Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays?

Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (Full Version)

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SlevinKelevra -> Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 8:57:11 AM)
Well, I have to admit I didn´t think Id be starting a thread here but I just had one of the funniest private messages ever.... Last week, my best friend´s son got into a fight at school. The little guy, who´s just turned 11 and is as nerdy and scrawny as Screech, from the Saved By The Bell series (yep, I´m old enough to have watched that show) outfought 3 bigger, meaner, older boys about 13 and 14, 3 grades higher, and sent them home with black eyes, broken noses, some serious hurting on their ribs and belly not to mention a bit of damage to their limbs. It wasn´t unfair, he got his own blows too and sucked up those punches and defended himself....I did invite him to ice-creams, arcades and a movie just because of it. The thing is, I am my friend´s guarding in the case he cannot attend to some duties as he is away at the platforms and I had to go and see the shrink of the school, a nice guy whom I really respect intellectually....but with whom I digress about raising kids. He just tried the dumbest possible thing in the world.....Dr. Feel-good here isn´t gay, or effeminate, you´d remember Frazier if you met him. He actually said "we must do some re-enactment therapy, some positive counseling and meditation and we must have them work together as friends on a common project". By that point I felt like telling the poor guy he wasted 5 years of college.....that was when he threw the bomb.... "Children have conflicts, but they shouldn´t fight, boys should not have to hit each other, use violence as it is a negative gender thing, and we must fight it to help them, men are not meant to fight to be men anymore, it is something to purge from our gender notions" Excuse me, but as much as I love peace and could follow the same steps that Ghandi, the Dalai Lama or even Jesus Christ himself would take if someone spat on their face and insulted them adding a bitch slap on the cheek by calling it a day and prsenting the other cheek (Now, I admit that I´d present the other but have my guard up to block his next blow even if I don´t intend to return it at all) I just can´t believe someone with testosterone in his bloodstream would say something like that. Now, I just post this to get an overview, to see if other people have encountered this same prejudice. I am sorry but it feels like it, since it sounds like that, and for what I see in some other people, this is very widespread, the world seems to look upon it as a bad thing you should keep away and under control, like alcoholism or such, that you have the XY chromosomes, secrete testosterone and are not afraid, know how to use it. I am not advocating for men to be like a macho chauvinist womanizing creature who objectifies women and resolves conflicts as a canevman feeling he´s got the biggest stick and entering pissing contets with every other male like 2 itbulls who cross paths on the same sidewalk, but please. We are men. Maybe we can be flawed because of our natural male drive, but I think that telling a kid that you are emasculating him before he even knows how to use them, I can point at Daniel Craig, Jason Statham, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, George Clooney, Sir Sean Connery, Chuck Norris (yep, that's a free one, take your best shot or fact at me) and such and tell a kid "Those are real manly men the way you should be: gentlemen, chilvalrius to women, courteous, protective, well-educated and mannered, peace-loving but able to kick ass when need be and stand up for what´s right no matter if ithey do it alone against a legion, no matter if they win or lose" and know I am steering him towards the right direction, the right side of the line that separates men, gentlemen, from crude idiots who act like dirty rabid street dogs and are mere males. That´s an idea that works, and this shrink, after asking me what movies he saw, actually had the nerve to say "Maybe the problem IS the masculine role model concept he´s being exposed to, you should try to get him to see other movies and not expose him to such movies or tv series until he´s at least 4 or 5 years older so he can judge" and I can only imagine that it means he´s stuck to watching Barney the Dinosaur and SpongeBob SquarePants until he figures out he´s supposed to like girls. What do you think ? I am supposed to give an answer this friday and I want to tell this guy to go to hell but try to get a testosterone prescription so he can learn what his mistake is on the way, it will not affect the kid´s grades or place him under any probation but I am really needing some good reasons to tell my buddy his kid´s in a school for sissies if that guy has a say on it and well, I mainly posted this thread to see if this is the same in other countries and well, I´d appreciate it if you could provide a nice subtle, veiled insult or comment to thro at this guy, sort of give me ammo....

Aylee -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:04:50 AM)
Total douche-bag for wanting to teach conflict resolution. Much better if the kid ends up in jail or dead from assault and battery. [8\|]

