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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/5/2011 3:48:04 PM   
lally2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I don't see my relationship as different at all. It's actually very traditional...man as head of household, he makes the decisions.

How much more traditional can you get???

I don't choose my relationships based on kink. I choose them on personality and chemistry.





I hear that a lot, I'm not convinced


possibly because youre engine is kink driven entirely.  you are a kinkster, which is great, fine, but dont even try to reason on something you do not comprehend. 

.............. and i wont try to convince you:)

< Message edited by lally2 -- 2/5/2011 4:01:59 PM >

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/5/2011 3:51:01 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

It's an enslavement to their own need that causes them to seek another to use that need to their mutual benefit



if this were the case all slave-types would be with someone right now.  it would not matter a jot who they were with, just so long as theyre need to feel enslaved was being met.

the fact that this is not so throws youre theory out of the equation.

I am in agreement with this


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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/5/2011 3:56:07 PM   
osf


Posts: 3288
Joined: 10/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I don't see my relationship as different at all. It's actually very traditional...man as head of household, he makes the decisions.

How much more traditional can you get???

I don't choose my relationships based on kink. I choose them on personality and chemistry.





I hear that a lot, I'm not convinced


possibly because youre engine is kink driven entirely.  you are a kinkster, which is great, fine, but dont even try to feel convinced on something you do not comprehend.

.............. and i wont try to convince you:)


it's all well to seek out a personality but i see mostly the seeking out of personalities that have a dominant or submissive tendency

I never claim it's always based on a particular kink, though that is often true

d/s relationships can be devoid of kink




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i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/5/2011 3:58:09 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
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Status: offline 		Consent is a form of choice.
Consent does not take away free will.
And the irony of this?
Even if one consents to have no free will this does not take free will away.
Every slave, every submissives (without question) begins a onsensual relationship in full knowledge that they are vhoosing to consent,
However there  are no chains, there are no walls or prison keys, or tithe that ulktimately take away free will.
When it is yime to release oneself as a slave then it is time.
The possibility of one being able to release oneself often enables a slave to go beyond what they ever dreamed possible in terms of self-negation, bearing of pain and fortitude of service.
But since this happens ultimately within the frammework of consent it also happens within a framework of free will.


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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 7:06:20 AM   
darkenchantment


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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

on the choice matter, you may have the choice of who and if you serve but do you have a choice on having the desire/need to serve?


I would say that in my experience, no, one does not have choice about having the desire/need to serve as a slave. It is something that seems to just be there. Whether one understands it or not, or acts upon it or not, is of course another matter. Some people with a slave mentality may never become a slave to a master or mistress; they may express their desire for service through voluntary work, for example; or via total committment to their profession or vanilla relationship. They may choose for themselves a genuinely abusive vanilla partner. They may never put their deeply felt desire/need into words as such; but the expression in one form or another is still likely to be there.

As for becoming a slave in bdsm terms, that is really a choice about how one expresses that in built need. I must be honest - always a good thing to be, as my old university tutor used to say! - and say that I have known people give themselves as slaves without adequate forethought, and end up with what I would regard as bad and genuinely abusive masters or mistresses. I believe that it is important for a slave to recognise that they have the desire to give themselves in service to another, but do have the right to find a master or mistress who will appreciate what they are offering, and indeed treat them as they deserve. I think it is a common fantasy of slaves, concerning being genuinely used and abused, but the reality of this is far different from the fantasy. In my opinion, and I know some will disagree, a good slave deserves a good master or mistress, and they have the right and perhaps also the duty to look until they find one. It is common for a real slave to say 'All I want to do is serve, and it doesn't matter whom or how I am treated' . In some, I think the minority, of cases, that may be true. But I think for the majority, there are feelings and desires concerning the manner in which your ideal master or mistress will interact with you; and it is well, and fully acceptable to negotiate these before ever moving to the level of ownership. As the master or mistress has cetain expectations and preferences on the way they want their slave to look, act and serve them, so too does the slave have the right to similar preferences at the pre-ownership stage. Afterwards there should, in my opinion, be the justified expectation that both owner and slave will continue to behave within these previously agreed and accepted parameters, and this is often the purpose of the slave contract.

