RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (Full Version)

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Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:43:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Im reading how the court case was to force the Drs to perform the trach. The baby's parents, Moe Maraachli and Sana Nader, have been asking London doctors to perform a tracheotomy so they can take Joseph home to die. They had done so with their daughter Zina, who died nine years ago from a condition nearly identical to Joseph's. But LHSC refused to perform the procedure, saying it's invasive and not part of palliative care. The hospital has vigorously defended its decision, saying the judgment was "sound, both medically and ethically." An independent Ontario tribunal, the Consent and Capacity Board, and a Superior Court judge both sided with LHSC. But the case sparked an outcry from U.S. pro-life and anti-euthanasia groups, who quickly organized to get Joseph into an American hospital. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/baby-joseph-tracheotomy-20110314-170000-065.html The trach was performed on the other child. I read this last night after I left the forum. None of you have wondered why it was asked for in the first place?

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:44:10 AM)
I know it was performed on the other child... the sister. And it was asked for so they could take the child home.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:45:58 AM)
quote: How do you know he isnt suffering? I don't know of any research that states it could be the case. That a vegetative state does in fact cause pain. If they are brain dead as people suggest wouldn't that negate them feeling pain since a major part of feeling sensation relies on the brain?

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:47:32 AM)
quote: And it was asked for so they could take the child home. And why would they have come to a trach? Why is it in the picture at all?

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:48:53 AM)
Its not the state that causes suffering. Do you have any proof he cannot feel?

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:50:28 AM)
quote: Do you have any proof he cannot feel? No more than you or anyone does that he does. So how about we leave terms like.."He's suffering" and so on out of the picture.

flcouple2009 -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:50:42 AM)
Lucy, This is it exactly for me. It would be great if you used to just help kids here who could use it. Instead they important a terminally ill child form Canada to make a political statement. I have no respect for the group or the hospital in St Louis. Let the child die in peace.

TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:51:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Even you admitted in your original post that our insurance companies do the same thing. But that doesn't "creep" you out? Yeah, RML, it does. I said it was shitty. If you were paying attention, you'd know that this is a question of where the final decision lies. quote: As usual, you are trying to play politics about an issue while pretending you are not. It is political, RML. It goes to the basic assumptions of the relationship between the individual and the state. I don't think "Bush sucks" brand water wings are rated to go out that far, though.

DomKen -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:51:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic From what I'm reading on this, Lucy, the parents actually had to go to court to stop the decision to remove life support. Is that how it works, up your way? That would be very different from how we do it here. We get some ugly fights, and ugly cases, but when it comes to pulling the plug, it requires the consent of the next of kin. No, it doesn't. There are many cases in which life support can be ended without the consent of the next of kin. Texas has passed a law allowing the hospital to decide and in most places the next of kin cannot override a living will or DNR.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:52:13 AM)
Symptoms and Signs Patients show no evidence of awareness of self or environment and cannot interact with other people. Purposeful responses to external stimuli are absent, as are language comprehension and expression. Signs of an intact reticular formation (eg, eye opening) and an intact brain stem (eg, reactive pupils, oculocephalic reflex) are present. Sleep-wake cycles occur but do not necessarily reflect a specific circadian rhythm and are not associated with the environment. More complex brain stem reflexes, including yawning, chewing, swallowing, and, uncommonly, guttural vocalizations, are also present. Arousal and startle reflexes may be preserved; eg, loud sounds or blinking with bright lights may elicit eye opening. Eyes may water and produce tears. Patients may appear to smile or frown. Spontaneous roving eye movements—usually slow, of constant velocity, and without saccadic jerks—may be misinterpreted as volitional tracking and can be misinterpreted by family members as evidence of awareness. Patients cannot react to visual threat and cannot follow commands. The limbs may move, but the only purposeful motor responses that occur are primitive (eg, grasping an object that contacts the hand). Pain usually elicits a motor response (typically decorticate or decerebrate posturing) but no purposeful avoidance. Patients have fecal and urinary incontinence. Cranial nerve and spinal reflexes are typically preserved. http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec16/ch212/ch212b.html

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:53:13 AM)
quote: No more than you or anyone does that he does. So how about we leave terms like.."He's suffering" and so on out of the picture. According to the experts, they can still feel pain.

rulemylife -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:53:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero This, for instance, is a great example of an argument that would indeed have some heft in support of the idea that special cases could at least partially be made for family in situation where the degree of grief and emotional torment can be said to potentially be higher than normal. In what case would the impending death of any family member not cause a great deal of grief and emotional torment? So, you are proposing a rating system? The hospitals will work extra hard if the grief level is an eight rather than a five?

