RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (Full Version)

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EternalHoH -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 9:42:41 AM)

Counseling hospice is not a death panel.

I simply cannot defend a position that is only a leap of hysterics in YOUR mind.



EternalHoH -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 9:44:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Since my attitudes on heroic measures are quite different from that, such costs wouldn't be impacting




I have news for you.  Your personal attitudes and my personal attitudes on heroic medicine do not speak for those families going through the pain-driven irrational decision-making.

Simply saying heroic medicine expense is wrong doesn't stop it.






tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 9:45:27 AM)

Arizona already has a "death panel" in effect. Did you bnoth forget the medicaid patients who died after they had been approved for transplants? Want to try and insist this is in the "health care law"?



Sanity -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 9:51:20 AM)


Now you appear to be waffling.

Backpedaling.

It sure read like you were in favor of death panels here:

quote:

This "leaving it to them, because its their cute potato" is precisely why Medicare is going broke.  This same irrational decision-making happens everyday among the families of octogenarians in this country, and at present, Medicare is obliged to pay for it, no questions asked.   But rather than have that rational discussion in this country, we simply kick the can down the road and borrow more from China to fund it all.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3605595


quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

Counseling hospice is not a death panel.

I simply cannot defend a position that is only a leap of hysterics in YOUR mind.




EternalHoH -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 9:53:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

There only needs to be one, Eterna. It's a niche market.




And which 'one' would be dumb enough to do that? And the premiums would be prohibitively high and exclude the vast majority of poor elderly who right now, under medicare, are making those same decisions in favor of heroic medicine today.  Will that resulting thinning of the herd based on who can afford the high premiums be recognized as a private sector death panel?




tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 9:56:50 AM)

quote:

It sure read like you were in favor of death panels here:


Are you still equating Advanced Directives, which include living wills and such, as "death panels"?



TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 9:58:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

I have news for you.  Your personal attitudes and my personal attitudes on heroic medicine do not speak for those families going through the pain-driven irrational decision-making.



Watching a family go through the "pain-driven irrational decision-making," was an important part of how I developed the personal attitudes I have, Eterna. I am far more proactive in my views about euthanasia than most people would be comfortable with, BUT, I'm going to get all persnickety about what authority is presumed to have the final say, and under what circumstances.



Sanity -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 9:59:05 AM)


Youre not following, tazzy. Thats the most polite way I can think of to put it, its like youre not reading the same post that I am.



tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:02:17 AM)

Ok.....

This post....

quote:

This "leaving it to them, because its their cute potato" is precisely why Medicare is going broke. This same irrational decision-making happens everyday among the families of octogenarians in this country, and at present, Medicare is obliged to pay for it, no questions asked. But rather than have that rational discussion in this country, we simply kick the can down the road and borrow more from China to fund it all.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3605595


...... to me is talking about the lack of conversations many of our elderly should be having with their Drs over advanced directives...

This post......

quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

Counseling hospice is not a death panel.

I simply cannot defend a position that is only a leap of hysterics in YOUR mind.


..... to me is supporting the other.

How are you reading it?



DomKen -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:07:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well now, that's much better than we have typically come to expect from you, Ken. Of course, the article fails to mention that the mother in the Hudson case was determined to be psychologically impaired. You can get a much fuller account by reading, Incompetent Decisionmakers and Withdrawal of Life-Sustaining Treatment: A Case Study, written by the director of Texas Children's Hospital's legal department.

Flco has also been very helpful (by accident, I'm sure) in quoting and bolding the bit of your link that makes it very clear that the Texas law applies to the specific hospital making the decision, and insures that the family has time to try and veto that decision by voting with their feet.



Which is exactly what happened in Canada. The doctors at the hospital made the decision and the parents were free to move the child elsewhere.



Sanity -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:08:41 AM)


To me the implication leaned towards giving the government a lot more power over patients and familys lives in order to cut costs. People already have free counseling, advice, etc.



tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:12:18 AM)

quote:

To me the implication leaned towards giving the government a lot more power over patients and familys lives in order to cut costs. People already have free counseling, advice, etc.


People have access to counciling, advice, ect, on how to fill those forms out.

What they need is a long, honest chat with their Dr about the "hows" and "whys" pertaining to their own health care situation, and the realistic expectations.

Only their own physician can give them that.

The HCL wanted to be able to encourage more Drs to take the time to do just that.



Sanity -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:20:10 AM)


Physicians and critical care nurses can talk with their patients today... you dont need new laws allowing for that. How long does a physician need to explain a situation?



EternalHoH -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:23:19 AM)

quote:

Now you appear to be waffling.

Backpedaling.

It sure read like you were in favor of death panels here:





For those with reading deficiencies:

Top quote:

I think patients and their families should be presented with all the options, including hospice as an alternative to expensive 11th hour heroic procedures. Too many families that act irrationally today are not being educated on all their options. And I have no problem forcing those who still want the heroic procedures to cover more of that cost differential out of their own pockets, rather than out of the taxpayers pockets.  It is their elective choice, but if they choose the 'denial of death' route, they can pony up more of the financial difference rather than expect you or me to pay that bill..