A good slave is a very valuable commodity, and to be treated with the appropriate respect for the gift of service which they give, and for making it possible for their master or mistress to be able to express their desires in real time.

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Peace and happiness is the way.

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 8:30:18 AM   
LadyRian


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Status: offline 		I can tell you the difference between a slave and a sub, and a switch and a Dom. About 5 hours. 

Seriously, as I see it, a "slave" has no rights, except that which an owner gives them. No right to non consent. This would apply to slaves, such as the slaves of Sudan and Mauritania, and the historical definition of slavery as the world has known it for thousands of years. "Slave" as we use the term is similar, but very different.

To me, a slave  (as far as BDSM goes) is one who has given their consent to serve, and have consented to turn their power over to their 'Mistress/Master".  The consent is integral, and it's the core of the issue. What we've done, is taken the term "Slave" and assigned an equally applicable but slightly different meaning to it, when discussing it in terms of BDSM.  

< Message edited by LadyRian -- 2/6/2011 8:33:54 AM >

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 10:25:36 AM   
happylittlepet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkenchantment
I would say that in my experience, no, one does not have choice about having the desire/need to serve as a slave.
(snip)
A good slave is a very valuable commodity, and to be treated with the appropriate respect for the gift of service which they give, and for making it possible for their master or mistress to be able to express their desires in real time.


If there is no choice about one's need to serve as a slave, is service a gift, and added to that, a gift that deserves respect?

If slavery is a need, then the reason a slave serves is to decrease the discomfort that not satisfying that need gives.
Just like eating will decrease the need for food.

If this is the case then a slave is not serving the Master, but the Master is an essential part that the slave needs to decrease her discomfort.


If slavery is a need, is there an equivalent need in the person on the other side, or is it just a convenient side effect for a Master that service is the inevitable result of the need for slavery ?


< Message edited by happylittlepet -- 2/6/2011 10:26:21 AM >

_____________________________

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Simple religion:
There is no need for temples,
No need for complicated philosophies
My brain and my heart are my temples
My philosophy is kindness (DL)

'There's a fire burning in my heart'

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 11:01:53 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf
With that is mind what is your idea on the differences between that and slave as you think of it?
Pretty much everything. When I used the word "slave", it was a synonym for TPE. I didn't really have scenes from "Roots" in my head. In that context, Carol is my wife, not my slave.

quote:

What would keep this person bound to their owner?

Uh.. the same way I make her do anything else???? dominance? Is this a trick question?

quote:

That's the thing, is it fully a choice?

For Carol and I, the extremity of TPE is a choice but the framework of D/s is not. Neither of us can be something other than what we are. As the dominant personality, I can change the "volume" of the D/s anywhere between 8 and 10. I cannot make it 2. For Carol, it wasn't a choice at all. I'm the one who decides how much D/s we have and whether or not it goes to "100%". I'm also the one who decides whether concepts like "ownership" have any place.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 11:22:16 AM   
happylittlepet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
You're cleverly teetering on the brink of a philosophical discussion about the existence (or lack thereof) of free will.

Your question is actually incredibly poignant, but I doubt the discussion will actually delve beyond the fact that we inevitably have to presume we function with genuine autonomy.

I question how much actuall free will we have versus how much we think we have


This is the core of the matter and it would be interesting to see some responses to this.

The possibilities:

we think we are not free, and we are not =>  thought reflects reality
this seems to be mutually exclusive with:
we think we are free, and we are => thought reflects reality
(maybe it only matters what we think we are, because that will impact our behavior, or
maybe being free and not being free are the same thing - if that is the case, it is no longer necessary to consider either, and just accept that it is what it is).

