RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (Full Version)

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chubbysubbyguy -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:02:29 AM)

But that song DOES end like this:


"I promised you, dad, not to do the things you've done.
I walk away from trouble when I can.
Now please don't think I'm weak, I didn't turn the other cheek,
And papa, I sure hope you understand:

Sometimes you gotta fight when you're a man".

so really its a good piece of advice through and through I guess.

Also as for not needing to fight at 11, I was in 5 fights growing up and three of them occurred before my eleventh birthday, mainly because I had yet to have my growth spurt so the older kids saw an easy target to take lunch money from.




windchymes -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:04:08 AM)

It isn't just in the schools with kids. Many employers have taken the "nicey-nicey-all-the-time" approach to management in dealing with employee conflicts. Even if you're simply defending yourself verbally from the worst instigator, if management steps in, the philosophy is that the worst guy maybe isn't that bad, maybe it's just your own perception, you need to be more tolerable, we don't want them to feel bad, maybe you can encourage them somehow, blah blah blah. The focus is not on finding out the truth or getting to the bottom of things, it's on not hurting anybody's feelings.

What I repeatedly see is the worst guy walking away feeling vindicated and rewarded and the guy who just defended himself feeling like he just wasted his time and silently harbors bitter feelings. The worst guy just repeats the negative behavior, the good guys just suck it up and don't complain because they know it will do no good, and management pats themselves on the back and thinks they've done a bang-up job because no one's coming to them with complaints anymore.





Termyn8or -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:06:13 AM)

Ay, I think girls should know how to fight. If I had a daughter she would be in karaate by four, and later move on to jujitsu, judo, a few others. (perhaps dux ryu if I can find a place that teaches it) And NEVER get a blackbelt, EVER. Because then your arm is registered as a deadly weapon.

T^T




Aylee -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:08:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chubbysubbyguy

But that song DOES end like this:



No kidding. If you read my entire post you will see several references to WHEN it is appropriate to fight.

And I still say an 11 year old should NOT have to fight older children at school.




Termyn8or -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:09:59 AM)

Kids shouldn't have to fight in school at all, except for physical training. But alas this is Earth.

T^T




chubbysubbyguy -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:12:31 AM)

I'm sorry it seemed like I was trying to disagree with you, my response was not as well put together as it seemed in my exhausted mind. "Pretty good advice through and through" was in reference to your post.




Aylee -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:13:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Ay, I think girls should know how to fight. If I had a daughter she would be in karate by four, and later move on to jujitsu, judo, a few others. (perhaps dux ryu if I can find a place that teaches it) And NEVER get a blackbelt, EVER. Because then your arm is registered as a deadly weapon.

T^T

I am pretty sure that most of what I mentioned can apply to any child. I was really just focusing on the 11 year old boy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

The focus is not on finding out the truth or getting to the bottom of things, it's on not hurting anybody's feelings.



Because heaven forfend we not like someone. I really want to move to this unicorns and rainbows world so many people seem to believe in.




Aylee -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:15:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chubbysubbyguy

I'm sorry it seemed like I was trying to disagree with you, my response was not as well put together as it seemed in my exhausted mind. "Pretty good advice through and through" was in reference to your post.

Well thank you. I thought that you were referring to just the song.




windchymes -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:28:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

The focus is not on finding out the truth or getting to the bottom of things, it's on not hurting anybody's feelings.



Because heaven forfend we not like someone. I really want to move to this unicorns and rainbows world so many people seem to believe in.


Every time I walk by the boss's doorway, I want to throw glitter on it. And little confetti hearts....[;)]




Icarys -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:29:52 AM)

quote:

Because heaven forfend we not like someone. I really want to move to this unicorns and rainbows world so many people seem to believe in.

You might wanna get a plane ticket back to reality as well. Those pretty rainbows have blinded common sense it seems.

In a perfect world we could all talk it out like "civilized" human beings with nice non-snarky and smart arse comments but this isn't Kansas is it, Dorothy. Toto will on occasion need to be let off the leash in the real world.




mnottertail -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:30:11 AM)

Springsteen has an actual office?




CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:31:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlevinKelevra

Last week, my best friend´s son got into a fight at school. The little guy, who´s just turned 11 and is as nerdy and scrawny as Screech, from the Saved By The Bell series (yep, I´m old enough to have watched that show) outfought 3 bigger, meaner, older boys about 13 and 14, 3 grades higher, and sent them home with black eyes, broken noses, some serious hurting on their ribs and belly not to mention a bit of damage to their limbs. It wasn´t unfair, he got his own blows too and sucked up those punches and defended himself....I did invite him to ice-creams, arcades and a movie just because of it.

