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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 10:17:37 AM   
Charles6682


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Darka,that actually did happen in Flordia a few years ago.A Dom and a Female submissive were in a consensual D/S relationship.There was one thing,the girl had Bipolar.Well,some how somebody found out about this and eventually,the local news was all over this guy.The police came and arrested him from his own home.How can a grown adult who should know better,take this poor innocent girl who has Bipolar and make her his slave?Just terrible,right?!?! Well,thats exactly what happened.Even though,they had a signed contract and they were both of legal age.I can understand if the girl was underage or she was forced against her will.However,everything was done legally.However,because of the fact she had Bipolar,the cops didnt believe this young Lady knew what she was getting into.Plus the local media were having fun with this case.

So,I do think taking in account mental illness should be considered.However,I think its should also be noticed,that if the submissive is clearly stable and doing the right things,they should be at least be given a fair chance.

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 10:22:16 AM   
Charles6682


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I do not believe in holding prejudice over someone who has a mental illness either though.Just like with any other medical illness,it should be a case by case situation.Like someone said earlier,I wouldn't hold someone responsible because they had a mental illness.Now,if they had a mental illness and they didn't get it propley treated,then thats a different situation.If I have a bad medical injury,I would expect to go see a doctor and get it fixed.I wouldnt let my problem get worse.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 1/30/2011 10:23:09 AM >


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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 10:28:56 AM   
kalikshama


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Charles, you're not talking about the case where he killed her pets and administered an abortion on her himself, are you? While her being able to go to work and have a cellphone may have made the relationship seem consensual, the pet killing screamed Stockholm Syndrome to me.

ETA: Nevermind, that was in Missouri, not Florida. Please provide a link for your case.





< Message edited by kalikshama -- 1/30/2011 10:47:26 AM >

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 10:36:00 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW
Say what???   This does not really make sense, at all Rule.

Then I must be right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW
Why don't I recall your being this off, in a previous life?

I only got to be a supergenius after I died. (Or were you talking about your previous life?)

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 10:38:31 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
On the one hand - the entire weight of clinical research, learning and understanding of mental health issues.

On the other, your incorrect assumptions.

Hmmmmm ... it's a tough call, but I'm going to go with the clinical folk on this one.

Why? If they are as good as you think, why are the proportion of people on psychoactive medications steadily increasing? Why is the condition of pyroaquatic worsening?

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 10:59:29 AM   
MaxsGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Why? If they are as good as you think, why are the proportion of people on psychoactive medications steadily increasing? Why is the condition of pyroaquatic worsening?



Because people increasingly seek treatment rather than sweeping their condition under the rug (or having it swept under for them by friends and family).  As for the OP, no one here can say why his condition is worsening, because we aren't able to give him, and his current treatment plan, a full assessment.

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 11:21:39 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Darka,that actually did happen in Flordia a few years ago.A Dom and a Female submissive were in a consensual D/S relationship.There was one thing,the girl had Bipolar.Well,some how somebody found out about this and eventually,the local news was all over this guy.The police came and arrested him from his own home.How can a grown adult who should know better,take this poor innocent girl who has Bipolar and make her his slave?Just terrible,right?!?! Well,thats exactly what happened.Even though,they had a signed contract and they were both of legal age.I can understand if the girl was underage or she was forced against her will.However,everything was done legally.However,because of the fact she had Bipolar,the cops didnt believe this young Lady knew what she was getting into.Plus the local media were having fun with this case.


She would have had to have been a ward of the state, or institutionalised, for her bipolarity to have been any kind of legal issue.

Merely being bipolar does not restrict your rights under the law, unless Fl. has some especially wacky local laws. Which I doubt.

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 11:24:34 AM   
Madame4a


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I realized, coming back to this thread that mental illness does bring up some issues of informed consent.  I think with some mental illness, you'd really have to consider carefully if the person could give informed consent.



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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 11:27:06 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl
Because people increasingly seek treatment rather than sweeping their condition under the rug (or having it swept under for them by friends and family).

But why do they get sick? Why do they not recover spontaneously within two weeks as like in for instance measles? What sense is there in treating someone if they do not get better withing two weeks, as for example antibiotics do in case of a bacterial infection?

Why are the waiting rooms of not only psychiatrists but also of all physicians full and overflowing with patients instead of nearly empty? Can it be because them white coats have no idea what they are dealing with qua causes and how to treat and prevent them.