2 possible inconsistencies:
we think we are not free, while we actually are => we miss out on exercising that freedom
we think we are free, while we actually are not => we are deluding ourselves

And then there is how reality can play out:
Even though I want to do X, I choose to forgo X because the effect that doing X will have on person B.
I exercised my free will, and didn't get what I initially wanted. Yet I wanted X less, because of it's effect.
It then seems inconsistent to not be content with the end result, namely that I didn't do X, which is the result of
exercising free will. This begs the question whether exercising one's free will, will always gets one what one wants?

But what happens when I have a need?
If I start with a need, e.g. for food,
do I have another choice but to eat? Sure, not eat, which will ultimately lead to death.
If that is not an acceptable option, I will choose to eat. Is that a free choice?

If I assume that a need to serve exists,
then the discomfort of that need will go away when I serve.
Is that a free choice?
What if the need to serve is suppressed until someone is selected who I deem 'worthy' to be served?
If a need can be suppressed, is it really a need?

Or is the 'need to serve' actually a surplus of 'submissive attitude' which prevents the presence of 'dominant attitude'?
If so, then 'submissive attitude' is present all the time, and might respond to any situation in which dominance is displayed.
Is that free choice?

Now add a partner to the mix:
if a relationship exists, the choice to make the other happy is a free choice right?
or is it a necessity for the relationship to thrive?
if it is a necessity, am I free to choose?
if it is not a necessity, why will I choose to make the other happy, except for selfish reasons?

Or is it what it is and do we do what we do because it feels good and/or has the desired result, regardless of the concepts of free will and choice etc.?









< Message edited by happylittlepet -- 2/6/2011 11:23:30 AM >

_____________________________

There are no rules, there is only compassion.

Simple religion:
There is no need for temples,
No need for complicated philosophies
My brain and my heart are my temples
My philosophy is kindness (DL)

'There's a fire burning in my heart'

(in reply to osf)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 11:35:05 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
You're cleverly teetering on the brink of a philosophical discussion about the existence (or lack thereof) of free will.

Heh... I'd settle for a crisp definition of both "free" and "will" before we even start combining the two. Honestly I haven't been able to make much sense of either of those two words despite almost 2 years now pondering them.

quote:

Your question is actually incredibly poignant, but I doubt the discussion will actually delve beyond the fact that we inevitably have to presume we function with genuine autonomy.
Really? Inevitably? Huh. Not in my little corner of reality. There is no part of me that is autonomous from Carol or vice versa... at least... no part that I know of. If I did find such a part, I'd excise it ruthlessly from either her or myself. I cannot remember the last time I considered anything at all without considering it's impact on Carol... yes, even trivial minor things. Once I've understood those implications, they in turn will profoundly shape my own opinion and desire which in turn forms my end "decisions". I'm not personally aware of any way I could "choose" to stop doing this. Heck, even if I COULD somehow choose to stop it, I never would. So where, exactly, is my "genuine autonomy"??

The relationship I have built with Carol is not founded on autonomy and it has no place for "self". Every now and then we stumble upon lingerings bits of self-ness that we toss overboard like the excess baggage they are.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NihilusZero)
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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 11:48:37 AM   
osf


Posts: 3288
Joined: 10/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
You're cleverly teetering on the brink of a philosophical discussion about the existence (or lack thereof) of free will.

Your question is actually incredibly poignant, but I doubt the discussion will actually delve beyond the fact that we inevitably have to presume we function with genuine autonomy.

I question how much actuall free will we have versus how much we think we have


This is the core of the matter and it would be interesting to see some responses to this.

The possibilities:

we think we are not free, and we are not =>  thought reflects reality
this seems to be mutually exclusive with:
we think we are free, and we are => thought reflects reality
(maybe it only matters what we think we are, because that will impact our behavior, or
maybe being free and not being free are the same thing - if that is the case, it is no longer necessary to consider either, and just accept that it is what it is).

