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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 6:05:42 AM

pahunkboy

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Dude- the shooter is into satanism.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 6:08:56 AM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Since the vast majority of those accused by McCarthy of being Communists were later proven to be Communists, whats your point?

So we can go ahead and scrap the due process of law as long as it turns out that we might be right? Ends justify the means?

It's been documented that McCarthy's least concern was whether those he accused really WERE Commies or not. If he happened to be correct that much, it's amazing.

And I just checked Wikipedia. Many if not most of those accused by McCarthy were done so in such a vague fashion that it was impossible to verify ("The State Department is overrun by Communists".) Wiki states that Joihn Earl Haynes investigated those accused by McCarthy and found that nine of the 159 people accused by McCarthy were likely Communists. Hardly a "vast majority", willbe.

Feel free to use a source should you choose to counter.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 6:37:44 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

the fact remains Americas death rate in this type of incident is exceptionally high.

32 hurt in latest China school knife attack

A jobless knife-wielding man injured 32 people, mostly young children, at a kindergarten in eastern China Thursday in the country's third school stabbing frenzy since last month.

China already has gun-control. And when they institute tighter knife-controls, this kind of story will read "a jobless pencil-wielding man".

Try to think a little deeper about the causes of these kinds of outrages.

K.

A poor comparison.

From your article:

All of the 29 children injured in the attack in the city of Taixing were in stable condition, a government official told AFP.

Now try to tell me that if a gun had been used there would not have been lethal consequences.

Edited because I forgot to add the author's conclusion from the article:

Despite the rising violence, extremely tight laws that bar virtually all private gun ownership prevent death tolls from reaching levels seen in shooting attacks in other countries.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 1/11/2011 6:42:53 AM >

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 7:17:29 AM

pahunkboy

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China invented gun powder in 1066. Hence the shooting is Chinas fault.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 7:22:53 AM

lovmuffin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

To quote Rush, "There is no evidence that he listened to talk radio. There is no evidence he listened to Fox News. There is no evidence that he saw Sarah Palin's Facebook page. No evidence he saw her lame website with the crosshairs."

And if he has?

Metaphors associated with violence have been used in politics since the declaration of independence. It doesn't matter if he listened to punk rock or read Catcher In The Rye or what ever else might have motivated him. I have problems with the current political climate but I'm not going to go off shooting or bombing or anything else like that. I don't have any easy answers for the problem of potential psychotic mass murdering idiots. Some people are just going to snap.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 7:48:07 AM

pahunkboy

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(sarcasm) when oh when- will we remedy this Jew on Jew crime.

both the shooter and Gifford are Jewish.

/snip

What the media is downplaying is the shooters obsession with the occult.

And now the whole thing is a nut show. Did you expect anything less then a nut show?

The outcome can only be a decline in the liberties. A lessening of the Constitution.

The fact is - this type of thing has happened for centuries.

WW1 started from a shot in the head.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 7:50:09 AM

DomImus

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Juan Williams made an interesting observation last night on Fox News. He noted (paraphrasing) that after the Fort Hood shootings caution was urged and also people were urged not to make any rash judgments. He also noted that the shooter in that incident was a Muslim. Not so this time. The blame game began immediately. Hypocrisy.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 7:55:37 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"A majority of voters are content with the decision to allow a culture in which the citizens have the right to keep and bear arms. That results in some occasions like this nutcase over the weekend. The price of freedom... "

.....then anytime you feel like it, how about you mosey on over to the parents of the kid that was killed, you know the kid that was born on 9/11. Then you look them in the eye and tell them that their daughters murder is a price for freedom that you're apparently happy to pay.

Let me know how that goes.

Why should I? I am not the one who shot their kid. And while I feel sadness over the useless loss of a life, I am also smart enough to know that I did not cause it nor did the law that allows for gun ownership cause it...the nut who picked up the gun and fired the bullets caused it.

There are laws against murder. Should I feel responsible every time some nut uses a knife to kill someone because knives are allowed to be owned? Should I feel responsible when some nutcase sets his ex and/or his kids on fire because the law allows people to own lighters and matches and gasoline?

