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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 4:20:46 AM

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Akasha,

I think to some degree that "subtle appreciation" of what a submissive recognizes as erotic for his Domme (especially if it's not overt) requires a degree of insight that is not all that common in any type of relationship.

In other words, that type of submissive is looking beneath the surface of things, and for a deeper understanding.

In the BDSM realm, and on both sides of the D/s equation, there are a lot of people acting out on compulsions and obsessions, and the intimacy can't go beyond that.

I know what you are talking about though, and I had a Domme once with an erotic attraction to men being forced to work out somewhat against their will (like a guy in a gym class being forced to run windsprints by the coach). It was fun to tape those segments on the VCR (remember those!?) and play them back before dinner over a glass of wine.
"Oh by the way D., look what I saw on TV today...."
It was fun for both of us.

Chris

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 4:41:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

The subs that say "I don't try to learn anything from watching porn, it's just porn" -- these are often the same guys emulating every bad stereotype they see in porn, or expecting the femdom to do the same.
Your evidence for this? Because I'm really not seeing it.

Indeed. Wow. Has the general consensus amongst femdoms changed overnight - along with all the much-rehearsed arguments that supported that view? Watching porn is now the way to *avoid* developing porn-based stereotypes about it all? My mind's kind of frying over that one!

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 2/15/2011 4:42:16 AM >

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 9:33:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Indeed. Wow. Has the general consensus amongst femdoms changed overnight - along with all the much-rehearsed arguments that supported that view? Watching porn is now the way to *avoid* developing porn-based stereotypes about it all? My mind's kind of frying over that one!

Don't be too quick to think it. I don't think it's what some of us are saying by any means.

From My perspective, what I'd really like for folks to consider if they are looking at it from the 'research' angle, would be to go to a public play space and observe. There's an added element there that can be picked up on. You can feel the difference between the good energy between folks playing with each other as opposed to 'playing up' to the crowd. Skip the folks who are showboating (yes, those will absolutely be found) and just watch the people who are oblivious to the fact that there's an audience. Notice the connection that they have and how they respond to each other.

That's going to turn Me on a lot more than something staged specifically for the viewer. Hands down.

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 10:23:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Indeed. Wow. Has the general consensus amongst femdoms changed overnight - along with all the much-rehearsed arguments that supported that view? Watching porn is now the way to *avoid* developing porn-based stereotypes about it all? My mind's kind of frying over that one!

No change. Watching femdom porn that is marketed *to men* and their fantasies is mainly going to keep a guy's focus on what gets his dick hard, because that's what commercial femdom porn focuses on.

Watching porn that is marketed to people who are sexually attracted to men and who want to look at submissive men as sex objects is a whole other ballpark. I would indeed recommend it to a male submissive who wants to learn how to be viewed as sexy and attractive in his submissive role, whether or not he is gay or bisexual. It is an excellent lesson in how the male can be packaged as the submissive sex object, not treated as the effectively dominant consumer whose desires are catered to.

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 1:01:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

Watching porn that is marketed to people who are sexually attracted to men and who want to look at submissive men as sex objects is a whole other ballpark. I would indeed recommend it to a male submissive who wants to learn how to be viewed as sexy and attractive in his submissive role, whether or not he is gay or bisexual. It is an excellent lesson in how the male can be packaged as the submissive sex object, not treated as the effectively dominant consumer whose desires are catered to.

When you put it like that, what you (and Akasha) are saying makes a lot of sense. I've never really attempted to pick up clues on how to present myself as a submissive from porn of any kind, but I can see the logic in the idea. I do try to learn from erotic writing by dominant women, and looking at porn that focuses on submissive men would be a visual equivalent of the same process. It would be nice if more of that porn were made by and for women, rather than men, but I suppose we all have to live with what's available.

One reason why few submissive men bother trying to learn how to package themselves from porn might be that society doesn't exactly encourage men to think about packaging themselves in general (at least not in the realm of sexual intimacy). Discussions of sex often take it for granted that men are the ones who have desires, which women might or might not choose to fulfill. The idea that men could actively work to arouse female desire doesn't get taken seriously, so a lot of men don't pay much attention to the issue. The first time I was with a dominant woman, I had the idea that I should act like a hero being tortured in a comic book and try not to react to what she was doing to me. To the extent that I thought about it at all, I assumed that her pleasure would come from breaking down my resistance and overcoming my attempts at stoicism. Fortunately, she was direct enough to explain (and actually insist) that she wanted me to freely express pain when she hit me, and I've been a rather vocal and squirmy sort of bottom ever since. At first the idea of gasping or moaning when I could have held back actually seemed rather contrived and dishonest, but it didn't take me too long to come around to the view that it was just sincere communication - a way of letting my tormentor know what I was authentically experiencing, in a way that she would appreciate. Maybe watching the right kind of porn could teach submissive men that it's all right to moan.

