RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (Full Version)

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DeviantlyD -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 5:42:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I am an avid opponent of Government run healthcare,

mbmbn



Why?




tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 5:42:41 PM)

So they are dependent on the system. Makes sense.




maybemaybenot -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 5:51:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD


quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I am an avid opponent of Government run healthcare,

mbmbn



Why?



It's consistant with my Libertarian philosophy.





tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 5:53:48 PM)

And thats the only reason?




TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 5:55:13 PM)

That isn't more than enough?




tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 5:55:46 PM)

Just because something is consistent with your philosophy doesnt mean its right.




TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 5:58:18 PM)

I won't speak for Mbmbn, Tazzy, but I think you are taking a very narrow view of what a philosophy is.




tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 6:01:15 PM)

A political philosophy isnt the same as a personal philosophy, in my opinion. They can be, they dont have to be.

I can believe in the Democratic philosophy and not believe in everything they decree.

I can disagree with the Republican philosophy, yet agree with points within that party.




TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 6:07:58 PM)

Or you can have a much larger philosophy about how the universe works and how humans interact within that, which leads you into the political philosophy that best aligns with your beliefs.




maybemaybenot -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 6:17:03 PM)

I'm not being snarky here:

If you take a look at the Libertarian Platform it pretty much outlines the reasons why a Libertarian does not support government run healthcare.

I live in Massachusetts, we have Romneycare, which Obamacare is based on. It is a miserable failure. Our healthcare costs have gone higher and higher and our premiums are now just about the highest in the US. Even the very Liberal Governor of this state, has said they people who initiated it < Romney-ites > had no forward out look and just wanted to pass the bill. Just to be clear: Gov Patrick supports the healthcare system we have, but thinks it needs tweaking. He is not on my side of the arguement.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703625304575115691871093652.html





EternalHoH -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 7:23:18 PM)

I have absolutely no problem with the nation coming down to a choice between a "medicare for all" or a "medicare for none" scenario.  What is unsustainable, and what I do not support, is continuing our present course of "medicare for some", where these arbitrarily chosen "some" have access to all the heroic medicine they desire, paid for without question by the government, and carried out by elite doctors who are only in medicine for the private sector money, doctors whose standard-of-living is subsidized by those on the outside paying higher medical costs than those inside the medicare system.

If you are against government healthcare, then lets abolish medicare completely.  Let the prices of private insurance policies dictate everything, from quality of treatment to who lives or dies, and let the MBMBNs of the world fight amongst themselves for the crumbs left behind by the private insurers still willing to do business after you subtract the government half of funding from the industry.  The problem here is, most doctors and MBMBN types don't want any outside control thrust upon them, nor do they accept crumbs in their paychecks. Their vision of their industry is unsustainable. The failure of their vision is what drove this entire crisis to this point.

Its nice to say that private systems drive higher levels of health care. But who says those higher levels are sustainable, are affordable, over the long run, as this nation continues to equalize with the lower standard of living found behind the bamboo curtain? 

You would think the libertarian view would deem healthcare as a right, rather than a condition of the quality of job a person holds. There is something inherently wrong with forcing the middle class and the poor to work to enrich the rich guys even more, simply to obtain the 'priviledge' to survive major illness. The rich guy in the top 1%, who by and large inherited what he has, doesn't have to work to enrich some other person to obtain the same 'priviledge'. You want to know why the top 1% are running away with all the wealth, this is why, the system we have now has that outcome engineered into it.  We middle class people have to work to make the top 1% wealthier just for the 'opportunity' to beat back major illness and continue living.  That doesn't sound very libertarian, very 'personal rights' oriented, to me.  That's about as "libertarian" as saying only rich people are entitled to own guns. 

And the truth of the matter is, Medicare has masked the downside of this systemic failure for far too long.  Had Medicare never existed, a great wave of elderly uninsured, those who no longer work to enrich the rich guy, would have exposed the weaknesses of this system a long time ago.  Medicare simply took the shit end of the stick and covered it with a rug.  Its like when increased government hiring absorbed alot of the negative effects of NAFTA, making the pain of NAFTA less acute, keeping the revolt over it suppressed.







outhere69 -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 7:26:08 PM)

Hawaii's got government health care, and even Rush Limbaugh couldn't squawk about their facilities. The number one problem we have in the US is that we tie our health benefits to an employer, unless you're poorer than snot, or over 65.  Any gap in employment and you were screwed for pre-existing conditions (that includes even taking medication for a condition, not seeing a doc or hospital visits.) I believe we're the only first-world country to do so.

It wasn't much acknowledged when we "only" had 5% or so unemployment but now there are bunches of people without any sort of coverage, yet not poor enough for Medicaid.  Additionally state funded Medicaid benefits are cut during economic downturns, just when it's needed most.




EternalHoH -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 7:32:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Here's a link to the " Free Ride ".




Absolutely, its a free ride.  Like SS, most people take out far more than they ever pay in.  Except the Medicare withdrawal part is amplified alot more than SS ever could be, which makes the Medicare problem far more acute than the SS problem.




tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 8:24:01 PM)

quote:

unless you're poorer than snot, or over 65.


Poorer than snot only gets you health care paid for by charities. The ones here have a two year waiting list for medical services. Medicaid only helps if you are pregnant, elderly, blind or disabled.




Sanity -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 8:37:32 PM)


There are also a lot of sliding scale clinics aka "free' clinics available to the poor, many of which are quite good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Poorer than snot only gets you health care paid for by charities. The ones here have a two year waiting list for medical services. Medicaid only helps if you are pregnant, elderly, blind or disabled.




tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 8:39:53 PM)

And, again, the biggest in my area, Catholic Charities, has a long, two year waiting list. Some of the others are at least months long. In other words, its not a walk in clinic, its by appointment only, after you have been approved, after the state has denied you.




tweakabelle -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 11:18:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

A medical decision that was ignored and taken to court to be decided by THE COURT by the family, not the other way around
can you be any more obtuse?




There is a serious disconnect here, between our points of view. Absent a DNR or living will, which is not a factor in this case, that the family must go to court to stop the euthanasia reflects a very different relationship between the rights of the individual and the rights of the state than what is acceptable here. It's a simple matter of who is presumed to have the final say, before the courts get involved.


The claim that this is a 'euthanasia' issue, and that this so-called euthanasia is somehow a consequence of 'socialised medicine', is where the disconnect is located as far as I can see.

A non-palliative procedure, for which no medical justification was advanced, was sought by the parents. It was rejected by all the appropriate medical and legal decision-makers, on purely medical grounds.

Nothing to do with euthanasia, or socialised medicine. The proper application of medical standards, nothing to do with the political structure of the health system.

Politics and emotive claims about 'euthanasia' entered the scenario when the parents and the US 'Right-to-Life' groups chose to turn a private tragedy, the death of an infant, into a political football and a media circus for selfish and (for the 'right-to-lifers') political reasons.

I can find reasons to understand and excuse the parents but the 'Right-to-Life groups' behaviour in this case was ugly heartless and cynical.




maybemaybenot -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/21/2011 11:20:11 AM)

Back to the OP : Baby Joseph.

He has had his trach performed today.

http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/health-med-fit/health/health-matters/article_95913712-53dc-11e0-b55e-00127992bc8b.html

mbmbn




tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/21/2011 11:28:36 AM)

Leigh syndrome

Poor baby.




flcouple2009 -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/21/2011 11:59:55 AM)

This is on the parents.  Their daughter died of the same disease 8 years ago.  They had plenty of time to understand what could happen again and the ass clowns had another child who now suffers the same fate.

Selfish asses is all they are. 




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