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:55:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Symptoms and Signs Patients show no evidence of awareness of self or environment and cannot interact with other people. Purposeful responses to external stimuli are absent, as are language comprehension and expression. Signs of an intact reticular formation (eg, eye opening) and an intact brain stem (eg, reactive pupils, oculocephalic reflex) are present. Sleep-wake cycles occur but do not necessarily reflect a specific circadian rhythm and are not associated with the environment. More complex brain stem reflexes, including yawning, chewing, swallowing, and, uncommonly, guttural vocalizations, are also present. Arousal and startle reflexes may be preserved; eg, loud sounds or blinking with bright lights may elicit eye opening. Eyes may water and produce tears. Patients may appear to smile or frown. Spontaneous roving eye movements—usually slow, of constant velocity, and without saccadic jerks—may be misinterpreted as volitional tracking and can be misinterpreted by family members as evidence of awareness. Patients cannot react to visual threat and cannot follow commands. The limbs may move, but the only purposeful motor responses that occur are primitive (eg, grasping an object that contacts the hand). Pain usually elicits a motor response (typically decorticate or decerebrate posturing) but no purposeful avoidance. Patients have fecal and urinary incontinence. Cranial nerve and spinal reflexes are typically preserved. http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec16/ch212/ch212b.html Sounds like it didn't say a thing about whether or not they felt anything related to pain..In fact it leads me to believe these are all residual reactions only.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:56:09 AM)
If your arm is numb, you dont feel pain, you dont react. Reacting to a painful stimuli is a reaction indicating feeling.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 10:56:27 AM)
quote: According to the experts, they can still feel pain. Where does it say that? and where does it say it's ingrained with this particular disorder.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 11:02:05 AM)
The heading.. vegetative state... or did you miss that? His is a progressive neurodegenerative disease.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 11:06:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The heading.. vegetative state... or did you miss that? His is a progressive neurodegenerative disease. The point you seem to be missing is that there are a number of neurological disorders that cause no pain to speak of. How do YOU know he's feeling pain? Have you read something that specifically states so? So far from what I've read, there's no indication of it, so the use of the word suffering isn't warranted in a physical sense.

rulemylife -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 11:07:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Even you admitted in your original post that our insurance companies do the same thing. But that doesn't "creep" you out? Yeah, RML, it does. I said it was shitty. If you were paying attention, you'd know that this is a question of where the final decision lies. quote: As usual, you are trying to play politics about an issue while pretending you are not. It is political, RML. It goes to the basic assumptions of the relationship between the individual and the state. I don't think "Bush sucks" brand water wings are rated to go out that far, though. What about the relationship between the individual and the insurance companies? Or are we just going to pretend they don't make these same decisions even after you admitted they do. And what does Bush have to do with this, other than you bringing him in to try to politicize this even more than you already have. But your real concern is the baby? Right?

Lucylastic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 11:07:28 AM)
Rich, believe me, when I say for my family... I would much rather have docs try everything(as has been done here) than be cut off by some pencil dick pen pusher and bean counter in an insurance office deciding whats happening to my sick child. This isnt a normal situation, by any standard, we get mostly wonderful care and denial of invasive care in a terminal case is never an easy decision, the fact the courts had to take part is not down to a questionable situation that even one percent of the population has to go thru Political bollocks again.

TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/19/2011 11:20:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife But your real concern is the baby? Right? No. I agree with the doctors who think he's a cute potato. My question is whether the final say on euthanasia vs. heroic measures lies with the individual, or with the government. Sorry you don't like the thread title. I thought it was nicely eyecatching. As I also said in the OP, I'm sure some people would prefer to call them life panels, or just mash it into bureaucratic gobbledy gook, but a group of people, who aren't the family, getting the final say in end of life care needs to be called a spade. Or even a fucking shovel, if that's what it takes.

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