On the other hand, dominant women are individuals. Do all of them like the way submissive men tend to be presented in gay BDSM porn? And I've seen enough M/m stuff to know that there's a lot of variation in style anyway, so it's hard to know exactly what to emulate. For the most part, I think I'll stick with asking the woman in my life how she likes to see me behave, and trying to learn more about her specific preferences. For unattached submissives who need a starting point, though, I guess M/m porn might not be a bad choice.

(in reply to LadyNTrainer)

RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 3:32:46 PM

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I understand and agree with the points regarding male subs needing to take a more active role in their bottoming, that they shouldn't be passive receivers. And how it's important that they try to understand what reactions and attitudes they're putting out that a sadist Femdom would find attractive. I really do get the underlying point of all this.

But I guess I still have two questions/issues that I can't get squared away in regard to this idea of male subs watching m/m BDSM porn for "homework"...

1st - For the subs who have learnt so many bad habits from the average, male-driven Femdom porn, I don't see a lot of that being counteracted by them watching m/m BDSM porn. Granted, it could be one piece of the solution for them to be on their way to becoming a better submissive. But isn't there a more fundamental problem here that needs to be addressed? And that fundamental problem being a male sub thinking far too much about the fulfillment of his own fantasies rather than focusing on submission and service that pleases his Femdom?

It seems to me like a general overhaul is needed when these kind of attitudes and outlooks are present in a male sub.

And 2nd - Have you come across male subs who are able to generate the responses you're attracted to without having to do "homework"? In other words, the responses they are putting out that just "do it" for you, these are their own natural responses to fear, pain, passion, etc. and not just picked up from porn (be it hetero or m/m bdsm porn) or any other outside source for that matter?

And I ask this based on what's going on in my own head as a submissive male. The subtle (and not-so-subtle) reactions that I exhibit during play - be it trembling, heavy breathing, a sigh, squirming while bound, weak knees, a flinch - these are all (typically) natural manifestations of my personal discomfort, unease, desire, etc. I suppose I feel a little weird trying to pick up these "reactions" from outside sources when I've never had issues generating them out of my own physical and mental state.

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 3:52:29 PM

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quote:

Why aren't het men studying this stuff and getting a sense of what femdoms like? I'm not the first femdom to proclaim that while I like BDSM porn, I tend to gravitate toward gay BDSM porn not because I have a huge thing for guys together, but because the men are more pretty to look at.

I am basically heterosexual, although I find some guys hot and I've kissed dudes. But all of my longterm relationships have been heterosexual relationships, my fantasy life is more or less exclusively hetero, and I've had at most 15 or 20 bisexual encounters (mostly kissing).

I do often watch M/M porn though, for a number of reasons. It's generally better produced. The activities are generally way hotter for me. Aesthetically, it's often way better too--I get really distracted by how flabby and flat out ugly the dudes often are in straight S&M porn. I mean it's honestly appalling.

To be candid, I'd never even considered the notion that watching M/M porn might give me a better idea of what women like, but that's probably true.

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 4:23:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

No change. Watching femdom porn that is marketed *to men* and their fantasies is mainly going to keep a guy's focus on what gets his dick hard, because that's what commercial femdom porn focuses on.

Watching porn that is marketed to people who are sexually attracted to men and who want to look at submissive men as sex objects is a whole other ballpark. I would indeed recommend it to a male submissive who wants to learn how to be viewed as sexy and attractive in his submissive role, whether or not he is gay or bisexual. It is an excellent lesson in how the male can be packaged as the submissive sex object, not treated as the effectively dominant consumer whose desires are catered to.

Yes. Hmmm. Nup, I'm sorry, but I don't see why gay porn is any less likely to be hammed up and utterly staged as het porn. There's nothing more destructive to any sense of real D/s, to me, than D/s porn. I don't 'do' het D/s porn for that reason. I never have done. It's dismal and depressing. I've never liked F/m-aimed porn partly because of the pisspoor acting of it - or suspicion thereof - and I can't see why M/m porn would be any different in that respect. I need to see authenticity of feelings, particularly hers. I cannot rely on seeing that in any species of porn. Most especially, I can't rely upon the idea that a male porn-actor's Domming is going to be anything like a real-life femdom's.