Sorry philosophy...you trot out an old emotional argument against gun ownership that makes little sense when looked at reasonably and rationally.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 8:06:59 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Dude- the shooter is into satanism.

Really? You said occultism last time.
Make your mind up.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 8:10:44 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Dude- the shooter is into satanism.

Really? You said occultism last time.
Make your mind up.

....satanioccultystuffBUYMOREGOLDTHEQUEENISALIZARD

(did i miss any salient points?)

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 8:12:17 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Actually, I would say you are right only in Panda's use of the general "we". A majority of voters are content with the decision to allow a culture in which the citizens have the right to keep and bear arms. That results in some occasions like this nutcase over the weekend. The price of freedom...

Considering that no one has ever voted on it, I have to wonder how you determined the majority are content with it.

Because in most areas of the country where they have tried to enact restriction of guns, those in favor of the restrictions have never been able to get their more restrictive measures passed. Some control...sure. Full control? Not yet....

quote:

quote:

As for your earlier assertion re: this being due to the inflammatory rhetoric of right-wing conservatives? See my post regarding that...and listen to anyone with sense. Free speech is just that...free speech. While I may not like what Hillary or Obama or Olbermann or Michael Moore have to say, as long as they are not inciting left-wing riots they have a right to say it. Ward Churchill, with his call to take to the streets, may be a different case. I don't agree with all that Beck or Limbaugh or G. Will have to say either, but as long as they are not encouraging violence...and don't run through that tired bullshit about Palin's crosshairs, please...they have a right to say it. This nut was responsible for his own actions...and given that his favorite reading material, as reported by various folks in the mass media, seemed to be centered around the Communist Manifesto and one of his favorite activities appeared to be smoking pot, the argument could be made that he is more left than right. From there, it would be just as easy to cite "leftist" sources for his dissatisfaction with a "progressive" who did not stand far enough to the left...and it would be a wrong citation.

I don't even know where to begin with this.

Okay, let's start here:

"....and one of his favorite activities appeared to be smoking pot, the argument could be made that he is more left than right."

Soooooooooooo...........................conservatives don't smoke weed? Is that what you really want to argue?

Show me where I said it and I will argue it. But I did not. Can you deny that it is an activity found more commonly among those professing "progressive" thought?

quote:

But let's move on to the more interesting parts of your post.

On one hand you are defending the right to free speech, which I agree with.

But on the other hand you are trying to deny that people are influenced by what they hear.

Again, you need to read what I write. I do not deny that people are influenced by what they hear and that some people hear things wrongly. However...it is once again one of the consequences of the liberties we enjoy, including the liberty of free speech.

I do find it funny that the left...while crying out against censorship when those on the right say there should not be a movie about assassination of G. Bush or who state that tax dollars should not go to artistic depictions of Christ in urine or who advocate against violent video games or movies LOVE to point to talk show hosts, NONE of whom are advocating or urging their audience to take violent measures against others, and say that THEY are the cause of violence in America. It is as ludicrous as saying that some video game or that the movie about assassinating G. Bush would have been responsible for some person committing murder. The person commiting the act is responsible...not the game, not the movie, not the talk show hosts.

quote:

And yes, regarding what Palin said, while not directly encouraging violence, it is not hard to see how someone who is mentally unstable to begin with would take this as encouragement.

Dem lawmaker takes exception with Palin 'reload' comment

Palin tweeted Tuesday about the passage of the healthcare reform bill into law:Commonsense Conservatives & lovers of America: "Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!" Pls see my Facebook page

I will say it again...I do NOT want to see a country that becomes so milk-pure that nothing that could possibly be seen as offensive to someone is made illegal. You have the right to not like what I say...but as long as I am not telling you to go out and murder or rape or rob someone, then you have no right to tell me what I can say. And the answer of blaming rhetoric is about as sensible as blaming the movies and the video games and everything else that the left defends as being "freedom of expression"

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 1/11/2011 8:14:02 AM >

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 8:24:43 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

