RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (Full Version)

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maybemaybenot -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 6:52:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl A Trach doesnt necessarily require a machine, A breathing tube does. From what I have read, this child will require mecahanical life support via the trach. < respirator > What puzzles me, is that after the trach is done the child is said to be going to a skilled nursing facility. Not home. I read this last night, bear with me, I will try and find a link to reference. Another puzzlement: The child has been in the US, what a week ? and still no trach ? It's a very simple procedure, short and quick. So I am wondering if the hospital bit off more than they could chew and there is some medical complication/reason he can't be trached. While I happen to strongly oppose the parents decision, I do think the parents have the " right " to say whether to continue treatment or not. I don't want to get on the religious aspect of it, BUT < lol > I have read that the right to lifers say removing the child from life support would be euthanasia and that it would be interferring in Gods will. Ummmm... the interference with Gods will came when someone decided to put the feeding tube, then the endo tube in and turn the respirator on. I've also read that the parents say removing life support would cause the child to smother to death. No, the child would go into repsiratory arrest and die. I am not sure if similar options are available in Canada, but in many cases, when someone is removed from life support they are given IV medications to put them in a medically induced coma which lets death pass quietly and peacefully. And IMO, far more humane than putting this poor little soul thru what these parents are doing. mbmbn

TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 6:54:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda It's no different here at all. If the doctors conclude that a procedure is not medically advisable, they will generally not perform it, no matter how much the family pressures them. If they do bend under the family's pleadings, the insurance company will usually slam the door and refuse to authorize it. There is nothing - nothing - about this situation that is unique to Canada or government-run health care. Nothing. Not even the part where the doctors have decided it is best to pull the plug, and the family has to go to court to stop it, Panda? What the doctors and experts of the death panel have decided it that there is no point in keeping the baby alive.

DomKen -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 7:51:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda It's no different here at all. If the doctors conclude that a procedure is not medically advisable, they will generally not perform it, no matter how much the family pressures them. If they do bend under the family's pleadings, the insurance company will usually slam the door and refuse to authorize it. There is nothing - nothing - about this situation that is unique to Canada or government-run health care. Nothing. Not even the part where the doctors have decided it is best to pull the plug, and the family has to go to court to stop it, Panda? What the doctors and experts of the death panel have decided it that there is no point in keeping the baby alive. The exact same thing has happened in Texas.

outhere69 -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 8:04:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Thats the socialist way, Rich. Government is god, government is nanny. Or big brother, take your pick. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic That seems to be the Canadian way, Panda. I don't see any of them showing up to clarify. WIthout the socialist hc the child wouldnt have survived to its first birthday, the parents cannot afford this there would have been no right to life group, it would just be another lousy american statistic stop the dreck its not helping Probably survived, but left parents bankrupt.

outhere69 -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 8:09:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda It's no different here at all. If the doctors conclude that a procedure is not medically advisable, they will generally not perform it, no matter how much the family pressures them. If they do bend under the family's pleadings, the insurance company will usually slam the door and refuse to authorize it. There is nothing - nothing - about this situation that is unique to Canada or government-run health care. Nothing. Not even the part where the doctors have decided it is best to pull the plug, and the family has to go to court to stop it, Panda? What the doctors and experts of the death panel have decided it that there is no point in keeping the baby alive. The exact same thing has happened in Texas. Yeah, we've said it a few times, but to no avail. MBMBN said it right, and I can verify it - sedatives and/or painkillers are given to someone taken off life support.

dcnovice -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 8:24:56 PM)
FR I posted this story on FB, and a wise friend posted a thoughtful reply. quote: This is a fascinating case. As a health care policy geek, I will admit that I detest when a society spends money on expensive and unproductive care, and yet I fully get that the definition of "unproductive" is very different to the patient's family than it is to society at large or to those paying the bill. This case also underscores the challenge we face in the US with Medicare (and to some extent, Medicaid). We can't afford - or more aptly, won't agree to tax ourselves at rate that would allow us to afford - providing high cost rescue care that doesn't create a long lasting positive life experience for the patient. We can all look at the Canadian system and scream, "see what happens when you have a death panel" but the very same folks that advocate for a patient-centered system don't want to deal with the crushing financial impact on the tax payer.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 8:41:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl As it stands, its a fatal disease, one that took the life of his older sister. There is no point, except to assuage the parents guilt at the time of death that all was "done", to doing this. The sister had the tracheotomy so she could go home to die. The parents knew exactly what they were doing and it nothing to do with guilt.

rulemylife -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 8:42:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero This, for instance, is a great example of an argument that would indeed have some heft in support of the idea that special cases could at least partially be made for family in situation where the degree of grief and emotional torment can be said to potentially be higher than normal. In what case would the impending death of any family member not cause a great deal of grief and emotional torment? So, you are proposing a rating system? The hospitals will work extra hard if the grief level is an eight rather than a five? Surely you read the rest of my comments and didn't take this snippet out of context as, alone, it reflects nothing close to my actual assessment of this specific case. Then maybe I misunderstood. My apologies if that is the case, but it did sound to me as if that was what you were saying.

TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 8:48:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The exact same thing has happened in Texas. Got some documentation on that claim, Ken? Do keep in mind that someone might actually read the link too, because your credibility is worth less than the kid's chances of seeing his second birthday.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 8:56:53 PM)
quote: The sister had the tracheotomy so she could go home to die. The parents knew exactly what they were doing and it nothing to do with guilt. You sure it wasn't about guilt? I mean, tazzy is sure it is so it must be true. I thought it could just as easily be about the parents spending the last days with their child in their own home as a family and or for those last memories. Call it what you will. I call it right.

TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 9:06:23 PM)
Cost is certainly an aspect, DC, but these parents do know what they are getting into. It's reportedly a rare disease. Hell, they probably have a better understanding of this condition's effects and progression than the doctors and board members who made the decision to euthanize. I'm on the other side of the choice they made. My concern is with who is making the choice. Hospitals and insurance companies don't set the law of the land here (well, writing Obamacare might be an exception). They are subject to bad press, and competition. If the parents can find a way to cover the costs, they are free to vote with their feet, right down the street. That doesn't seem to be the case for this family.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 9:09:47 PM)
I give up.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 9:28:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda I give up. Yeah, it's pointless. I have him on block, for what it's worth. He thinks it's amusing to point fingers and laugh at people with medical problems like degenerative disc disease, osteoarthritis, peripheral neuropathy, and so on. When people reveal their inner selves, one has to decide if one wants anything further to do with them. Me, I've decided that the scumbag assholes of the world have nothing to say that I want to hear.

TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 9:33:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda I give up. Ain't it a bitch when that happens? I understand what you have said here, Panda, but I am stuck on a niggling detail of the process. I don't like the assumption that the medical establishment is presumed to have the final word, going in to the fight.

TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:05:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster I have him on block, I don't miss him one little bit, either. It works out well.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:17:59 PM)
I thought I read that as well, but I didnt have time to find it before work. While I happen to strongly oppose the parents decision, I do think the parents have the " right " to say whether to continue treatment or not. Continue, yes. Dictate? No.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:28:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I thought I read that as well, but I didnt have time to find it before work. While I happen to strongly oppose the parents decision, I do think the parents have the " right " to say whether to continue treatment or not. Continue, yes. Dictate? No. So if a Doctor tells you that you need to do this or that, you think you have to listen to him?

DomKen -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 6:02:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The exact same thing has happened in Texas. Got some documentation on that claim, Ken? Do keep in mind that someone might actually read the link too, because your credibility is worth less than the kid's chances of seeing his second birthday. You claiming I have less than stellat credibility is hilarious. It's a fairly pathetic and completely obvious attempt to poison the well since you know I will prove the point. Here you go http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3087387.html Now I anxiously await your apology.

flcouple2009 -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 7:20:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Cost is certainly an aspect, DC, but these parents do know what they are getting into. It's reportedly a rare disease. Hell, they probably have a better understanding of this condition's effects and progression than the doctors and board members who made the decision to euthanize. I'm on the other side of the choice they made. My concern is with who is making the choice. Hospitals and insurance companies don't set the law of the land here (well, writing Obamacare might be an exception). They are subject to bad press, and competition. If the parents can find a way to cover the costs, they are free to vote with their feet, right down the street. That doesn't seem to be the case for this family. "Texas law allows hospitals to discontinue life-sustaining care, even if a patient's family members disagree. A doctor's recommendation must be approved by a hospital's ethics committee, and the family must be given 10 days from written notice of the decision to try and locate another facility for the patient.Texas Children's said it contacted 40 facilities with newborn intensive care units, but none would accept Sun." Where you wanting to have an actual discussion? It appears by your choice of title and statements you've made you really only want to take shots at the Canadians and Obamacare. So how about those "TX Death Panels"?

maybemaybenot -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/20/2011 7:26:39 AM)
F/U Reply: I fell asleep last night before posting the link: "The family said they wanted doctors to perform a tracheotomy that would allow the boy to be taken home and, if the prognosis of doctors is correct, to die in the loving arms of his family, as their daughter, stricken with the same disease, did eight years earlier." "Interestingly, the St. Louis hospital said it hopes that after a tracheotomy Joseph can be placed in a mechanical ventilator and be taken to an assisted-nursing facility with no mention of Joseph going home " http://www.lfpress.com/comment/columnists/joe_belanger/2011/03/18/17674041.html ___________________________________________________________________________________________ Tazzy: I'm very torn on this case, or any like it. I guess I would have to say, yes: to dictate it as well because I don't see the line between continue and dictate in this case. The current treatment has been to keep him alive on a vent. Currently via and an endo tube. Mechanical ventilation is the " treatment ", so changing the vehicle in which that is done doesn't change the treatment, just how it is delivered. If, in these parents minds, they had a choice to keep this child alive with all the bells and whistles of artificial life support with an endo tube, I * understand * their desire for a trach. I don't agree nor support that decision. That answer comes from an unemotional, detached POV. My personal POV is: I think these parents are selfish, and do not have the best interest of the child in mind. It's all about what they want. They are not enhancing the childs life, they are not providing comfort, they are not doing anything but maintaining a shell of a human being in a bed with no independent physical functioning except peeing and pooping. And most likey the child can't do that without a tube or medication. I think they are using any and all outlets < media, Right to Lifers, etc > to find their own emotional comfort and to justify their cruel choice. Like I said, they are only thinking of themselves. I think this is less about medical ethics, Canadian Healthcare vs US Healthcare, religion, God's will, healthcare, than it is about parents with psychological problems regarding the child's illness compounded with guilt from a preivious child's death from the same disease. And some fools who jumped on this case to promote their own agenda. mbmbn

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