There are, as I've said before, a multitude of well-rehearsed arguments against 'porn as an educative device' that are tirelessly promoted on this forum and which would equally apply to M/m porn. Included in these are that argument which runs, 'What an individual femdom wants is quite different to what 'Ms Generic Femdom wants, as purveyed in porn'. Most femdoms here have always been scathing of that - and I think rightly so. It implies a cold, soulless, empty view of D/s relationships and I don't want any part of it. I know of many malesubs, and a few, (utterly shudder-inducing) femdoms, who want that too - but it's never going to be part of any world that I'll engage in.

Me, I've come to believe that what 'works' for 'my' femdom is something I'll have to find out about, when the time comes, and one-to-one. If, and only if, she suggests that I look at M/m porn, then I will. I will probably have to watch it with her, mind you, because what turns her on about it probably won't be what I imagine turns her on. Submales and femdoms can be wired so, so differently, I've realised. (And femdoms here have always concurred, to date.) As an intelligent malesub, I would suggest that the best a femdom can ever get from a malesub is that he has as open mind about what turns her on as he can arrange. In my view, it'd be a bad idea for a femdom to fuck that up and she should tread very carefully lest she do so.

*Sigh* - Right, to get the blindingly obvious arguments out of the way, I'll admit that there are do-me malesubs around, who are lazy when it comes to finding out what really interests their femdom partners and, I'll further admit, who also may be homophobic. But can I offer, at this point, the suggestion that there may, just possibly, be malesubs for whom these charges just aren't relevant? That, in answer to the question of this OP, 'Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m porn?' the answer *may be* that of 'No, not offended, just not interested, can't see the relevance and think it might even be detrimental to (what I hope will be) my relationship'?

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 6:38:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

No change. Watching femdom porn that is marketed *to men* and their fantasies is mainly going to keep a guy's focus on what gets his dick hard, because that's what commercial femdom porn focuses on.

Watching porn that is marketed to people who are sexually attracted to men and who want to look at submissive men as sex objects is a whole other ballpark. I would indeed recommend it to a male submissive who wants to learn how to be viewed as sexy and attractive in his submissive role, whether or not he is gay or bisexual. It is an excellent lesson in how the male can be packaged as the submissive sex object, not treated as the effectively dominant consumer whose desires are catered to.

Yes. Hmmm. Nup, I'm sorry, but I don't see why gay porn is any less likely to be hammed up and utterly staged as het porn. There's nothing more destructive to any sense of real D/s, to me, than D/s porn. I don't 'do' het D/s porn for that reason. I never have done. It's dismal and depressing. I've never liked F/m-aimed porn partly because of the pisspoor acting of it - or suspicion thereof - and I can't see why M/m porn would be any different in that respect. I need to see authenticity of feelings, particularly hers. I cannot rely on seeing that in any species of porn. Most especially, I can't rely upon the idea that a male porn-actor's Domming is going to be anything like a real-life femdom's.

There are, as I've said before, a multitude of well-rehearsed arguments against 'porn as an educative device' that are tirelessly promoted on this forum and which would equally apply to M/m porn. Included in these are that argument which runs, 'What an individual femdom wants is quite different to what 'Ms Generic Femdom wants, as purveyed in porn'. Most femdoms here have always been scathing of that - and I think rightly so. It implies a cold, soulless, empty view of D/s relationships and I don't want any part of it. I know of many malesubs, and a few, (utterly shudder-inducing) femdoms, who want that too - but it's never going to be part of any world that I'll engage in.

Me, I've come to believe that what 'works' for 'my' femdom is something I'll have to find out about, when the time comes, and one-to-one. If, and only if, she suggests that I look at M/m porn, then I will. I will probably have to watch it with her, mind you, because what turns her on about it probably won't be what I imagine turns her on. Submales and femdoms can be wired so, so differently, I've realised. (And femdoms here have always concurred, to date.) As an intelligent malesub, I would suggest that the best a femdom can ever get from a malesub is that he has as open mind about what turns her on as he can arrange. In my view, it'd be a bad idea for a femdom to fuck that up and she should tread very carefully lest she do so.

*Sigh* - Right, to get the blindingly obvious arguments out of the way, I'll admit that there are do-me malesubs around, who are lazy when it comes to finding out what really interests their femdom partners and, I'll further admit, who also may be homophobic. But can I offer, at this point, the suggestion that there may, just possibly, be malesubs for whom these charges just aren't relevant? That, in answer to the question of this OP, 'Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m porn?' the answer *may be* that of 'No, not offended, just not interested, can't see the relevance and think it might even be detrimental to (what I hope will be) my relationship'?