Bottom quote:

No, simply educating all patients on all the options, including hospice alternatives, is not a "death panel" leap of logic that the batshit crazies spin.


How you determine that to be 'waffling' is beyond me.

I suspect that when you get boxed in, you make up shit about your opponent.




tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:23:28 AM)

The law wasnt to tell Drs to talk to their patients. It was to reimburse them under a different charge.

Edited to add....

Under Section 1233, a doctor would be paid for having an "advance care planning consultation" with a patient. The consultation wouldn't be mandatory, at least for now. But if the doctor wants to get paid for it, the consultation's contents are very specifically prescribed. For example, each consultation "shall include" an explanation of legal documents such as living wills and durable powers of attorney, and information about the "continuum of end-of-life services." Patients need not be ill but, because they are over a certain age, their doctors will suggest that it's time to talk about death.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/09/death_talk_for_seniors.html

And that is definitely not a "liberal" site.



TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:27:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

And which 'one' would be dumb enough to do that? And the premiums would be prohibitively high and exclude the vast majority of poor elderly who right now, under medicare, are making those same decisions in favor of heroic medicine today.  Will that resulting thinning of the herd based on who can afford the high premiums be recognized as a private sector death panel?





Hasn't enough of this thread been devoted to going in circles, Eterna? An individual hospital or insurance company is not an arm of the state. I said all the way back at the top of page 1, that it was a shitty thing US insurance companies did as well.

I have no idea which company's beancounters might find a practical business model in gomer-maintenance. If I was going looking, I'd want a company that has an option for top quality hospice, and a monthly "quality of life" stipend with a terminal diagnosis. I've also let plenty of kin know that they are supposed to shoot me, before letting me sit in a chair and drool all day.* That's a hell of a thing to be decided by anyone other than the individual though.


*Does not apply to internet porn



EternalHoH -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:29:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Physicians and critical care nurses can talk with their patients today...



But Medicare does not pay the doctor to have that conversation.   Wake up, dope.

The financial incentive today, for the doctor and the hospitals involved, is to advocate the heroic procedures route. And many families take them up on it.

The mere suggestion to change that reimbursement formula brought out the 'medicare becomes a death panel' batshit crazies.





Sanity -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:29:20 AM)


Once they realized it though, finding reverse gear became the top priority.

Its amazing... and they wonder aloud why we cant have "a frank and honest discussion about it" in this country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

They walked right into that one, didn't they, Sanity? [:D]



maybemaybenot -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:33:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


To me the implication leaned towards giving the government a lot more power over patients and familys lives in order to cut costs. People already have free counseling, advice, etc.




The majority of people in this country < USA > do not have Advanced Directives/ HCP or POA's. They are widely ignorant of anything to do with it. Yes, I am making a sweeping statement from personal experience.

There is a lack of accurate communication with families and patients as to what a DNR is. Most MDs I have heard address it have a conversation something like this:

If your heart stops, do you want us to push on your chest and give you mouth to mouth to get your heart started.

Well now.. that sounds quite lovely doesn't it. No biggie. A couple of compressions a quick blow or two into your mouth and Viola ! you're right back in the saddle. Most decline the DNR when it is explained like that.

Here's how I explain it :
If I come into your room and find you dead, that you have passed away and your not breathing and your heart has stopped beating, Do you want us to push on your chest and do mouth to mouth, put a tube down your throat and put you on a machine that will breate for you, instead of you breating yourself ? Or do you want us to treat any problems that arise like infection with an anti biotic, if you choke we will do the Heimlich, if you need oxygen we can give you oxygen. etc.

My success rate in getting people to agree to be a DNR is pretty high. I have worked in end of life for 25 years, so it is a ver, very common conversation I have with people. Most people say Ohh if I am already dead, don't do anything, but the other stuff is OK.


Maybe in some people's mind I am one of the death panelists, but in my mind it's accurately converying what actually is going to happen to them should they die. And any decision regarding your health should be informed consent, not sugar coated consent with inaccurate information

While I do not agree with the Government sending folks out to peoples home at age 65 or any age to do this, as was proposed in the original HC bill. I do believe that there needs to something in place to educate people. Not neccesarlily governmet controlled.

mbmbn

PS: I gave you a brief overview of my chats with patients, I make it very personalized and to the patients level of understanding. And it's not a quick 2 minute conversation. They generally ask questions and we have a real discussion. I know a handfull of MDs who do the same, not many.



tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 10:34:05 AM)

If a Dr decides its in the best interest of someone to undergo surgery, and that person says no, then it stops.

If a Dr decides someone needs surgery, and the guardian says no, then it can go to court.

If a Dr determines a child needs medical care, and the parents say no citing religious preferences, then it goes to court.

In this case, the Drs decided the tubes should be pulled. The parents said no. It went to court.

The parents losing this case is no different than the parents losing the right to sue viccine companies because of the nonsense published in the Lancet.

Medical experts said no to the procedure. The parents didnt like that decision and they went to find other Drs. That is within their rights to do. But to force a Dr to perform a procedure against their better judgement is wrong. Period.



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