SlevinKelevra -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:07:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Total douche-bag for wanting to teach conflict resolution. Much better if the kid ends up in jail or dead from assault and battery. Miss Aylee, sorry my post wasn´t finished and I clicked on Ok too soon...anyways....I don´t have anything against working in offering solutions to conflict, but satanizing the fact he´s got some natural male tendencies, expressing it as such, is kind of a gener-bias, an anti-manliness statement from this shrink and yes, i inted to show him that his favorite heroes and role mdoels do avoid conflict and I carefully help my buddy raise the kid, who´s my Godson but calls me "uncle", learns to be the good guy, and last time I checked, good guys were not afraid of conflict when they had no other choice and ran out of ways to avoid it, so he shouldn´t feel guilty for being a boy

chubbysubbyguy -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:11:10 AM)
While they probably should be taught that men should shake hands and bury the ax after a fight, putting them through all of that pyshco-babble hippie crap with the reenactment therapy and the like is an utter waste of time and money for the schools. men fight, women fight. Fighting is part of being human. When I was growing up I was taught to walk away if I could, and if I couldn't put my opponent down hard and make sure they knew it was better for them to stay down. Edited section I didn't wind up in jail because god forbid i defended myself and stuck up for others when it was right, and I never had to go through what this shrink wants to put the kid through, got a couple of detentions, had to come to school for 4 hours on a saturday. I knew fighting was wrong, but sometimes necessary. I turned out all right, former Marine, then an Army Sergeant and now a college student.

SlevinKelevra -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:15:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chubbysubbyguy While they probably should be taught that men should shake hands and bury the ax after a fight, putting them through all of that pyshco-babble hippie crap with the reenactment therapy and the like is an utter waste of time and money for the schools. men fight, women fight. Fighting is part of being human. When I was growing up I was taught to walk away if I could, and if I couldn't put my opponent down hard and make sure they knew it was better for them to stay down. Amen brother..... I´d let him work with those boys on a common project if they weren´t little thugs beyond reason. Professional bullies if you ask me, soon, they´ll grow up to collect "protection" payments on their neighborhoods like the hoodlums they are growing up to be, but i do believe in shaking hands. I have boxed as an amateur and done MMA and we shake hands afterwards and have a drink after the night´s over, as friends, at least as co-workers, civil, decent and nice, and my "nephew", my godson knows that, he´s seen it after my fights and he knows I sometimes fight a buddy and hit hard, but that i do it fair and clean, and he doesn´t set up boxing matches with his play buddies at the park or go hurting nobody. The psycho-babble is not the thing that bothers me though, I just don´t like the concept this shrink handles "it´s a bad thing we are born with as men that we have testosterone and fight" sounds like a certain Austrian guy who decided all hebrew people had such a similar "original sin" and had to purge it out.....by purging them out.

Termyn8or -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:16:44 AM)
"I just can´t believe someone with testosterone in his bloodstream would say something like that. " Some apparently have a deficiency. The kid doesn't though. I'd go even farther, get him a copy of Bloodsport, a movie that predates him by over ten years. And I don't mean that flippntly, there is a chance that he will become a bully, and that is not a good thing. But to react to self defense that way is just wrong. What about the assailants ? If this kid needs therapy what of them ? They must need mood altering drugs to turn them into zombies or something. Remember the movie Will, based on the experiences of Gordon Liddy ? What did he say to the school officials when his kid got into a fight ? And surely noone thinks anyone would attack three larger opponents for no good reason. Even Billy Jack had to kick some ass sometimes. "They" want people to be spineless. And don't ask who "they" are, "they" reveal themselves quite readily. I agree with you 330%. T^T

chubbysubbyguy -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:19:24 AM)
The "It's a bad thing we were born men" concept sounds like something right out of Berkley and them looking for ways for a kinder gentler society. He needs to be reminded of the wolves at the door and that real men and Women are needed to keep people like him safe from the threats of reality..take him on a ride around the "hood" on a friday night so he can get a good look at the way the real world is.

NihilusZero -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:20:45 AM)
The presented attempt to reconcile the kids is naive and relatively flawed based on how children will psychologically react to other based on pre-defined cliques and groups. It could even incite more animosity. But that was a critique on his choice of method for conflict resolution, not his motivation to get to that end. The idea that the culture should continue to encourage a mentality of brawn over brains just follows from a view that physical toughness is sexier than intellectual prowess. Then again....taking a look at most of our social media, maybe I'm just in denial that our species can perhaps transcend its more ancient, instinctual habits.

Termyn8or -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:24:01 AM)
"maybe I'm just in denial that ou species can perhaps transcend its more ancient, instinctual habits. " I'm all for that. Let's hope someone lets us know if it ever happens. Until then we will have pugilistics (sp), martial arts and weapons. T^T

NihilusZero -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:24:04 AM)
I find it a bit disconcerting that it seems "manhood" is essentially being equated with the ability to throw a punch.

chubbysubbyguy -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:26:25 AM)
I'd like to think we need to foster a combination of both. I personally try and set exactly that example for my little brothers and other younger mail relatives. Yes, work out, learn to fight, be an athlete by all means, but before you go out and bench press for an hour, crack the books. I was in the ultimate brawn profession the Marine Infantry as younger man now I am an honor student. The mentality we need to foster is "try and fix it with words before destroying it with violence". Sorry I am rambling been awake now for nearly 30 hours with Research papers and Blizzard 2011. shuts his mouth now

YSG -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:30:32 AM)
It sounds to me like the little guy was defending himself. I would say he needs to be taught that that's ok, but you dont go looking for/picking fights. I think we have taken this "zero tolerance" idea way too far, to the point where we are teaching kids that you should just lay down and let people walk all over you. Kids fight, thats how they are. They dont have the mental development to talk it out calmly like most intelligent adults do.