I concur with your observations, but I will add the following:

If the Porn Male Doms are eliciting the responses from the submissive/malesubs, then shouldn't Femdoms learn from them? Submission is tailored to Dominance wants and needs, so if porn can be educational, then Femdommes should study what the Male Dominant is doing in order to elicit the same reactions.

mnw

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 6:47:44 PM

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(i think the dynamic between gay D/s and heterosexual FD/ms is a little different.) i'm only really chiming in here to say -- marsneedswomen, you're name is bloody awesome.

i will now exit -- carry on.

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 7:02:18 PM

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I haven't got the time to watch films, television, or porn I'm not interested in.

I'd go to a Francis Bacon exhibit but skip a Damien Hirst exhibit.

I'd watch vanilla g/g porn before m/m BDSM porn.

If I'm budgeting my spare time I will prioritize based on my interests.

If forced to choose between watching an entire major league baseball game or m/m BDSM porn I would pick the m/m BDSM porn. I am offended by MLB (and NASCAR).

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 7:39:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I'm sorry, but I don't see why gay porn is any less likely to be hammed up and utterly staged as het porn.

Yes. Exactly. Gay porn is hammed up to deliberately package men as sex objects and to make them look hot for the benefit of the viewer. The male is marketed as the sex object, the meat puppet, the fuck toy, the object that is looked at and enjoyed. The men stage themselves to be objects of the viewer's gaze, appealing to people who enjoy looking at sexy men.

Heterosexual submissive men, for the most part, simply don't know how to do that. They know how to demand that a woman stage herself for their viewing pleasure, which is arguably the most annoying mistake that "submissive" men make to really turn off dominant women. They do not know how to "ham it up" for her viewing pleasure, or to package themselves as the object to be consumed rather than as the consumer. And therein lies the very specific lesson we wish they would learn.

This article sums it up nicely, and I highly recommend it. Of Never Feeling Hot: The missing narrative desire in the lives of straight men

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 2/15/2011 7:44:19 PM >

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 7:54:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marsneedswomen
If the Porn Male Doms are eliciting the responses from the submissive/malesubs, then shouldn't Femdoms learn from them? Submission is tailored to Dominance wants and needs, so if porn can be educational, then Femdommes should study what the Male Dominant is doing in order to elicit the same reactions.

That would make perfect sense if it were just reactions that were the issue. It's the fundamental mindset and attitude of someone who is a viewer and a consumer versus someone who knows how to be viewed and packaged for consumption.

That isn't something I can change about a person no matter how I flog them or tie them up. It is possible to change someone's baseline attitude and mindset over time, but we're talking about a pretty major brain overhaul here. Not something I'm really interested in taking the time and energy to do for a casual partner, and I simply won't pick a long term partner who is that fundamentally incompatible with me.

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 9:00:57 PM

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To OP
I understand exactly what you are saying. It may be because I have a friend who is a lesbian. We talk about sex often and she told me that she hates watching lesbian porn. Kind of for similar reasons that you don't like Femdom porn. When she just wants to masturbate and get off, she watches M/M gay porn.

And, I can certainly understand that the guys (in Femdom porn), for the most part, have no charisma and present no challenge to the Domme. Not that the Domme should be overtly challenged but there just doesn't seem to be any energy coming from the male subs in those films. And, most times, they are very unappealing physically.

I think if you had specific porn DVDs that you wanted your sub to watch it would be helpful. Instead of saying watch M/M D/s porn in general.

Just my humble opinion.

< Message edited by lickenforyou -- 2/15/2011 9:11:19 PM >

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/15/2011 10:10:55 PM

KeepMeUnderneath

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic

quote:

Men think with their dicks, not their heads. Their dicks have more brains than their heads

Seriously dude? Really??? This just makes me sad. Pathetic state of affairs if this be the case. (bangs head furiously against the wall)

Seriously. Like, are you serious? Like OHHHHH MYYYYY GAWWWWWWD. YOU MUST BE SO SERIOUS THAT OH MY GAWD SOMEBODY CALL THE JOKE POLICE, because thissss is just getttingggg WAYYYYYYYYYYYY to therious!.

Cheer up. If you become all "Mature" about this you will end up a very sad person.
Read a book .....

With your dick

.. No no I'm kidding.

