Orlando right in the middle of the tourist area. It does huge business with the European tourist. It might be the only time some of them leave Disney property. They love renting the automatics and big calibers and banging away.

< Message edited by flcouple2009 -- 1/1/2011 9:36:15 AM >

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RE: Are the British more law abiding than Americans? - 1/1/2011 9:38:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Steven- the English curl their pinky when they drink tea.

Pahunk's Tea Party

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