That´s an idea that works, and this shrink, after asking me what movies he saw, actually had the nerve to say "Maybe the problem IS the masculine role model concept he´s being exposed to, you should try to get him to see other movies and not expose him to such movies or tv series until he´s at least 4 or 5 years older so he can judge" .

What do you think ?


Let me get this straight.  One scrawny little kid had to defend himself against three huge bullies who had the intent to beat the cr*p out of him...and HE is in trouble? 

The school has no problem with a three against one fight?  This is fair to them?  What does this counselor expect the boy to do next time, beg to be left alone while the other boys kick his teeth in?

The school counselor...does the guy actually have a degree big enough to handle this, or did he walk in off the street into the position of counselor with very little training?  Somehow I don't see a school affording a qualified shrink on it's payroll.

My son is autistic and I had lots of run ins with the school and their asinine poilicies.  One time another kid...IN THE CLASSROOM WHILE I WAS THERE..was pulling a girl's hair hard enough to make her fall to the ground and kept biting my son.  Yes, drawing blood.  One teacher and two aids were in the special ed kindergarten class...did any intervene?  No.  The girl's parent and I kept having to step in and rescue our kids.  Did they have one of those aids watch that violent kid better?  Nope.  They merely told him in a sweet voice not to do that, "...because that's ugly."

My kid had to go to the doctor after school and get a shot, and it took about twenty minutes to have dried blood gently swabbed away.  Thank God he didn't need stitches for the three bites to his head, face, and ear.

Now comes the school's solution at my son's IEP meeting.  Yeah, I brought a tape recorder to hear this.  I was told several times that they will change my son's trainings to handle this, and refused to address the real issue.  In the end, when they thought they had railroaded me, I told them what they were going to do.  They were going to get someone one on one for that boy to ensure he doesn't bite or rip out any more hair.  If they don't and this happens one more time, I am going to sue the living cr*p out of them and even go so far as to take away all of their houses and cars.

The next day...the boy had someone provided for him who held his hand or hands most of the time, and this lasted for the entire school year.  Violence ended.

Schools are stupid and will try to get away with blaming the victim.

If this happened on the way home from school, isn't the school responsible?  If they are not, then this was an after school activity that is none of their business.  If this happened at a time when the school was responsible for the health and safety of the kids...how come they let three much older and larger kids engage in a rumble with one scrawny little kid? 

I wonder if the parent could go to the police and swear out a juvenile complaint over the bullying.  One on one fights can be fair, but three against one...nope.  I'm glad the little guy cleaned their clocks. 

My neighbor would be evil enough to call the local newspaper and see if an article will be done over bullying, and about the new and improved steps the school takes to address this issue...and that the answer seems to be to take away all those Rambo movies.

I would have taken him out for icecream too.

...and if for any reason that counselor ever ends up in prison for even a short while, I wonder how good that "don't fight back" policy will protect the virginity of his bottom...




Aylee -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:34:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Because heaven forfend we not like someone. I really want to move to this unicorns and rainbows world so many people seem to believe in.

You might wanna get a plane ticket back to reality as well. Those pretty rainbows have blinded common sense it seems.

In a perfect world we could all talk it out like "civilized" human beings with nice non-snarky and smart arse comments but this isn't Kansas is it, Dorothy. Toto will on occasion need to be let off the leash in the real world.



Yes this IS Kansas. Where are you living? Also, there is a leash law in this city so no, Toto may not be allowed off of it when outside the house.

And just what is wrong with not liking someone?




Icarys -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:42:54 AM)

Okay, Dorothy. Whatever you say. I used Toto BTW because it reminds me of you..some little dog yapping and yapping. I find it funny you're touting tolerance when you've got heartless bitch tattooed under your icon.

Nothing wrong with not liking someone..except when it starts to be outwardly manifesting itself in unprovoked ways as in bullying.

For the record...the laws occasionally suck and need to be bent in my opinion..especially when jumped on by 3 punks..I'm also glad he cleaned their clocks.


Ps....You live in the United States of Kansas now do you? :>




chubbysubbyguy -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 10:57:30 AM)

I don't know, alot of what Aylee says makes sense. Would you prefer to live in a world where we went back to beating each other with clubs over a piece of meat, or a world with a little tolerance and fighting as a last resort.




Icarys -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 11:02:16 AM)

quote:

or a world with a little tolerance and fighting as a last resort.

We have that now and I'm fine with that.

I will add this: I'm in slight agreement with wind..