2 possible inconsistencies:
we think we are not free, while we actually are => we miss out on exercising that freedom
we think we are free, while we actually are not => we are deluding ourselves

And then there is how reality can play out:
Even though I want to do X, I choose to forgo X because the effect that doing X will have on person B.
I exercised my free will, and didn't get what I initially wanted. Yet I wanted X less, because of it's effect.
It then seems inconsistent to not be content with the end result, namely that I didn't do X, which is the result of
exercising free will. This begs the question whether exercising one's free will, will always gets one what one wants?

But what happens when I have a need?
If I start with a need, e.g. for food,
do I have another choice but to eat? Sure, not eat, which will ultimately lead to death.
If that is not an acceptable option, I will choose to eat. Is that a free choice?

If I assume that a need to serve exists,
then the discomfort of that need will go away when I serve.
Is that a free choice?
What if the need to serve is suppressed until someone is selected who I deem 'worthy' to be served?
If a need can be suppressed, is it really a need?

Or is the 'need to serve' actually a surplus of 'submissive attitude' which prevents the presence of 'dominant attitude'?
If so, then 'submissive attitude' is present all the time, and might respond to any situation in which dominance is displayed.
Is that free choice?

Now add a partner to the mix:
if a relationship exists, the choice to make the other happy is a free choice right?
or is it a necessity for the relationship to thrive?
if it is a necessity, am I free to choose?
if it is not a necessity, why will I choose to make the other happy, except for selfish reasons?

Or is it what it is and do we do what we do because it feels good and/or has the desired result, regardless of the concepts of free will and choice etc.?










I,m inclined to believe we have an innate pattern of primary responses to situations such as modes sexual expression and thought patterns to social situations such as are we more progressive or Conservative in outlook

not always realizing where these responses come from we rationalize them as free and considered thought and choice

one of my all time favorite lines along this vein is in "inherit the wind" "do you think about the things you do think about"

i don't think we are totally deterministic in our thinking or no progress would ever be made, we can rise above our natures




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i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 12:31:04 PM   
LadyRian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf




I,m inclined to believe we have an innate pattern of primary responses to situations such as modes sexual expression and thought patterns to social situations such as are we more progressive or Conservative in outlook

not always realizing where these responses come from we rationalize them as free and considered thought and choice

one of my all time favorite lines along this vein is in "inherit the wind" "do you think about the things you do think about"

i don't think we are totally deterministic in our thinking or no progress would ever be made, we can rise above our natures






I agree with you on this. However, this brings to fore a question: How is progress made, and how does one rise above one's nature if one is deriving benefit from remaining "regressive", and "unrisen"?  And what constitutes these conditions anyway? If someone is deriving personal benefit from their behaviour, no matter what it is, where's the impetus for change?


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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 1:19:44 PM   
osf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRian

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf




I,m inclined to believe we have an innate pattern of primary responses to situations such as modes sexual expression and thought patterns to social situations such as are we more progressive or Conservative in outlook

not always realizing where these responses come from we rationalize them as free and considered thought and choice

one of my all time favorite lines along this vein is in "inherit the wind" "do you think about the things you do think about"

i don't think we are totally deterministic in our thinking or no progress would ever be made, we can rise above our natures






I agree with you on this. However, this brings to fore a question: How is progress made, and how does one rise above one's nature if one is deriving benefit from remaining "regressive", and "unrisen"?  And what constitutes these conditions anyway? If someone is deriving personal benefit from their behaviour, no matter what it is, where's the impetus for change?



homo sapiens I think are on a two track evolutionary progression, physical and mental (ways of seeing and thinking about the world) which is why we are sometimes confused about other cultures.

when caesar wanted to invade gaul he just went ahead and invaded , he didn't need an excuse to justify it to the world. when hitler wanted to invade poland he faked a polish incursion into germany to justify it. times and culture and the individuals perception of society had changed ie. advanced

thousands of years ago people didn't question their place in the world to the extent that is common today, it just didn't occur to them to question it. things were the way things were. and what questions that were asked were rudimentary as they didn't have a recorded history to build on

i've often wondered how a mind would develop in isolation.

we are the sum of our past and the thoughts of others

have you ever read or come across a thought or concept that just changed the way you see the world or a portion of it, something you would not have thought of on your own?