SlevinKelevra -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:32:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "I just can´t believe someone with testosterone in his bloodstream would say something like that. " Some apparently have a deficiency. The kid doesn't though. I'd go even farther, get him a copy of Bloodsport, a movie that predates him by over ten years. And I don't mean that flippntly, there is a chance that he will become a bully, and that is not a good thing. But to react to self defense that way is just wrong. What about the assailants ? If this kid needs therapy what of them ? They must need mood altering drugs to turn them into zombies or something. Remember the movie Will, based on the experiences of Gordon Liddy ? What did he say to the school officials when his kid got into a fight ? And surely noone thinks anyone would attack three larger opponents for no good reason. Even Billy Jack had to kick some ass sometimes. "They" want people to be spineless. And don't ask who "they" are, "they" reveal themselves quite readily. I agree with you 330%. T^T Billy Jack...man that mvie was a classic. I know Bloodsport, but truth is, I don´t let him watch those yet. All he´s seen are old kung-fu classics from jackie Chan ( only those in which nobody dies or even bleeds), Power Ranges (all 14th series, LOL) and Ninja Turtles. For God´s sakes, this kid´s nice, good hearted, the most violent game I have seen him play is Tomb Raider and I admit it, WWE, which he watches with his dad or with his aunt. He´s not going to turn into a bully, trust me, doesn´t have it in him considering it´s very hard to get him to the point of fighting and he´s normally the bullied one. I take him to meditate, watch the wildlife, he loves sciences, astronomy and I recently got him an small microscope, optical one up to 1000X lenses for him to play around (yep, nerdy, what can i say, I was like that too, still am, I am an engineer after all, LOL) and well, I am safe saying that he´d never turn that leaf. I mean, kids walk a fine line, they can become bullies or victims, some alsh out back at the bullies Columbine style, or transform into a meaner version as a way to balance things and obtain release through retribution. Let´s just talk about the regular run-of-the-mill kid entering his teens or well within them. They have to be civil, polite, decent and respect the rules in a wolrd where music, fashion, tv and magazines portray images of successful people who ebcome role models so to speak, breaking every single one of those rules. And then the school system and society is full of bullying predators who just troll the world looking for a new target for a joke, a new punching bag to vent off, use as their own pressure release valve or feelgood button. We should teach positive role models. I grew up watching Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal, and a bunch of others, saw movies with Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Willis, and I didn´t become a bully, nor a victim, there were both in my life, and nobody ever gave me even an hour of detention or a note to bring home for standing up for the victimized ones and fighting the bullies. Shit, even the victims got help from the Phys. Ed trainers and coaches to bulk up, learn some defense moves, sign up for wrestling or boxing and karate gyms and stop being the victims and yet, we all ostracized the bullies and it worked, bullies either changed their ways or failed miserably in school, life in general and all.... isn´t it the way is supposed to be ?

SlevinKelevra -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:35:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YSG It sounds to me like the little guy was defending himself. I would say he needs to be taught that that's ok, but you dont go looking for/picking fights. I think we have taken this "zero tolerance" idea way too far, to the point where we are teaching kids that you should just lay down and let people walk all over you. Kids fight, thats how they are. They dont have the mental development to talk it out calmly like most intelligent adults do. God bless you man, that´s my idea. I guess that in a way kids are so opressed by rules and "zero tolerance" shit that if I was onenowadays, Id be feelíng soft of like Edward Norton´s character on the movie Fight Club...doesn´t mean that because the world is choking and emasculating me, i will rebel and that to do so I am going to start any boxing clubs that turn into a Project Mayhem organization and become Tyler Durden to force the world to be as I want it to be, just means I am going to have to learn that it´s a part of me to be aggressive and assertive, to fight back and then I must realize it does give me a good boost like nitro in a car, I will then have to accept it, control it and use it to become better, as a person as well as in the material world, using it as a tool to use carefully, not to lose myself in my impulses like a pit dog.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:39:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero I find it a bit disconcerting that it seems "manhood" is essentially being equated with the ability to throw a punch. Having the ability doesn't mean you are necessarily going to do so. I was nationally ranked in a coupla of martial arts. Did I go around hurting folks? Nope. The only time I ever did it was a guy that was 80# or so heavier that was abusing his gf in public. I calmly said "The reason you hit women is you're too much of a pussy to take a man on" so he jumped me. The next 10 minutes was FUN. People dont attack the strong. Show strength and you won't be attacked. The strong dont bully others. Only weaklings bully. I always attempted to defuse a situation rather than let it turn into a scrap. 99.9% of the time it worked famously. The reason is that if I had ever turned myself loose, there would have been severe bodily injury or death as a result and that could have resulted in time in the greybar hotel. The strong and confident dont bully. They protect the weak.