What is worse: can it be that so many people are in a medically declining condition because of iatrogenic diseases?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl
As for the OP, no one here can say why his condition is worsening, because we aren't able to give him, and his current treatment plan, a full assessment.

Quite. But I do notice that his current treatment plan appears to be ineffectual and actually might worsen his plight.

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 11:27:41 AM   
lizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi
I rejected his approach to the illness, not the illness.


This, for me as well. I can deal with a partner who has a medically challenging condition. I can not deal with a partner who manages that condition less than responsibly.

I will not be a toddler mommy; I require adult partners who can keep their shit together and be responsible for taking care of themselves on a basic level. That includes being self supporting and being responsible for taking care of their health needs in a proactive way. I can not be the Mommy and take care of the basic life needs of another adult; that is a total deal breaker for me.

So yes, someone with a mental illness who sought appropriate treatment and took the prescribed medications or did the therapist visits would be okay with me, even if they had rough patches that they needed extra love and support to get through. Someone with a mental illness who neglected their own care or needed me to constantly remind them to take care of themselves, no way. I can handle mental illness a lot better than I can handle irresponsibility or childlike needs for caretaking in an adult partner.


I like the way you put this LNT. Yes, it's about being responsible.

I can say with assurance that I kicked my illness's butt. I never stopped looking for answers or trying to get better. Along the way I found a combination of things that worked for me and and when they didn't work anymore I started looking again. It's a continual process that mutates from one thing to the next, like many things in life.

I eventually found a way to discontinue taking medication and except for a brief episode here and there I've been free from major depressive episodes for about 4 years now. I am the only one that can make me better and I take that responsibility. I am grateful that there are things I can do that work at this point. If they stopped working I'd make it my mission to start looking again.

My Dom had quadruple bypass surgery in Oct, he had no idea that he had artery blockage. He is one of the most proactive people I have met in the area of personal health, but he couldn't outrun his genetics in the end. Since then he is extremely careful about following what it is that he needs to do to stay free of future problems. I respect that approach. I wouldn't have picked someone with heart problems had I known about them, but I ended up with him and I don't regret it. His heart problems don't define him or what he has to offer me; his approach to his problems however does say who he is and what he can give to me.

Who knows what is coming up for any of us? Do what you can to take care of yourself and find answers if there are any to be found. Live your life as best you can. Whoever decides to come along for the ride will be drawn to the whole package and you may be surprised at how you view something as defective and someone else views it as an interesting facet of who you are.

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 11:44:22 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi
Who knows what is coming up for any of us? Do what you can to take care of yourself and find answers if there are any to be found. Live your life as best you can.


I met a guy while I was working Mental Health units who sort of changed my world view. Until then I thought "well I'm sane, and there's no way I ever wouldn't be" ... but his case fascinated me.

He'd been a normal man, with a normal life; wife (whom he loved very much, and she him), 2 beautiful daughters, no history of mental illness in his family, no signs of it in him.

One night, running the girls home from some sort of sports practice for the team they played for, there was a car crash, and his wife and both daughters were killed.

On hearing the news, he went instantly, fundamentally and irrevocably insane. With meds and treatment he was stabilised, but at the point I knew him, some 7 years later, he was still institutionalised, and most likely would be for the rest of his life. He wasn't violent (most of the time) he wasn't unpleasant (far from it) and he wasn't “I’m crazy!” insane ... he was just so profoundly depressed and confused – a part of his psyche had sort of “fused” into a fugue state.

If anyone harbours thoughts of “it couldn't happen to me!” or “I'm stronger than that!”; I’m here to say it could, and you may or may not be. Let’s hope no-one ever has to find out.

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 11:55:54 AM   
LadyPact


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Part of the problem with the question is that it's too broad.  Asking people if they would accept a submissive with a mental illness can be anything from mild depression to stark raving lunatic.  I don't even think it's possible to make the comparison of looking at a potential submissive who has a condition such as SAD, who responds well to light therapy and the whole management of the condition is flipping a light switch for thirty minutes a day (yes, literally one of the treatments that works) to someone who has a different disorder where regular in-patient therapy is required.  Even though Charles didn't cite a reference for his example, we really do have to accept that there are some people on this planet who are mentally challenged and can not possibly consent due to their condition.

Depression is a great example of this.  It can be anything from mild to debilitating.  So, asking if I'd be willing to enter a dynamic with someone with depression is still impossible to answer.  I'm in firm agreement with the others who stated that it relies heavily on how that person is managing the illness, but it also depends on severity.