And the answer of blaming rhetoric is about as sensible as blaming the movies and the video games and everything else that the left defends as being "freedom of expression"

........i agree with you that, when we talk of rhetoric in this context, we are dealing with something with no direct links to consequences. There's no straight line between the words of a Palin or a Sharpton and the acts of seriously misguided people.
However, don't you think that people whose voices get more media attention should be mindful not just of what they say, but the tone of their words? i'm not saying that political discourse must be neutered to the point of bland civility. Some of my favorite insults are political in nature. But there are degrees of hostility and disrespect.
In civilised societies, the political discission is usually (and only mostly uniformly) based on an assumption that ones opponent may be factualy wrong, but is honourably motivated. i believe that this line has been crossed in the US, to that countries dis-service. Phrases like libtards and repukelicans have got way too much useage.
It's one thing to strongly and passionately defend political positions, but once we polarise and personalise that sort of argument then we are taking the brakes off an engine that, sometimes, goes where we really don't want it go..........

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 9:14:52 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Of the three attacks, there were only deaths in one, thankfully.

You have my apology for incorrectly "correcting" you on this one.

Thanks to RML.

K.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 9:33:51 AM

willbeurdaddy

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Propbably needs its own thread, but in so many of these cases all of the warning signs are there and those in positions of authority are limited in their ability to take decisive action. The tension between individual liberties and protection of society are impossible to resolve in this PC society.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 9:36:31 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Since the vast majority of those accused by McCarthy of being Communists were later proven to be Communists, whats your point?

While I'm certainly willing to get into a discussion of Joe McCarthy, McCarthyism or what the Verona documents reveal about the communist infiltration of the United States government immediately following World War II, I don't believe that this thread is the place to do so. That would be a massive threadjack. Start a new thread and I'll be happy to post there.

My point was that Joe McCarthy's success was due his bombastic, accusatory and attack-filled rhetoric. That this success was noticed by the political thinkers of the time and emulated and expanded going forward and that the extremely partisan and anger-fueled debates going on today occur for the same reason that Joe McCarthy ranted and postured rather than debating in a calm civil manner - it works.

One man's "Ranting and posturing" is another man's impassioned attempts to protect the country from perils that he had plenty of evidence were a threat.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 9:37:35 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I've been offline for a couple of days but following the story. When I got home, I read this whole thread. Does anyone else notice that wilbur and truckinslave havent posted here? I bet they support the sick asshole and that's why they haven't posted.

Nope, just waiting to see which morons tried to turn it into a political issue. You qualified nicely.

Yes or no. Are you secretly happy about what he did?

A stupid question that doesnt deserve to be dignified with an answer.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 9:38:36 AM

Hillwilliam

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In other words, you're afraid to be honest.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 9:40:42 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

-I would also say that there is a simple reason why the level of angry rhetoric has been steadily increasing. It's because it works. Fear-mongering is a hugely successful tactic. The ranting demagogue defeats the calm intelligent debator. You might not want it that way, but that's the way it is. Joe McCarthy's anti-communist screed is looked down upon now but it was hugely successful. He won office. He got re-elected. You don't think the big political thinkers noticed this?

Since the vast majority of those accused by McCarthy of being Communists were later proven to be Communists, whats your point?

In the first "Communist Hunting" hearings, McCarthy claimed he had 108 communists names that worked in the state department.
The conclusion of the commission *a drum roll please*

ZERO of the 108 were shown to be commies. In fact, some of those 108 had never worked for the state dept.

McCarthy died at age 48 before he could try to be elected for a third term of complications of alcoholism.

Learn some real history, not what 6th graders get to see. I dont expect you to actually have the capability of making it through a book, but google the Venona cables.

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 9:42:53 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As a matter of fact the last evaluation I saw said of the 159 people on various lists McCarthy actually produced only 9 were actual spies.
http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/page62.html

And from the last evaluation you saw there was no decline in the velocity of money. You're extremely selective with your "evaluations".

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RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot - 1/11/2011 9:45:15 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

In other words, you're afraid to be honest.

No, I dont suffer fools, and you are second on the list in this thread.

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