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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 7:36:59 AM

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It may be sufficient for you to agree, but the reality says otherwise.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 7:51:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It may be sufficient for you to agree, but the reality says otherwise.

I have no idea what you mean. Are you saying the Pope is powerless?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 8:06:20 AM

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Not at all. Im saying his power isnt the awe-inspiring, take-over-the-world kind that Popes had in the past. He wields alot of power still, just not the unchallenged kind many want to try and implicate the position still retains.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 11:35:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Not at all. Im saying his power isnt the awe-inspiring, take-over-the-world kind that Popes had in the past. He wields alot of power still, just not the unchallenged kind many want to try and implicate the position still retains.

Agreed! The "awe-inspiring, take-over-the-world" power that Popes possessed seems to me to meet the threshold of "considerable" power, which was:
"[C]onsiderable" here means: such a level of power that the abuse of it would pose a serious problem." It's unnecessary for that power to be current for the argument to hold, merely that it exists or has existed is more than adequate.

I'm glad this relatively minor point has been clarified. How do you feel about the rest of the argument?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/12/2011 11:44:48 AM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 11:37:28 AM

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quote:

"[C]onsiderable" here means: such a level of power that the abuse of it would pose a serious problem." It's unnecessary for that power to be current for the argument to hold, merely that it exists or has existed.

Ok, show me how, in this day and time, that the Pope could abuse his power to the extent that the position has in the past.

Im sorry, but it seems those who wish to not believe are living in the past more than those who do.

quote:

I'm glad this relatively minor point has been clarified.

Please dont assume anything has been clarified or agreed upon unless we both state so.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 2/12/2011 11:40:04 AM >

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 12:08:25 PM

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quote:

Tazzygirl

Ok, show me how, in this day and time, that the Pope could abuse his power to the extent that the position has in the past.

Even if this claim is granted in full, it doesn't negate or affect the argument in any way. In that sense its relevance is unclear to me.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/12/2011 12:12:54 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 10:45:41 PM

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First you post this....

quote:

It's sufficient for the argument I posed that it is agreed that the Pope wields a considerable amount of power over the faithful. "[C]onsiderable" here means: such a level of power that the abuse of it would pose a serious problem. The mere existence of the Papal infallibility claim is IMHO enough to make the point. Others may require a higher level of persuasion.

Then this....

quote:

Agreed! The "awe-inspiring, take-over-the-world" power that Popes possessed seems to me to meet the threshold of "considerable" power, which was:
"[C]onsiderable" here means: such a level of power that the abuse of it would pose a serious problem." It's unnecessary for that power to be current for the argument to hold, merely that it exists or has existed is more than adequate.

The first being present tense... then when I point out the followers argue with him, you switch to past tense.

Why is it unnecessary for that power to be current?

"[C]onsiderable" here means: such a level of power that the abuse of it would pose a serious problem."

This doesnt claim a past tense usage. Considerable power is something someone can wield in the here and now. That would be akin, at least to me and how im reading this, as GW Bush still having Considerable Power over the Government... or even Ronald Reagan.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 10:57:00 PM

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This is boiling down to an argument over how prevalent the catholic church is becoming. Most varieties of christians are self-determining, a la carte types nowadays, which diminishes the influence of an authority figure like the pope.

I'm sure there are still handfuls of classical catholics who still adhere to papal infallibility, though.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 11:02:00 PM

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There is no argument... at least on my side. And what you term a-la-carte others prefer to see it as a deeper understanding. The end result is the same.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 11:08:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And what you term a-la-carte others prefer to see it as a deeper understanding.

More like egocentrism, really. Psychologically and ethically, it certainly follows that a person should be free to be able to construct their own existential systems and, thereby, wield sole rights to what the "true" answers are to those existential questions, but theologically speaking, it's about people much less informed (typically) deciding they're sure that their answers are "truer" to systems they've constructed via plagiarism of select abrahamic doctrines.

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I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 11:16:59 PM

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Awwww... you sure do talk purdy.

(or maybe that should be type)

So what you are saying is that psychologically and ethically, those who dine at the a-la-carte wagon are correct, but, theologically speaking, they are intellectually inferior.

The problem I have with that is, in this day and age, people have the ability to obtain massive amounts of information... all readily available at their fingertips.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 11:32:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

This is boiling down to an argument over how prevalent the catholic church is becoming. Most varieties of christians are self-determining, a la carte types nowadays, which diminishes the influence of an authority figure like the pope.

I'm sure there are still handfuls of classical catholics who still adhere to papal infallibility, though.

I find myself sidetracked into discussing an example offered to illustrate a point (the Catholic stuff) instead of the argument itself, thus perhaps creating the situation that you refer to above.

The initial argument is put is post #611.