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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 11:55:57 AM   
hausboy


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For me, there's some gray areas here.  There are those with truly profound mental illness-- disorders and diseases which completely inhibit their ability to live normal and healthy lives--and for me, I need to be with someone who is capable and able to live a healthy life, and keep up with mine.  If their illness prevents them from doing so, then I would not get involved with them, as we would not be a compatible match in other aspects of our relationship.  I've had plenty of experiences with people who have active addictions, active mental illness and don't get treated--and they cannot be a part of my life unless they can get their disease under control/managed.

But I feel compelled to say this here-- many do suffer from a variety of what the textbooks would call "mental illness" but effective treatment, through medication and/or behavioral therapy give them a chance to live a healthy life, albeit they may have more challenges than others.  I know lots of people with anxiety disorders--you'd never know it--because they are effectively managed.

I battled depression, anxiety and addiction most of life, however I lead a very healthy, busy and active life--I hold down an extremely responsible and important job that places the lives of others in my hands, maintain a house, friends, family-- am I mentally ill?  No.  Have I been diagnosed with mental illness?  Technically, yes. I am not disabled, do not consider myself sick or ill (because I'm not) and would argue that through extensive therapy and self-awareness of the "extra" challenges that I have to address/deal with, I am far healthier in how I respond to situations and deal with people than many of those who do NOT carry the stigma of a mental illness.

We would jump all over someone if they said: "I wouldn't date someone in a wheelchair or someone who had cancer."  But yet it is perfectly acceptable to say "I won't date someone if they have a mental illness diagnosis."   There are many, many degrees of illness and ability to function. The OP makes far too sweeping a statement.

A close friend's partner has Asperger's.  She is kind, loving and a wonderful partner.  Due to her illness. she must work from home, as an office is too stressful on her.  She has more challenges than other people in a lot of areas in her life, but she is lucky to have a partner who sees the wonderful woman she is, and not "a diagnosis of a mentally ill person."  My brother's wife has anxiety and is bi-polar.  She is still a loving wife and mother, runs her own business, has a huge circle of friends and is busier than anyone else I know.  On paper? She has a mental illness.  That doesn't stop her from living and enjoying life, and enriching the lives of others.

edited correction--


< Message edited by hausboy -- 1/30/2011 12:00:16 PM >

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 11:56:06 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
On hearing the news, he went instantly, fundamentally and irrevocably insane.

... he was just so profoundly depressed and confused – a part of his psyche had sort of “fused” into a fugue state.

That is sad. May he find peace.

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 12:07:17 PM   
hausboy


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Thanks for posting that RapierFugue.  I agree completely.

A few years back (okay, it's been more than a few now....) I was going through terrible depression and flashbacks from PTSD.  A former friend would call me--ask me how I was--cut me off after two sentences, and talk about herself for 2 hours on the phone.  After awhile, she'd call, and I'd say: "listen, I really need a friend right now who will just listen to what I'm going through because it's really hard."  her response: "you're a real downer, it's depressing dude. get over it already!"

I cut off the friendship after that call. She called me two or three years later--she was institutionalized, had a complete breakdown, was on disability and was suffering from drug/alcohol addiction on top of other mental illness.  She had no recollection of what she had said to me that made me cut off our friendship, by the way..

so yes.  it can happen to anyone, and it will change your whole perspective on mental illness if it does.

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 12:10:45 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy
We would jump all over someone if they said: "I wouldn't date someone in a wheelchair or someone who had cancer."  But yet it is perfectly acceptable to say "I won't date someone if they have a mental illness diagnosis."   There are many, many degrees of illness and ability to function. The OP makes far too sweeping a statement.

Some might.  I wouldn't.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a person to know what they are and are not willing to accept.  If a person knows themselves well enough to say that isn't something they can accept, why should they?  Due to the fact that is how other people think they should react?

In My opinion, people should make their own assessment of what they are willing to deal with in their lives and what they will not.  The idea of saying that they would date someone in a wheelchair to look good to others, when they really know inside that they couldn't deal with it, is only being hypocritical. 

If My husband were to have an accident tomorrow that would leave him paralyzed from the neck down, I wouldn't leave him over it.  However, if that would have been his condition when we first met, I can't say if things would have turned out the same.  His mobility would have been an issue that wasn't present in the way things really unfolded. 




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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 12:11:49 PM   
MaxsGirl


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From: The Arctic Circle
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

But why do they get sick? Why do they not recover spontaneously within two weeks as like in for instance measles? What sense is there in treating someone if they do not get better withing two weeks, as for example antibiotics do in case of a bacterial infection?