_____________________________

all around nice guy and creative misogynist

i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 1:43:11 PM   
Kana


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quote:


With that is mind what is your idea on the differences between that and slave as you think of it?


My slave can leave whenever she wants. That's the difference.


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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 1:48:57 PM   
osf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:


With that is mind what is your idea on the differences between that and slave as you think of it?


My slave can leave whenever she wants. That's the difference.



the right to obey or leave


_____________________________

all around nice guy and creative misogynist

i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 2:15:45 PM   
LadyRian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

homo sapiens I think are on a two track evolutionary progression, physical and mental (ways of seeing and thinking about the world) which is why we are sometimes confused about other cultures.

when caesar wanted to invade gaul he just went ahead and invaded , he didn't need an excuse to justify it to the world. when hitler wanted to invade poland he faked a polish incursion into germany to justify it. times and culture and the individuals perception of society had changed ie. advanced

thousands of years ago people didn't question their place in the world to the extent that is common today, it just didn't occur to them to question it. things were the way things were. and what questions that were asked were rudimentary as they didn't have a recorded history to build on

i've often wondered how a mind would develop in isolation.

we are the sum of our past and the thoughts of others

have you ever read or come across a thought or concept that just changed the way you see the world or a portion of it, something you would not have thought of on your own?





I have. And I've also changed the way I view the world as a result of having some ideals I valued highly smashed in front of my eyes by someone I cared about a lot more than I should have. This has altered my perception of the world, and myself, in perhaps a much more grim way than I could have initially surmised. It's changed me to the point where I sometimes wonder if I even  recognise myself anymore. This is not necessarily positive change.


I've also been inspired to surpass my limitations through the influence of others, either through reading literature, experiencing their art, or through the performance of, or hearing, their music. The ability to actualise ideas are what set us apart from the majority of the animal kingdom.

Apes with Symphonies and Libraries.



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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 2:35:41 PM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: osf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:


With that is mind what is your idea on the differences between that and slave as you think of it?


My slave can leave whenever she wants. That's the difference.



the right to obey or leave



Leave.

If she doesn't obey, she will be gone. I care little for tedious games.


_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 3:33:11 PM   
darkenchantment


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

that's your perogative.

I've been in quite a few relationships that weren't kink based including my marriage and I was quite content thanks.

When I met Master we rarely if ever talked about kink until we decided we actually wanted to be together. Even to this day our conversations rarely revolve around kink, hell most of life together is not that much kink. It's usually work, eat, sleep, take care of daily problems, etc...





In my opinion, a very wise way to begin a relationship. No matter how much excitement we might want in our lives and relationships, much of our time does revolve around such things. We all have to brush our teeth, and occasionally break wind........difficult to think of master or mistress as that godlike being when they're sitting on the loo with a gyppy tum.......

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Peace and happiness is the way.

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/6/2011 3:49:10 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThundersCry

a slave has two choices....
you OBEY or you....don`t.



Sorry to be pedantic, but I think, technically, that's one choice. The word 'choice' already implies more than one thing to go for - that's contained in the definition of the word. But you could say 'a slave has two options'.

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RE: What is the difference between a slave and a slave? - 2/7/2011 7:13:30 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
But then, even when the health of that relationship ceases to exist, you can still feel emotionally enslaved, so to my mind, that takes the concept from being consensual to non-consensual in that you may not want to feel enslaved any longer, but you do feel that way.
But, that happens in vanilla relationships, too. That's not a D/s thing.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to sexyred1)
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