But really the point is, guys to some extent are all that way inclined. If you had two stair cases parralell and threw two chicks down them at the same time, one ugly and one sexy, if the sexy one didn't get so busted up that she wasn't sexy anymore, I think any guy would help the sexy one because deep in his mind whether he likes to admit it or not, whether he can recognise it conciously or not, he's saying to himself "If I help her I may she may like me, which may mean some sexy time" Maybe not to that extent but if you can't get the gist of what I'm saying, then please, turn around now.

quote:

quote:

The subs that say "I don't try to learn anything from watching porn, it's just porn" -- these are often the same guys emulating every bad stereotype they see in porn, or expecting the femdom to do the same.

Your evidence for this? Because I'm really not seeing it.

I think I'm seeing it. There seems to be a lot of immature types about thinking that maturity is all about being like "Not all men think with their dicks. Some of us are sensitive". .. Yeah, the ones who've had sex changes maybe or been castrated or something.

I think people fail to recognise the humanity in it all. "Im a sub, I'm a domme", all that crap. Trying to be the perfect domme or sub or whatever with out being a perfect person first. And we all are. Even with all our flaws we are all perfect. But be honest about it.

Men need porn. We are visually inclined. Porn is a method of tricking a primal instinct. We evolved eyes to be better hunters. For food or to find better mates. Porn is a way of tricking our eyes into thinking we have found a suitable mate, which in turn gets us horny and because its just porn and theres no, physical, opening., our hand curves around and we make do with what we have you get the gist?

When you are the average guy, and you are flabby, and you watch some hot domme dominate some flabby, piss poor actor. I'm sure it gives them a sense of hope that one day they could be in those films or in the fantasies taking place. Its all marketting to primal senses.
It's all bullshit. It helps stimulate creativity. It all has its value in some way, shape or form.

(in reply to ThePeripatetic)

RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/16/2011 6:08:27 AM

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The closest I can come to this is watching gay males play. I don't have a -lot- of experience doing that, but the play that I have seen can be pretty hot! There is a primal aspect to a lot of the gay male play that I have seen that I find quite alluring.

Most porn just makes me laugh...even Pirates...

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RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/16/2011 6:34:50 AM

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Nice link as to the story LadyNTraniner and it sounds like with his experiences men gave him more verbal complements then women. With my background as to be in a monastery during those teenage years I think I just do not see if a women or a man for that matter is hitting on me. It takes others to tell me or it is almost to a point where someone has to almost hit me over the head.

(in reply to OttersSwim)

RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/16/2011 6:07:24 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Why would a man seek out m/m porn if he didn't get turned on by it? Choosing to watch it to find out what a woman likes without being directed to? That's a leap of logic very few would make.

Indeed Lady Hib, You nailed this! We don't ... at least if we are hetro ....

But if we are really into a Lady ... and it interests Her ... then all bets are off!

Cause You know we can be suck-ups too!

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/16/2011 6:37:08 PM

YSG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I'm sorry, but I don't see why gay porn is any less likely to be hammed up and utterly staged as het porn.

Yes. Exactly. Gay porn is hammed up to deliberately package men as sex objects and to make them look hot for the benefit of the viewer. The male is marketed as the sex object, the meat puppet, the fuck toy, the object that is looked at and enjoyed. The men stage themselves to be objects of the viewer's gaze, appealing to people who enjoy looking at sexy men.

Heterosexual submissive men, for the most part, simply don't know how to do that. They know how to demand that a woman stage herself for their viewing pleasure, which is arguably the most annoying mistake that "submissive" men make to really turn off dominant women. They do not know how to "ham it up" for her viewing pleasure, or to package themselves as the object to be consumed rather than as the consumer. And therein lies the very specific lesson we wish they would learn.

This article sums it up nicely, and I highly recommend it. Of Never Feeling Hot: The missing narrative desire in the lives of straight men

Having been a musician, and also being a submissive male, I do know what it means to be the "object of desire". However, those that have desired me, have also hurt me. This has led to me putting up walls, not allowing anyone in. This has made me act like a hard, uncaring jerk, when, in truth, all I really wanted, and still want, is for someone to see the truth. The truth is, I am hurting, lost, and desperetly wanting someone to love me for me. Not for what I represent.

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

(in reply to LadyNTrainer)

RE: Are male subs (bottoms) offended by m/m bondage porn? - 2/16/2011 7:16:57 PM

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo
Indeed Lady Hib, You nailed this! We don't ... at least if we are hetro ....

But if we are really into a Lady ... and it interests Her ... then all bets are off! Cause You know we can be suck-ups too!

Excellent comment! Not to mention, entirely the point!

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to seekingOwnertoo)

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