Why are the waiting rooms of not only psychiatrists but also of all physicians full and overflowing with patients instead of nearly empty? Can it be because them white coats have no idea what they are dealing with qua causes and how to treat and prevent them.


Because mental illness isn't like the flu or an infection.  It isn't something you acquire because of a germ.  You can no more grow back the missing (or malfunctioning) part of someone's brain chemistry than you can re-grow an amputated limb.  Think of psychiatric medication as a prosthetic - it can't truly replace what is missing, it can only enable the patient to function somewhat normally.  And just like a prosthetic, medications don't always "fit" right the first time, or even the fourth.  But it's even more tricky than that, because you can't see a psychiatric issue like you can a leg stump, so if the "fit" isn't right you have to guess at why, and somewhat blindly try other options until you find the right one.  The human mind and brain are far too complex for everyone's problems to be an easy fix.

quote:


What is worse: can it be that so many people are in a medically declining condition because of iatrogenic diseases?


I have no doubt that this is sometimes the problem, both because of the complexity of pschiatric conditions, and because doctors are human and will make mistakes no matter how skilled they are.  It's a sad fact, but one that can only be avoided so much.  Mistakes will always be made, failures will always occur.  I hope that the OP will not be counted among these, but only time will tell.  It could be that his perfect treatment is out there, but his practitioner just hasn't found it yet.

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 12:15:34 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy
We would jump all over someone if they said: "I wouldn't date someone in a wheelchair or someone who had cancer."  But yet it is perfectly acceptable to say "I won't date someone if they have a mental illness diagnosis."   There are many, many degrees of illness and ability to function. The OP makes far too sweeping a statement.

Some might.  I wouldn't.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a person to know what they are and are not willing to accept.  If a person knows themselves well enough to say that isn't something they can accept, why should they?  Due to the fact that is how other people think they should react?

In My opinion, people should make their own assessment of what they are willing to deal with in their lives and what they will not.  The idea of saying that they would date someone in a wheelchair to look good to others, when they really know inside that they couldn't deal with it, is only being hypocritical. 

If My husband were to have an accident tomorrow that would leave him paralyzed from the neck down, I wouldn't leave him over it.  However, if that would have been his condition when we first met, I can't say if things would have turned out the same.  His mobility would have been an issue that wasn't present in the way things really unfolded. 





I think perhaps I should clarify the point I was making--not so much against preferences about choosing a partner based on physical characteristics/abilities--but more so that there is definitely a greater stigma on mental illness vs. physical illness/disabilities.

So if someone says "I just can't date someone in a wheelchair because...[insert reason]"  I'm not challenging them on that.... but I would go so far to say that if that same person posted "I won't date people with x physical disabilities" that they would get far more criticism than someone who posts "I won't date someone with a mental illness."



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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 12:25:34 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy
I think perhaps I should clarify the point I was making--not so much against preferences about choosing a partner based on physical characteristics/abilities--but more so that there is definitely a greater stigma on mental illness vs. physical illness/disabilities.

So if someone says "I just can't date someone in a wheelchair because...[insert reason]"  I'm not challenging them on that.... but I would go so far to say that if that same person posted "I won't date people with x physical disabilities" that they would get far more criticism than someone who posts "I won't date someone with a mental illness."

I think you're probably correct on both points.  I do have to wonder if that root cause is stigma or because, in some cases, we're dealing with the unknown.  Just My opinion, but I don't think we're quite as evolved in treating mental disorders as we are in physical health.  That may have something to do with it.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Would mental illness bar a submissive from being pi... - 1/30/2011 12:31:45 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
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From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I think you're probably correct on both points.  I do have to wonder if that root cause is stigma or because, in some cases, we're dealing with the unknown.  Just My opinion, but I don't think we're quite as evolved in treating mental disorders as we are in physical health.  That may have something to do with it.


I also agree that it's a fear of the unknown - with a specific physical ailment or disability, you pretty much know what you're getting - a person can't walk, or can't do this or that, etc.

With mental illness, even the patient can have little or no real understanding as to precisely how their condition may affect their interaction with others; are they being “difficult” because they're difficult, or because they're depressed? Are they being sadistic because it brings them pleasure, or are they acting out something more sinister?

The golden question, for me at least, would be “does the person know what's wrong with them, and are they trying to do something about it?”. That said, I’ve been caught myself before, with girls who claimed one thing, but were actually another. Easy it ain’t.

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