Aylee -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 11:21:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Okay, Dorothy. Whatever you say. I used Toto BTW because it reminds me of you..some little dog yapping and yapping. I find it funny you're touting tolerance when you've got heartless bitch tattooed under your icon.

Nothing wrong with not liking someone..except when it starts to be outwardly manifesting itself in unprovoked ways as in bullying.

For the record...the laws occasionally suck and need to be bent in my opinion..especially when jumped on by 3 punks..I'm also glad he cleaned their clocks.



What gave you the idea that I thought the 11 year old was in the wrong?

I never said that violence does not solve anything. I said that anger clouds thinking.

Is it because I said that he should talk to the kid about what things are important? And when is something important enough to hurt someone else?

I am sorry that you feel that way but I think that there are times in all of our lives where we must say, "Here I stand, I can do no other." And that place is going to be different for everyone. However, an understanding of where that is and how you got there is important. It is part of a person's value system.

It sounds as if this school may have a bully problem. The kid should have a chance to work through some of this before the next confrontation. And I would bet dollars to doughnuts that there WILL be another one.

Discussing the kind of person he wants to be will also help him in not becoming a bully himself.

I am sure this kid has lots of feelings going on. G*dfather is saying one thing, the school counselor is saying another, and popular culture has mixed messages. He needs and should be allowed a framework to put all of this in.

As far as the liking people goes. I am sick of this insane-vein-popping-determination that we all need to be BFFs. I see nothing wrong with disliking something. I do see something wrong with being an asshole.

Being a Heartless Bitch isn't about stepping on other people, or reality TV-style sabotage antics. Its about working hard for what you want, and knowing when to stand up for what you deserve. Its not about demoralizing others; its about self-empowerment. Its not about being arrogant; its about displaying your confidence and intellect as a badge of pride. Its not asserting any inherent superiority or self-entitlement, but recognizing your own self-worth and value.

quote:

Ps....You live in the United States of Kansas now do you? :>

Well, right now I think that I have been transported to the Ice Planet Hoth.

Yes, I do live in Kansas. In the United States. And I have no idea where you get "United States of Kansas" as the comments were directed at an imaginary world.




kalikshama -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 1:30:07 PM)

quote:

I was nationally ranked in a coupla of martial arts. Did I go around hurting folks? Nope. The only time I ever did it was a guy that was 80# or so heavier that was abusing his gf in public. I calmly said "The reason you hit women is you're too much of a pussy to take a man on" so he jumped me. The next 10 minutes was FUN.


[sm=cheering.gif]




Icarys -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 2:38:50 PM)

quote:

What gave you the idea that I thought the 11 year old was in the wrong?

Do you think he was in the right?

quote:

I never said that violence does not solve anything. I said that anger clouds thinking.

but you said this below..how could you say "I never said it doesn't solve anything" then jump on this guy for teaching it as part of the kids tools for life..Kinda fucked logic there.

quote:

Total douche-bag for wanting to teach conflict resolution.

Much better if the kid ends up in jail or dead from assault and battery.

--------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Being a Heartless Bitch isn't about stepping on other people, or reality TV-style sabotage antics. Its about working hard for what you want, and knowing when to stand up for what you deserve. Its not about demoralizing others; its about self-empowerment. Its not about being arrogant; its about displaying your confidence and intellect as a badge of pride. Its not asserting any inherent superiority or self-entitlement, but recognizing your own self-worth and value.

That sure does make being a heartless bitch sound a whole lot better...Too bad it's bullshit to make yourself feel better when you do actually step on others..Ya know..like calling someone a douche-bag.

Just take your tired ass on down the road, Dorothy and your little dog ToTo to..try your best to keep your feet on the ground willya..this traveling to other planets and worlds of rainbows isn't good entirely for the psyche if you can't get back to earth.

Otherwise..I wish you a happy trip. I've got shit to do.[:D]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcYsO890YJY




DesFIP -> RE: Man Up !!!Are kids being taught NOT to do that nowadays? (2/2/2011 2:46:05 PM)

3 grades older and ganging up on him? My response to the school in situations such as this is that since they failed to protect this child from being bullied, they must take the blame for him having to defend himself. Where were the teachers, hall monitors, lunch monitors while this child was being attacked?

The three bullies do need therapy, the child who defended himself does not.

You also need to get from this kid how many times he's had to run from them before, who else they've bullied and for how long has the school been ignoring this behavior. The school is allowing a hostile atmosphere where a child is too afraid to learn and can be sued for this. The school needs to institute a zero bullying policy and start enforcing it for a change.




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