Issue is being taken with the claim there that, historically, people in positions of religious authority have abused their positions for non-religious profit and gain. I don't understand why issue is being taken with such a historically correct claim. Tazzygirl has many times argued that religion is used as an excuse for political and other purposes.

All that is germane to the initial argument here is that we accept that people in positions of religious authority have been among those who have used (/abused) religion for political and other purposes.

The next step in the argument is to claim that this has happened so many times historically and across cultures that such abuses of religion for temporal ends are inevitable. Sooner or later in any given religion, someone in a position of authority in that religion will abuse it for their own purposes. God may well be divine but humans aren't.

None of that seems terribly controversial to me. None of it makes any comment on the veracity, the merits or demerits of any religion. It is more about the inevitability of human failings in the context of religious institutions.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/12/2011 11:39:06 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 11:44:17 PM

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Since post 611 was in reply to someone else, I wasnt taking on that discussion. I just extracted one point and addressed that. I was looking at another of your posts for the discussion you were seeking and could not find how we were at odds. But it now makes sense.

quote:

Issue is being taken with the claim there that, historically, people in positions of religious authority have abused their positions for non-religious profit and gain. I don't understand why issue is being taken with such a historically correct claim. Tazzygirl has many times argued that religion is used as an excuse for political and other purposes.

I have no issue with this.

quote:

All that is germane to the initial argument here is that we accept that people in positions of religious authority have been among those who have used (/abused) religion for political and other purposes.

Agreed. In the past, this has been so.

quote:

The next step in the argument is to claim that this has happened so many times historically and across cultures that such abuses of religion for temporal ends is inevitable. Sooner or later in any given religion, someone in a position of authority in that religion will abuse it for their own purposes. God may well be divine but humans aren't.

Will abuse it? Or will attempt to abuse it? I prefer to believe the attempts will be made time and time again, across all ages to come, across all religions, and even having nothing to do with religions at all. I also prefer to believe that with age comes wisdom. And its much harder to hide such attempts now that it has been in the past.

quote:

None of that seems terribly controversial to me. None of it makes any comment on the veracity, the merits or demerits of any religion. It is more about the inevitability of human failings in the context of religious institutions.

I suppose if I have to make an issue of any of this, it would be the intelligence level of the generations of today.

Will it be attempted again?

Yes.

Will it succeed?

Only if we allow it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/12/2011 11:55:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

None of that seems terribly controversial to me. None of it makes any comment on the veracity, the merits or demerits of any religion. It is more about the inevitability of human failings in the context of religious institutions.

I'm not disagreeing. Wielding even remote metaphysical prestige in a realm where zealotry breeds easily can have detrimental effects, true.

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I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/13/2011 7:06:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

historically, people in positions of religious authority have abused their positions for non-religious profit and gain. I don't understand why issue is being taken with such a historically correct claim.

I don't understand why the claim is being limited to "religious authority". As a practical matter, it makes little difference whether or not the power being wielded is "divine". The Stasi and its equivalents work just as well, one might even argue better.

Power corrupts, as the old saying goes. In other news, the sky is still blue.

K.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/13/2011 7:24:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

historically, people in positions of religious authority have abused their positions for non-religious profit and gain. I don't understand why issue is being taken with such a historically correct claim.

I don't understand why the claim is being limited to "religious authority". As a practical matter, it makes little difference whether or not the power being wielded is "divine". The Stasi and its equivalents work just as well, one might even argue better.

Power corrupts, as the old saying goes. In other news, the sky is still blue.

K.

You're prefectly correct to point out that all kinds of power corrupt. In this instance, the argument put in post #611 is limited to religious authority.

A similar argument could be made for any type of totalising concept, any ideology that asserts its absolute righteousness. I had fully intended to pose such an argument as soon as we had dealt with this argument, if it was necessary.

You have *pre-empted* the next argument in the list! :) (no claims of self defence will be accepted! lol)

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/13/2011 6:06:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Self defense often is preemptive. An iconic example...

If the guy is over on the other side of town bad-mouthing you, and you decide to drive over there and kill him, that's murder.

Absolutely.

It also certainly wouldn't be analogous to a kill or die scenario like Harris is talking about.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/13/2011 6:26:10 PM

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quote:

in this day and age, people have the ability to obtain massive amounts of information... all readily available at their fingertips.

And that's why everyone is always right.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/13/2011 6:57:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It also certainly wouldn't be analogous to a kill or die scenario like Harris is talking about.

An Islamist regime with nuclear weapons is a "kill or die" scenario?

(response to MM, not GS)

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/13/2011 6:58:59 PM >

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 2/14/2011 9:32:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The existence of a God-entity is almost always associated with a group of humans who claim to represent God in this world, usually a church or suchlike. Such people are prone to human failings.

I hadn't been thinking about this in terms of needing a really tall hat to get reception. My line of thinking was that if there was a method by which we could access god then we could all just listen to god instead of those various groups.

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