RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (Full Version)

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NihilusZero -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:04:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys At this stage in the story none of you ahve the first clue as to whether this is about "assuaging the emotional discomfort of the parents". Special pleading again. Do you have any more personal insight into the family? Because we can't just excuse a line of argument because one party may not know something when another party doesn't either. The whole issue is specifically about the comforting of the parents emotions as, (barring something infinitesimally unlikely) the fate of the child has already been sealed. We're just talking about whether it's the hospitals obligation to foot the bill to make the kin feel better about the inevitable.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:05:12 PM)
quote: So doctors are infallible and what the say is gospel? I know two people in my life who, if they hadn't went for second opinions, wouldn't be alive today. His case has been reviewed by drs in Canada, the US and Europe, according to the artilces. I think there have been more than enough second opinions.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:05:39 PM)
quote: I think that's awfully extreme, and I'm surprised that you would advocate that. Got a little emotional..It does happen from time to time.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:06:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: What way would that be? Well I don't know..That was my point. I'm not personally involved to know the real details nor am I a doctor. Yeah, same here. Tough one to argue, isn't it? No matter which side of the issue you're on. There's no outcome here that even remotely resembles anything like "winning." It's just a fucking heartbreaking bitch of a thing, no matter how you look at it.

NihilusZero -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:06:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: I think that's awfully extreme, and I'm surprised that you would advocate that. Got a little emotional..It does happen from time to time. Get it together, Neo!! [:D]

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:07:13 PM)
quote: Do you have any more personal insight into the family? Uh..No I don't..That was my point. None of us do.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:08:18 PM)
We do know the sister died from the same disorder. Imagine the guilt that alone presses on parents to do "everything possible".

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:08:19 PM)
quote: Yeah, same here. Tough one to argue, isn't it? No matter which side of the issue you're on. There's no outcome here that even remotely resembles anything like "winning." It's just a fucking heartbreaking bitch of a thing, no matter how you look at it. Yeah it's really sad.

NihilusZero -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:09:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda Yeah, same here. Tough one to argue, isn't it? No matter which side of the issue you're on. There's no outcome here that even remotely resembles anything like "winning." It's just a fucking heartbreaking bitch of a thing, no matter how you look at it. nod And despite my probably clinical way of describing the situation (and the fact I'd probably side with "no" as an answer) I think the issue of whether hospitals have some/all/any (?) responsibility in funding the comfort of grieving family of a patient is actually one where substantial arguments could be made for on either side.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:09:20 PM)
quote: We do know the sister died from the same disorder. Imagine the guilt that alone presses on parents to do "everything possible". I'd rather not.

Icarys -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:10:29 PM)
Off to bed.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:10:54 PM)
But you have too to realize where the parents are coming from. I dont blame them for how they feel. I dont blame them for grasping at straws to try and protect their child. They see a living, breathing infant. The medical community does not.

NihilusZero -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:11:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl We do know the sister died from the same disorder. Imagine the guilt that alone presses on parents to do "everything possible". This, for instance, is a great example of an argument that would indeed have some heft in support of the idea that special cases could at least partially be made for family in situation where the degree of grief and emotional torment can be said to potentially be higher than normal. Then again...who would dare step onto the minefield of trying to put a rating system on which horrible events are more painful than others if we even tried to look at it that way?

TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:13:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: The parent, or the State? You are forgetting the recommendations of the specialists No, I'm not, Tazzy. I'm asking who makes the final decision from those recommendations.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:19:04 PM)
It should be an agreement among all. Seldom happens though. Then you look at who has a vested interest, and in what way. The Drs lose, or gain, nothing from doing this procedure. The courts win or lose nothing by agreeing. The parents win their child for a little while longer. Then comes the battles for treatment when pneumonia sets in, when the tube slips, when infection at the site takes over. In the end, sadly, they will lose their child. Many Drs have revieqed his case. They finally found a hospital that would take him.... a religion based hospital. They are feeding on the parents guilt to make a political statement. To me, that is the true abuse in all this.

TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 10:51:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Two scenarios to consider: (a) An elderly, dying man has left clear instructions, including a DNR order, about not wanting heroic measures to prolong his life. His family, though, can't bear to let go and refuse to allow him to be taken off life support. Should the family prevail over the patient's clearly expressed wishes? (b) A teen girl, a top student with good prospects, gets pregnant. The parents think having the baby will derail her from the path to success. They want her to abort. Should their wishes prevail? I'm going to have to go with a "no" on both, DC. The right to choose needs to rest with the individual, or, absent guidance, with the next of kin. It's a great big grey area, I know, and lots of values come into play, but this seems pretty well lit, from my perspective.

TheHeretic -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 11:07:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The parents win their child for a little while longer. Then comes the battles for treatment when pneumonia sets in, when the tube slips, when infection at the site takes over. In the end, sadly, they will lose their child. And I think they have the right to take their family down that path, Tazzy. The kid is vegetative. He doesn't care. It seems wrong to me for the decision to be dictated by some 'board,' as seems to be the case here.

tazzygirl -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 11:13:09 PM)
Its not the board who decided. They upheld the decision of the specialists not to do anything more.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 11:44:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: This wasnt a medical emergency. It strikes me as a publicity stunt, U.S. culture warriors using a vegetative, dying baby as a prop. You mean like Terry Schiavo? No doubt Icarus would have kept her hooked up to the machines just in case the baby Jeebus came down and healed her. Goddamned rat-wankers piss and moan about how the new Health Care Plan will cost them so much money, all the while stealing it from me in the form of higher premiums because they all think they are smarter than the doctors.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted (3/18/2011 11:50:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW I cannot know how parents would feel in such a situation. I would NEVER, want to be the person telling them, we cannot agree to do this, because we feel it is further torture to your little one, whose spirit is no longer with us. I'll have you know, that poor, fairly healthy, unisured people, are ascribed death sentences every day in the US, if they don't live close to a clinic, and cannot get to the hospital in time, when an emergency occurs. This discussion is for me, a lot like the pro-lifers. There are plenty of poor, dying, already out, and living little ones in the world they don't care to save, but... M Goddamned right. Good post.

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