JohnWarren -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:44:13 AM)
I'd have loved to have been there if the shrink tried to hand off that shit to my old DI. Instead of citing movie characters, you might ask where this country would have been without George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Jack Pershing, George Patton, Dan Daley, Lewis Puller and Colin Powell. Of course, if he doesn't recognize the names, it will confirm a lot.

chubbysubbyguy -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:49:17 AM)
The answer to where would this country be without men like that? There would be no country.

Termyn8or -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:54:33 AM)
I am radical, but not quite insane. In another post someone said that teacher's mistakes teach the kids. Maybe it's time for that. He can go to this therapy and do one of a few things. He could reason with the good "doctor" and ask him what he would do if someone attacked him. Lay there and wait for help ? Help from who ? Eliminate the fight and take away all guns and physical training from the cops and security personnel. Now the bullies will simply be watched until they get tired, and 100 people can coax them into a jail cell right ? Schools do not teach the facts of life. Also the kid can go with the program, put up with shit the rest of his life and die miserable if the program(ming) is successful. Or he could feign compliance and really learn how things are. The most successful students I've ever met were taught to seek the truth, but most often just give the answers that are sought. You really do get along better that way. Of course if you've been in the military I don't have to tell you this. It's prevalevnt in any structured environment. Actually I am against school altogether, but there are no viable alternatives right now. It is wrong not to teach the young. It just doesn't take the form we expect sometimes. Just curious, what happened to the other kids ? Are the instigators and (would be) victims of assault and battery now treated the same ? Is justice that obsolete ? Possibly. I thought I had seen everything until one of those court shows on TV not long ago. I don't really watch TV these days but I am exposed to it. In this case the plaintiff was suing for a watch he lost in someone's house AS HE WAS ROBBING HIM ! If this is not what we have come to, it is certainly where we are headed. Look at the trends. What's more I hope the bullies felt really good after one scrawny kid beat all their asses. I hope it shows that the bully/gang mentality is not the right one. I think your friend's kid did more teaching than learning in that episode, or at least hope so. T^T

Icarys -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:55:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero I find it a bit disconcerting that it seems "manhood" is essentially being equated with the ability to throw a punch. How about the ability to defend ones self physically as well as the ability to resolve it through words first if possible. I think both are of equal importance depending on the situations.

Aylee -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 9:56:47 AM)
You might explain that your gdson is 11 and his balls have not dropped yet. Which means he is not producing an overabundance of testosterone. If for any reason he is producing this extra testosterone, then there is a medical problem with his hormones that should be addressed. You might also ask him what he is prepared to do to ensure that your gdson and other children are not going to be bullied or attacked. Where were the adults at the school when this happened? How long has the bullying been going on? You should also ask the guy when the RIGHT time to fight is. I am somewhat concerned about the damage inflicted on the other three boys. Broken noses? Ribs? That is pretty serious and could have legal ramifications. So suggestions on what you can do for your g*dson: Enroll him in martial arts. They emphasize conflict resolution and when and when not to hit. Pay attention to what movies and tv shows he IS watching. He is 11 and you need to make sure that he can put into context what he is seeing. This means watching them with him and talking about it. Discuss what his options are for the next time something happens. How can this be stopped before the first fist is swung? Can he keep it from going that far? Discuss the things that are important to him. Which of these things are worth hurting someone else for? Consider what kind of language and behavior YOU display around him. Do you say things like, "I should kick his ass," or other such things? Are you polite and courteous or do you try and intimidate others? What kind of attitude and behavior do you want him to be modeling? Discuss what "being a man" means. To you and to him. Discuss the concept of self-control. And why it is important. Discuss that feelings and emotions are human. There is no such thing as "girl" feelings and "boy" feelings. The important thing is how we act on those feelings. Discuss that anger never helps a situation because it keeps you from thinking clearly. The shrink is right, he is 11 and should not have to fight. However, he should not feel shame or regret because he is male. Humans will be human and the important things is to move forward and not live in the past. I will also point out that all of your comments about "sissies" and "emasculating" suggest that you think these boys are acting like girls. Which suggests that being a girl is a bad thing. This is at the same time that you are upset that this shrink has suggested being male is a bad thing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK543f0_UKc "Promise me, son, not to do the things I've done. Walk away from trouble if you can. It won't mean you're weak if you turn the other cheek. I hope you're old enough to understand: Son, you don't have to fight to be a man!"

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